Confused between Stabiliser, PC UPS and home UPS for AVR -Seeking help.

[newlash09]

As a general rule, I would not run an AVR or any audio gear under power conditioning device or a UPS of any kind, unless the line itself is so bad or unstable. For surge, use a good quality surge protector strip from Belkin( The most expensive one. I know this one works as I have used it)). If voltage does not fluctuate too far off the mark, your audio gear will run just fine. Keep the audio power source on a separate phase and one that isn't on load from from high surge devices such as Air Conditioner, Water Heater, Water Pump, etc. Most Metro and Metropolitan cities in India have fairly good and stable power today.

I used to live in Bangalore. Power was quite reliable (Apart from the odd shut down) and I did not use any power or surge devices for my HT. I did use a cheap surge protector for my Hi Fi and that was primarily cause there were insufficient number of sockets for me to plug in my gear.

Switch off AV gear at the plug overnight or when it is going to be left unused for a while. Never ever leave it on stand by for extended period. You may have to deal with some inconvenience over HDMI hand shake but I'd rather deal with waiting a few minutes versus the risk of leaving the devices in Stand By. Even with a surge protector in front of your AV devices, there is still a small risk of the surge protection device not acting fast enough to a surge.

I fully agree with the above. I recently spoke to a naim dealer in uk ( signals hifi in Ipswich ) regarding power conditioning and mains filtering. He was completely against using one, as he found even the top of the line ones rob off dynamics. His advise was to get a dedicated mains line for the hifi first. And even if this doesnt help, next was to add a high quality 1:1 ratio isolation transformer. Even better if we can get 2 isolation transformer on 2 dedicated lines from mains, so that sources and high power amps can run off on two dedicated power rails.

So that is something I intend to try in my next vacations. Plus I will be adding a CVT to supply both the isolation transformers. Luckily my mains box is in the corridor outside my flat in my building complex. So I plan on installing these large CVT and isolation transformers in the corridor. And then run dedicated lines into my room. Will post back with my observations if it is really worth the pain

 

[Rosenarayanappa]

I am planning on simply using v guard stabilizer and belkin spike buster. Rega amp, q acoustics concept 20 speakers. Searching for good dac. Can't get dedicated power line in rented house. Will isolation transformer help? Where do I find one please. Any recommendations?

 

[Love4sound]

AVR: Kenwood
Inverter: Luminous Zelio

Ok is the the 1700 rated model? And can you confirm if this mode won’t cause the avr to reboot in a power cut cause in the same thread one person says his avr restarts using luminous inverter

 

[jsmithe]

Ok is the the 1700 rated model? And can you confirm if this mode won’t cause the avr to reboot in a power cut cause in the same thread one person says his avr restarts using luminous inverter

Yes, no AVR restarts through power cuts. It is usually, but perhaps not always true that if a PC can survive a power failure when backed by an inverter in UPS mode, an AVR should too. To be absolutely sure, see if you can have a dealer demo a unit for you to verify whether your AVR stays on via inverter when there is a mains failure.

Please be aware that you shouldn't go by Luminous model numbers as a VA rating guide. The 1700 in Luminous Zelio 1700 is not the VA rating. Browse the Luminous website and you'll see that the above is actually a 1500VA inverter with a rated power of 1260W. Sum up the power draw of your equipment that you will be running on inverter during a power failure to arrive at a VA/Watts rating and then add a bit of a buffer. The power draw of your equipment in watts will either be labeled on the equipment or you can roughly(ignoring the Power Factor[PF]) work it out as W = VxA.

 

[newlash09]

I am planning on simply using v guard stabilizer and belkin spike buster. Rega amp, q acoustics concept 20 speakers. Searching for good dac. Can't get dedicated power line in rented house. Will isolation transformer help? Where do I find one please. Any recommendations?

Hi again.. good evening.

I have posted an ad in indiamart for isolation trnformer and have received a lot of offers. But the pricing doesnt seem to be consistent. There prices ranging from 10k to 40k for a 5Kva isolation transformer. Will have to speak to the suppliers in person to see what the difference is. Maybe you can also post your query there and see. All the best

 

[Love4sound]

Yes, no AVR restarts through power cuts. It is usually, but perhaps not always true that if a PC can survive a power failure when backed by an inverter in UPS mode, an AVR should too. To be absolutely sure, see if you can have a dealer demo a unit for you to verify whether your AVR stays on via inverter when there is a mains failure.

Please be aware that you shouldn't go by Luminous model numbers as a VA rating guide. The 1700 in Luminous Zelio 1700 is not the VA rating. Browse the Luminous website and you'll see that the above is actually a 1500VA inverter with a rated power of 1260W. Sum up the power draw of your equipment that you will be running on inverter during a power failure to arrive at a VA/Watts rating and then add a bit of a buffer. The power draw of your equipment in watts will either be labeled on the equipment or you can roughly(ignoring the Power Factor[PF]) work it out as W = VxA.

Yeah I understood the rating calculation part. But sorry to ask U so many questions. I didn’t understand ur response. You hav said yes,no avr restarts. So not sure what the answer was. I want to know if ur avr restarts when there is a power cut. If inverter in ups mode still can’t manage to keep the avr on during a power cut then I need to check other models. Some inverters does let u switch modes. In inverter mode yeah the avr should restart but in ups mode it shouldn’t

 

[vij]

Yes, no AVR restarts through power cuts. It is usually, but perhaps not always true that if a PC can survive a power failure when backed by an inverter in UPS mode, an AVR should too. To be absolutely sure, see if you can have a dealer demo a unit for you to verify whether your AVR stays on via inverter when there is a mains failure.

I agree..
After my online ups conked off, I use microtek sebz 1700(for whole house)and my PC and Projector stays put without issues. But the receiver restarts.

 

[jsmithe]

But sorry to ask U so many questions.

Not a problem. That's what a forum is for.

I want to know if ur avr restarts when there is a power cut.

I should have been clearer. In my case, no AVR restart during switch over from mains to inverter.

There are many variables as to why some AVRs restart with some inverters but others don't. To be absolutely sure, find an inverter dealer who will allow you to check. Maybe you can carry in your AVR to the dealers place for a demo or get them to test at your place or find someone(friend / relative etc.) in your city who will agree to testing with your AVR.

If you have a projector with a lamp then you need backup power to safely shut down the projector when there is a power failure to avoid damage to the lamp. For AVRs, TVs etc. what you are looking at is protection from voltage fluctuations which an inverter only provides to a rather minimal extent. For protection from over-voltage / under-voltage the best option is a cut-off device with a servo / CVT / isolation transformer going to your equipment.

 

[vij]

It appears Luminous has lower transfer time and is better suited for receivers compared to microtek. I tried an older luminous (not zelio) and the receiver did not restart.

 

[Love4sound]

Not a problem. That's what a forum is for.


I should have been clearer. In my case, no AVR restart during switch over from mains to inverter.

There are many variables as to why some AVRs restart with some inverters but others don't. To be absolutely sure, find an inverter dealer who will allow you to check. Maybe you can carry in your AVR to the dealers place for a demo or get them to test at your place or find someone(friend / relative etc.) in your city who will agree to testing with your AVR.

If you have a projector with a lamp then you need backup power to safely shut down the projector when there is a power failure to avoid damage to the lamp. For AVRs, TVs etc. what you are looking at is protection from voltage fluctuations which an inverter only provides to a rather minimal extent. For protection from over-voltage / under-voltage the best option is a cut-off device with a servo / CVT / isolation transformer going to your equipment.

Oh good to know that your AVR does not restart. May be I will try the 2kv model

 

[jsmithe]

Oh good to know that your AVR does not restart. May be I will try the 2kv model

Not sure about your Denon and whether it will restart or not. Like the other FM said, if the switch over is not fast enough such that the AVR detects it as a power loss the AVR will restart regardless of the VA rating of the inverter. I'd suggest checking with the AVR dealer who recommended you to use a UPS as to what inverter they are sure will avoid restart of your Denon.

 

[Love4sound]

Not sure about your Denon and whether it will restart or not. Like the other FM said, if the switch over is not fast enough such that the AVR detects it as a power loss the AVR will restart regardless of the VA rating of the inverter. I'd suggest checking with the AVR dealer who recommended you to use a UPS as to what inverter they are sure will avoid restart of your Denon.

Yeah thanks I already spoke with few dealers. Some have agreed for a demo. I will check and make the purchase

 

[jsmithe]

Yeah thanks I already spoke with few dealers. Some have agreed for a demo. I will check and make the purchase

Good move. Please post your findings.

 

[vinyl]

I am planning on simply using v guard stabilizer and belkin spike buster. Rega amp, q acoustics concept 20 speakers. Searching for good dac. Can't get dedicated power line in rented house. Will isolation transformer help? Where do I find one please. Any recommendations?

Relay stabilizers are not meant for audio systems. If you must use a stabilizer, then it has to be a servo, but without those RFI and EMI filters.
Isolation transformer is an absolute essential.

 

[ajuvignesh]

Even I am inclined towards this option. Let me read more. Average power usage of my AVR is around 35W to 55W, not sure if it is correct (I got this from smart plug real time power usage). So, I can get away with APC 600va computer UPS I guess.

Please don't. I think, this ups outputs less than 220V during backup mode. I have no device to check the voltage output but my table fan showed some speed variations in backup mode.

 

[Love4sound]

Good move. Please post your findings.

I did so much research on products and concluded not to go for any ups.Even the dealers are not clear. Volumate chennai says an offline ups is a must for avr. When i went to Ritchie street to get an offline ups the dealer there said please dont go for offline ups for HT systems and go for Online ups. I checked with audioholics and he showed Denon and other brands sealed box where there are stickers by the distributors stating warranty barred if ups used. So for now i am using belkin surge protector and v guard stabilizer and decided to risk using the system without any power back up. But i used my yamaha yht 299 for 3 years connected to an offline ups. Below is the link to the model. The avr is 4 years old is still functioning at my friends place and hasn't had a single problem so far.

https://www.amazon.in/CyberPower-BU...MIop6Aqreq4AIVmCQrCh1IgwYWEAYYASABEgI6SPD_BwE

 

[raghupb]

I did so much research on products and concluded not to go for any ups.Even the dealers are not clear. Volumate chennai says an offline ups is a must for avr. When i went to Ritchie street to get an offline ups the dealer there said please dont go for offline ups for HT systems and go for Online ups. I checked with audioholics and he showed Denon and other brands sealed box where there are stickers by the distributors stating warranty barred if ups used. So for now i am using belkin surge protector and v guard stabilizer and decided to risk using the system without any power back up. But i used my yamaha yht 299 for 3 years connected to an offline ups. Below is the link to the model. The avr is 4 years old is still functioning at my friends place and hasn't had a single problem so far.

https://www.amazon.in/CyberPower-BU...MIop6Aqreq4AIVmCQrCh1IgwYWEAYYASABEgI6SPD_BwE

Surprised at this. There may be issues if the UPS is a modified square-ware type.
I have been using MicroTek 850SEBz (sinewave/offline) for 8+ years. No issues.
During power outage (switch from mains to battery):
TV flickers off and comes on
IA needs to be restarted
AVR stays on
Power Amps stay on
Sub (is finicky; sometimes is stays on)
All other devices on AV rack stay on

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[rahul_muzik]

Power conditioner types and limitations:
* Passive-type filters
The least expensive type of power conditioner, these shunt high frequency noise components away - through a capacitor to ground. These offer very basic noise-reduction capabilities.
* Balanced transformer
Offering noise reduction superior to passive inductor-capacitor models (above), this style of power conditioner features an isolation balanced transformer which balances AC power feed and produces noise reduction far better suited for audio and video components. Much pricier than passive-type filters, they are also larger, heavier, and noisier, and offer limited power delivery due to the damping effect of the balancing transformer.
* AC regenerative types
Even larger and pricier, AC regenerative type conditioners throw off a lot of heat in operation, but better address the problems associated with noise in the audio and video spectrum, working similarly to a power generator to regulate AC voltage, correct waveform symmetry (distortion), and reduce or eliminate lower order harmonic noise (noise generated from the surrounding neighborhood to within your home resulting from uneven or clipped loads in the AC line) known to be at the center of these issues. These high-end conditioners use automatic voltage stabilization circuitry with a microprocessor controlled variable transformer, delivering full, completely new AC voltage to your entertainment system regardless of fluctuations or surges that is nearly noise-free.

 

[arunkvivek]

I was speaking to a dealer and he was mentioning that home inverters are no-no for AVRs. Some brands explicitly say that warranty is void if inverter is used (I saw stickers on Yamaha AVR boxes mentioning so) and some refuse at the time of service. The home inverters seem to have an issue with frequency which is causing the problem per the dealer (I was scared with all the units of measurement of electricity).
He was suggesting to use online UPS and power off the systems. I was speaking to Vertex guys and they said that online UPS are better as they have option to regulate the frequency. Their models have isolation transformer built in as well. The cost of their online UPS though was too expensive for me. Perplexed now!!

 

[Abhilash2211]

In my view, this is the biggest problem. Unfortunately; We have to work with what we've got.

Why do you have an inverter when there is generator back up?

You should take out the generator, inverter, smart plug (I am not sure what this even does to help clean up power) from the chain. They are all going to add more noise in the line. Even if the stabilizer if you can but then you are facing fluctuations, which I find strange for Bangalore.

It now feels like the cleanest and more stable source of power is the line for your higher energy devices.

On the other hand, I also wonder if it makes much sense to do all this for something like a HTIB solution.

As a general rule, I would not run an AVR or any audio gear under power conditioning device or a UPS of any kind, unless the line itself is so bad or unstable. For surge, use a good quality surge protector strip from Belkin( The most expensive one. I know this one works as I have used it)). If voltage does not fluctuate too far off the mark, your audio gear will run just fine. Keep the audio power source on a separate phase and one that isn't on load from from high surge devices such as Air Conditioner, Water Heater, Water Pump, etc. Most Metro and Metropolitan cities in India have fairly good and stable power today.

I used to live in Bangalore. Power was quite reliable (Apart from the odd shut down) and I did not use any power or surge devices for my HT. I did use a cheap surge protector for my Hi Fi and that was primarily cause there were insufficient number of sockets for me to plug in my gear.

Switch off AV gear at the plug overnight or when it is going to be left unused for a while. Never ever leave it on stand by for extended period. You may have to deal with some inconvenience over HDMI hand shake but I'd rather deal with waiting a few minutes versus the risk of leaving the devices in Stand By. Even with a surge protector in front of your AV devices, there is still a small risk of the surge protection device not acting fast enough to a surge.

Brother, any kind of power conditioning device means no voltage stabilizer also... Correct ?