Why Chi-Fi Matters And Can No longer be Used in a Pejorative Sense

JaideepGiridhar

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Let me get the caveats out of the way first: No speakers to speak of, no solid state amplification components that stand out, no analogue sources to harp on, no cabling that warrants mention, and no technological innovation that qualifies as pathbreaking.
If you get past those riders and examine what the Chinese have achieved over the past decade by way of products that elevate the upstream (digital) segment of audio, I’d think they score on five counts: build quality, price, engineering, technology (there’s a qualifier here that I’ll get to), and marketing.
First, build quality: the products that come to mind are Denafrips, LHY, Lumin, Silent Angel, Line Magnetic, Matrix Audio and HiFi Rose. All of these match brawn with the best of what the rest of the world has to offer without having to scrimp on any aspect of the nuts and bolts that constitute the gear they produce.
Second, because they’re either proximate to the point of manufacture, or they sell direct to customer, these producers peg costs down to levels that are untenable for manufacturers elsewhere in the world (almost all of whom locate their production in Mainland China or (geo-politics apart) Taiwan – which is great for us, of course.
Third, and this is intricately linked to the point that follows (and, to a certain extent, the point above), all the manufacturers I’ve listed craft products that are engineered to exacting specifications – milled aluminium blocks, point-to-point wiring, immaculately laid-out circuit boards, thoughtful technical design, and parts of the highest order of quality.
Fourth, and this is where it gets a little murky, the technology employed in all their products – from pre-war-design amplifiers to R2R DACs to silent-as-mice streamers, stands up to the many of the big-hitters from the west. The nebulousness issues not so much from the salience of the technological prowess contained within the equipment as it does from the provenance of innovation – I’m not sure any one of these manufacturers can lay claim to breakthroughs like ring DACs, FPGA-driven audio conversion, word-clocking, I2S ports or even source formats like SACD, DSD or MQA. They’ve addressed this by what the Chinese do best (reverse-engineer, to use a banal term, or Anu Malik-to-kingdom-come, to be blunt).
Fifth, I think outfits like Vin Shine, Kitsune and Beatechnik (which is a breakaway firm, I think), have achieved as much for these brands as the heavies like McIntosh and Focal have been able to do with their far greater marketing might.
PS: I’d like to add a small, non-patriotic note; why is it that, despite all the noise about self-reliance, I cannot locate a single Indian audio company that compares to what the Chinese have achieved?
 
The world is changing as we see it :)

The western component manufacturers have established the current hifi model of importers, distributers and dealers with sufficient margins to keep everything well oiled. And to push marketing through a select list of publications, who claimed to be purveyors of the finest sound.

But the walls are coming down with the advent of direct sales, and online reviews. And the western model is unable to adapt with its heavy reliance on brick and mortar dealers, who honestly have a place in the industry and are very relevant as the investment creeps into the silly money territory.

But at the more affordable end of the market, the Chinese are indeed killing everything else. Vinshine has a 15% margin on every sale. Compare that to almost 50 to 60 % margin that the retail model entails, and that difference in pricing can be ploughed back into the product to give better build and quality of parts.

When we see any of the present high end brands, it took a real innovation to establish them. That is where the challenge stands for the Chinese. To bring some real innovation that will shift the goal posts and establish a brand that can last a few decades. Apart from Line magnetic and Denafrips, no one else is touching the 10 year mark in the international market, so it still remains to be seen, how many are still standing by 2030.
 
Apart from Line magnetic and Denafrips, no one else is touching the 10 year mark in the international market, so it still remains to be seen, how many are still standing by 2030.
Before these, there was SMSL, Cayin, Jolida, Aurum Cantus etc etc. I used to travel frequently to Shanghai in the early 2000's, and I have seen the evolution of Chinese audio first hand. In fact some Aurum Cantus products were imported by Red Rose Audio (Owned by Mark Levinson - The man) and rebranded and sold in a high end store in Manhattan, NY at huge mark ups. The Chinese have always been around at-least for the last 2 decades.
Cheers,
Sid
 
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cannot locate a single Indian audio company that compares to what the Chinese have achieved?
My guess is the audio designers in India have chosen a “Boutique-Handcrafted” approach rather than “big volume-mass market” approach to audiophile products (Rethm, Acoustic Portrait, Cadence, Lyrita, Sonodyne, and more recently Indiq audio and O&B)
Engineers who design brilliant products are often oblivious of their lack of skill and expertise in marketing and management. They often tend to be protective of their creations and suspicious of marketing and sales experts who can help them.
Another thought: A growing Audiophile product sales market maybe linked to the overall robustness of the economy and perceptions of stability.
Another: The herd mentality (everywhere) could explain the rush for HT with few regarding good quality home two channel stereo music as a lifestyle brag. I have not seen any big brand name ambassadors (Shah Rukh, A Bachhan, Alia, Samantha 😎) and such endorsing audiophile stereo products in India…. Yet.
IMG_0741.jpeg
As we see all around us a close collaboration between producers, sales experts and big money for success.😄
 
I strongly disagree. I have been dealing with Chi-fi for years now and while there are some brands which are genuinely good, the others just don't hold up well in the long run. Your argument regarding ChiFi using small amounts of resources in comparison to the western brands is simply not true. ChiFi brands are much more cunning and they advertise in more shrewd ways. Reviewers are bought off, they are constantly sent free review units in return of positive ratings. The moment you put out even a lukewarm review they will threaten to cut off supply of future review units. And this is a big no no as it will jeopardize a reviewer's livelihood as they earn money by selling review units. The iem and headphone market has been flooded by chifi and almost all of them are wrought with driver failures, channel imbalances, absolutely horrid tuning and terrible customer service. Which brings me to the next point: they pay truckloads to dealers to promote their subpar stuff, and should you need any service in the future you have to go through them which in turn is another pain. The biggest headphone brand from China- Hifiman has utter garbage build quality and choice of materials are terrible that don't even last 3 years. Even if they do they look like something that survived a nuclear fallout. They "collaborate" with reviewers to come out with custom tunings so as to appease said reviewers' audience target. They only care about one thing- MOVE UNITS. And not to mention they post false specs (mostly about power ratings) and mislead the audience. Topping headphone amps are infamous for frying headphones (which they have now fixed), quoting obscene (and misleading) power output figures. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I review myself (by no means a full timer) and I have friends who also review chifi stuff (mainly iems, hp amps, dacs etc) and even they have shared the same experience. There is more to a product than a fancy heavy metal chassis filled with (gimmicky) "features".
Their headphone amps are all about putting a million op-amps in parallel and then applying a crap ton of negative feedback for it to measure good- cause that's what they care. They need ASR's approval. I have used such said amps from Topping and SMSL and while they do work, they sound either very thin and sterile or extremely boring. Their designs are primitive usually.
That being said, they have nailed DACs for sure. Which is saying something! So, credit where credit is due!
And regarding indian brands not holding a candle to anything that came out of China is just a hilarious statement. Out of all the indian brands I have encountered, most of them are very positive and much more soundly designed with proper support. The chinese historically haven't done anything innovative in audio and neither did India, it all came from the west. As you said, they are best at "reverse engineering" (read: copy, or cheaply mimic). You cannot buy innovation, that is why they buy off the companies and the rest is history (case in point: tannoy).
That being said, there are a few brands like Fiio for example who are totally transparent and honest in what they market. I am not saying they are the only company from China to do that, there are some good serious brands out there as well (like the ones you have mentioned). But they are uncommon, and in the grand scheme of things ChiFi is not to be trusted.
 
there are a few brands like Fiio for example who are totally transparent and honest in what they market. I am not saying they are the only company from China to do that, there are some good serious brands out there as well (like the ones you have mentioned). But they are uncommon, and in the grand scheme of things ChiFi is not to be trusted.

That is pretty much describing the broader hifi space irrespective of geography. Parts of it may be better or worse but the cautious approach to what brands claim holds for the space as a whole
 
Yes. And there are many reports of their quality taking a drop after that.
Isn't Tannoy - Music Tribe? The same company as Behringer? They own a bunch of big brands - TC electronics, Tannoy, Behringer. I thought they were a German company or something. A quick search says Phillipines?
 
Isn't Tannoy - Music Tribe? The same company as Behringer? They own a bunch of big brands - TC electronics, Tannoy, Behringer. I thought they were a German company or something. A quick search says Phillipines?
The Filipinos look Oriental hence Chinese. Same same! :p
 
Isn't Tannoy - Music Tribe? The same company as Behringer? They own a bunch of big brands - TC electronics, Tannoy, Behringer. I thought they were a German company or something. A quick search says Phillipines?
Correction on my part - the drivers for Tannoy are made in China since the last few years.
But the point is, if a big brand is bought out by the Chinese, the quality almost always takes a big hit due to cost cutting. This is not only true in audio but in every field.
 
But the point is, if a big brand is bought out by the Chinese, the quality almost always takes a big hit due to cost cutting. This is not only true in audio but in every field.
this depends on the buyer. Brands like Wharfedale, Mission and Audiolab are all part of IAG (a Chinese company) and continue to make good products. In contrast, private equity style buyers in Hifi audio erode the ethos of a lot of brands they buy.
 
Correction on my part - the drivers for Tannoy are made in China since the last few years.
But the point is, if a big brand is bought out by the Chinese, the quality almost always takes a big hit due to cost cutting. This is not only true in audio but in every field.
And most of those companies wouldn’t have survived if it was not for Chinese acquisition's
 
Let me get the caveats out of the way first: No speakers to speak of, no solid state amplification components that stand out, no analogue sources to harp on, no cabling that warrants mention, and no technological innovation that qualifies as pathbreaking.
If you get past those riders and examine what the Chinese have achieved over the past decade by way of products that elevate the upstream (digital) segment of audio, I’d think they score on five counts: build quality, price, engineering, technology (there’s a qualifier here that I’ll get to), and marketing.
First, build quality: the products that come to mind are Denafrips, LHY, Lumin, Silent Angel, Line Magnetic, Matrix Audio and HiFi Rose. All of these match brawn with the best of what the rest of the world has to offer without having to scrimp on any aspect of the nuts and bolts that constitute the gear they produce.
Second, because they’re either proximate to the point of manufacture, or they sell direct to customer, these producers peg costs down to levels that are untenable for manufacturers elsewhere in the world (almost all of whom locate their production in Mainland China or (geo-politics apart) Taiwan – which is great for us, of course.
Third, and this is intricately linked to the point that follows (and, to a certain extent, the point above), all the manufacturers I’ve listed craft products that are engineered to exacting specifications – milled aluminium blocks, point-to-point wiring, immaculately laid-out circuit boards, thoughtful technical design, and parts of the highest order of quality.
Fourth, and this is where it gets a little murky, the technology employed in all their products – from pre-war-design amplifiers to R2R DACs to silent-as-mice streamers, stands up to the many of the big-hitters from the west. The nebulousness issues not so much from the salience of the technological prowess contained within the equipment as it does from the provenance of innovation – I’m not sure any one of these manufacturers can lay claim to breakthroughs like ring DACs, FPGA-driven audio conversion, word-clocking, I2S ports or even source formats like SACD, DSD or MQA. They’ve addressed this by what the Chinese do best (reverse-engineer, to use a banal term, or Anu Malik-to-kingdom-come, to be blunt).
Fifth, I think outfits like Vin Shine, Kitsune and Beatechnik (which is a breakaway firm, I think), have achieved as much for these brands as the heavies like McIntosh and Focal have been able to do with their far greater marketing might.
PS: I’d like to add a small, non-patriotic note; why is it that, despite all the noise about self-reliance, I cannot locate a single Indian audio company that compares to what the Chinese have achieved?
China is an authoritarian state ruled by a very powerful central government.
Nearly 40 years ago, in 1979, China implemented economic reforms and trade liberalisation.
America played a big role in making them the Factory Of The World.
China is a Champion Absorber of technology, in popular terms copy cat, and they've mastered it and ousted their Masters.
They are ruthlessly efficient in getting (achieving is for normals) their goals.

The Make in India initiative was launched in September 2014. Devised to transform India into a global design and manufacturing hub.
In less than a decade, India's Defence Exports have touched a record $2.63 Billion- grown by 21 times in the last decade. We're the world's 2nd largest manufacturer of mobile phones, exported mobiles worth $15 Billion.
Automobiles, electronics, renewable energy, textiles, toys are the highly growing sectors.
Our Exports stood at $762 Billion in the previous fiscal year.
Make in India 2.0 will be focusing on 27 sectors, where 10 champion sectors will get the top priority. Turning into a global hub for manufacturing, research and innovation. Integration of India in the global supply chain.

China has a huge skilled workforce and superior infrastructure.
The productivity of our factories is low and workers have insufficient skills.

Vocal for Local is the clarion call of the Central Government, mocked and not adopted by many of our state governments.
In 10 years the past mistakes have been corrected- end of the Licence Raj.
Ease of doing business policies, Digital Economy and the Startup India Initiative offers multiple schemes to assist startups with financial and infrastructural support.
Chinese Achievements are the result of smart work of the Chinese citizens and the nationalist policies of Chinese government.

Our Vote-Bank Politics dominated Democracy has a highly corrupt ecosystem. Here Secularism is above Nationalism.
Such Leaders have kept India underdeveloped for decades, wasting our rich natural resources and huge manpower.

Our Private Sector companies have somehow not focused on the Audio Equipments production.
Big Corporates are not at all involved.
Is it not a profitable enough proposition for them? Maybe they find it too trivial!
By 2026, India's semiconductor industry will achieve a market value of $55 Billion.
By then we can expect superior In-Fi amps in our home.
Sorry for being too patriotic and going off-topic.
 
China is an authoritarian state ruled by a very powerful central government.
Nearly 40 years ago, in 1979, China implemented economic reforms and trade liberalisation.
America played a big role in making them the Factory Of The World.
China is a Champion Absorber of technology, in popular terms copy cat, and they've mastered it and ousted their Masters.
They are ruthlessly efficient in getting (achieving is for normals) their goals.

The Make in India initiative was launched in September 2014. Devised to transform India into a global design and manufacturing hub.
In less than a decade, India's Defence Exports have touched a record $2.63 Billion- grown by 21 times in the last decade. We're the world's 2nd largest manufacturer of mobile phones, exported mobiles worth $15 Billion.
Automobiles, electronics, renewable energy, textiles, toys are the highly growing sectors.
Our Exports stood at $762 Billion in the previous fiscal year.
Make in India 2.0 will be focusing on 27 sectors, where 10 champion sectors will get the top priority. Turning into a global hub for manufacturing, research and innovation. Integration of India in the global supply chain.

China has a huge skilled workforce and superior infrastructure.
The productivity of our factories is low and workers have insufficient skills.

Vocal for Local is the clarion call of the Central Government, mocked and not adopted by many of our state governments.
In 10 years the past mistakes have been corrected- end of the Licence Raj.
Ease of doing business policies, Digital Economy and the Startup India Initiative offers multiple schemes to assist startups with financial and infrastructural support.
Chinese Achievements are the result of smart work of the Chinese citizens and the nationalist policies of Chinese government.

Our Vote-Bank Politics dominated Democracy has a highly corrupt ecosystem. Here Secularism is above Nationalism.
Such Leaders have kept India underdeveloped for decades, wasting our rich natural resources and huge manpower.

Our Private Sector companies have somehow not focused on the Audio Equipments production.
Big Corporates are not at all involved.
Is it not a profitable enough proposition for them? Maybe they find it too trivial!
By 2026, India's semiconductor industry will achieve a market value of $55 Billion.
By then we can expect superior In-Fi amps in our home.
Sorry for being too patriotic and going off-topic.
Loved the optimism in your post. Fondly hope it is true too :p. Especially the qouted figures 🤣

Having said that, Iam confused by the nationalism vs secularism context. I dont want to add any hue of politics to our forum here, but I respect our core values of secularism, freedom of press, right to speech and protest. And iam just as nationalistic as the next guy. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that any of the above values are counter intuitive to nationalism or industrial growth of the country.

Let me narrate a true conversation, I had with a Hongkongoner when I asked him why they hated the Chinese. He said " you can bring home a cow, kill its calf , milk it twice a day. Even thrash it from time to time. Yet it will never leave your home even when you leave the gate open, because it knows it will get fed there. The chinese are like cows. They have abandoned every trait and value that makes us human and elevates us above animals, only because as long as they keep quiet and endure their eroded rights and liberties, the Chinese government will leave them alone to prosper".

Iam aware that cow is a holy animal, but Iam not prepared to turn into one, irrespective of the claimed or real benefits 🤣
 
Having said that, Iam confused by the nationalism vs secularism context. I dont want to add any hue of politics to our forum here, but I respect our core values of secularism, freedom of press, right to speech and protest. And iam just as nationalistic as the next guy. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that any of the above values are counter intuitive to nationalism or industrial growth of the country.
Wanted to say the same, but you said it. I would like to add that secularism, freedom of speech, etc are also the reason why we grew instead of regressing like our western neighbour.

Personally I don't care about any of the 'isms. They are just tools invented to toe the line of leaders. We are all human beings with artificial borders, religion, language, cultures, food habits separating us.

 
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This thread is in danger of veering into a full fledged polarised political argument as in common in other social media platforms nowadays.
As we know almost everyone has an opinion and no one wins or changes their mind in such emotionally charged discussions.
But we can salvage it by keeping it focused on Audio equipment matters.
 
Loved the optimism in your post. Fondly hope it is true too :p. Especially the qouted figures 🤣

Having said that, Iam confused by the nationalism vs secularism context. I dont want to add any hue of politics to our forum here, but I respect our core values of secularism, freedom of press, right to speech and protest. And iam just as nationalistic as the next guy. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that any of the above values are counter intuitive to nationalism or industrial growth of the country.

Let me narrate a true conversation, I had with a Hongkongoner when I asked him why they hated the Chinese. He said " you can bring home a cow, kill its calf , milk it twice a day. Even thrash it from time to time. Yet it will never leave your home even when you leave the gate open, because it knows it will get fed there. The chinese are like cows. They have abandoned every trait and value that makes us human and elevates us above animals, only because as long as they keep quiet and endure their eroded rights and liberties, the Chinese government will leave them alone to prosper".

Iam aware that cow is a holy animal, but Iam not prepared to turn into one, irrespective of the claimed or real benefits 🤣
Happy Mother's Day.
Bharat Mata Ki Jai.
I'm proud of our Golden Heritage.
We are the pioneers in sound engineering.
 
This thread is in danger of veering into a full fledged polarised political argument as in common in other social media platforms nowadays.
As we know almost everyone has an opinion and no one wins or changes their mind in such emotionally charged discussions.
But we can salvage it by keeping it focused on Audio equipment matters.
I fully agree sir..I abandoned any thoughts of converting anyone to my fold a long time back. And I will not comment further on the subject.

Iam planning on posting a "Foundation theory of audio" as propagated by Nordost and Ansuz, So all foo and cable lovers and haters alike can head there for some spirited weekend arguments. And lets leave politics to the politicians :p
 
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