Glass half-full audio components vs glass-half-empty kind

[essrand]

While thinking and writing about why I switched from a full Nagra system towards Accuphase and finally to Shindo, I realised that two ways of looking at audio systems: In audiophile terms: a "revealing" system and a "forgiving" system, or to put it in a more layman's term a glass half full and glass half empty kind of a system. I put my thoughts down in this piece in my Nagra vs Shindo move. Would love for some feedback on what you think: agree? disagree? or completely off?

Part 2: I sold my Nagra ultimate 300b amplifier. Why?

The glass-half-full vs glass-half-empty audio system

audiofool.substack.com

 

[Analogous]

Tricky question this. One which can disturb the mental equilibrium just when I think I am loving what I’m hearing
Since the boundaries, flag posts and goal posts to decide whether a system leans more towards musicality or analytical are unclear, this decision can be challenging. I have not heard a Nagra set up or a Shindo.

Example: last month I thought I had a good handle on how my set up behaved in my room. Then I got new speakers (same electronics) and the entire presentation changed. (Zu DW and VSA Unified 2). The former sounds more musical with plenty of detail while the clarity and soundstage with the latter is the best I have ever had. I love both. This is with both Hi Res (Qobuz) and MP3 albums (Spotify) streams.

As we all know any change in one of the components in the chain can bring perceptible changes in the SQ, often I am left with the feeling that it’s different but I can’t decide which I like better. So glass exactly half full equals glass half empty?

Loved your three posts describing your thoughts and journey into the depths of audiophilia. Keep them coming

 

[muralimmreddy]

Wonderful writeup. I fall in confused audiophile category , I aspire to have good “music sound” system, but with in means and access to mainstream gear available in india, i am ending up good "sound sound" chain. I am chasing three T's too , tone, timbre, timing really not much into soundstage, imaging etc. I hope you share wisdom/tips on how you choose components or what virtues you looked in them in the journey.

 

[Nikhil]

Would love for some feedback on what you think: agree? disagree? or completely off?

Very interesting to follow your journey so far. I have come to the conclusion that there is no right or wrong way to go about this. In the end if the Shindos have given you what you are looking for, then so be it. Having said that, I do think that your Indian Classical CDs may have played a role in your journey. The fact that the Shindos make them more enjoyable to listen to is all that matters.

I have to admire your commitment given the gear you have had in the recent past. It takes me forever to decide on a particular piece of gear. I am usually very reluctant to attempt making a change. Amazing to see your journey and the impressive list of gear you have tried out along the way.


.

 

[prem]

I don’t know if I will term it as half empty or half full.

Over the years you have had several systems from Coincident to Nagra to Accuphase to now Shindo. After having owned all these systems you have kind of now figured the kind of sound you want. For some, Nagra might be the end all. For some, like Arthur Salvatore, the Coincident is end of game. For you it’s the Shindo.

For me the most important take away is one should understand what kind of sound floats your boat and accordingly try and get equipment that work in that space.

From your experience, I hope members understand that buying expensive equipment does not necessarily mean you’ll enjoy it, unless it provides the sound you are looking for

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I just typed how we are all chasing that "Sound in our head", and Prem beat me to it. So I deleted everything I wrote

 

[ajuvignesh]

Wonderful writeup. I fall in confused audiophile category , I aspire to have good “music sound” system, but with in means and access to mainstream gear available in india, i am ending up good "sound sound" chain. I am chasing three T's too , tone, timbre, timing really not much into soundstage, imaging etc. I hope you share wisdom/tips on how you choose components or what virtues you looked in them in the journey.

Sorry for the off-topic post. Can you please educate me on the difference between tone and timbre and what exactly is timing?

 

[muralimmreddy]

Sorry for the off-topic post. Can you please educate me on the difference between tone and timbre and what exactly is timing?

Internet is your friend or search forum for threads like these https://www.hifivision.com/threads/dacs-that-do-tone-and-timbre-right.91441/,

you can read this eloquent writing by Herb and decipher what he is saying on tone, timbre and PRAT drawing paralles to swara, shruthi, tala etc

https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-audio-nait-5si-integrated-amplifier-page-2

Don't want to pollute the thread, DM if you want more links

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Sorry for the off-topic post. Can you please educate me on the difference between tone and timbre and what exactly is timing?

To explain tone and timbre, if we produce a 2000 hz note on a guitar and a piano, then the harmonics associated with that note, which help us distinguish if it is a guitar or a piano is called as Timbre. It is usually associated with the aftertones of a tone, like the decay or harmonic structure, that help us identify the exact instrument playing it.

Coming to the tone itself, it is referred to the exact pitch of that note. The pitch of every note can be considered as a combination of the lower section ( say bass ) and the higher section ( say treble ). When we change tone control on a amplified signal, the pitch changes with the frequency being the same. For example, we can lower the tone control on a guitar amp and it will sound more heavy and bassy. Increasing the tone, will make it more lean and bright. And both the above pitches, are generated from the same guitar at the same frequency.

Thus, different types of guitars, producing the same note can sound different, due to differences in pitch, which we call as tone. And difference between a guitar and a violin or a piano at the same frequency note is timbre. Though usually, both the terms are used in conjunction, to associate how accurate the reproduction of a instrument on a system is. And the ability to distinguish a complex musical passage, with several similar instruments playing at very close frequencies is called as texture. That is getting a combination of tone, texture and separation right.

 

[ajuvignesh]

Internet is your friend or search forum for threads like these https://www.hifivision.com/threads/dacs-that-do-tone-and-timbre-right.91441/,

you can read this eloquent writing by Herb and decipher what he is saying on tone, timbre and PRAT drawing paralles to swara, shruthi, tala etc

https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-audio-nait-5si-integrated-amplifier-page-2

Don't want to pollute the thread, DM if you want more links

Thank you so much. I will go through all the links. I know what is Timbre but thought both tone and Timbre are same. My bad.

To explain tone and timbre, if we produce a 2000 hz note on a guitar and a piano, then the harmonics associated with that note, which help us distinguish if it is a guitar or a piano is called as Timbre. It is usually associated with the aftertones of a tone, like the decay or harmonic structure, that help us identify the exact instrument playing it.

Coming to the tone itself, it is referred to the exact pitch of that note. The pitch of every note can be considered as a combination of the lower section ( say bass ) and the higher section ( say treble ). When we change tone control on a amplified signal, the pitch changes with the frequency being the same. For example, we can lower the tone control on a guitar amp and it will sound more heavy and bassy. Increasing the tone, will make it more lean and bright. And both the above pitches, are generated from the same guitar at the same frequency.

Thus, different types of guitars, producing the same note can sound different, due to differences in pitch, which we call as tone. And difference between a guitar and a violin or a piano at the same frequency note is timbre. Though usually, both the terms are used in conjunction, to associate how accurate the reproduction of a instrument on a system is. And the ability to distinguish a complex musical passage, with several similar instruments playing at very close frequencies is called as texture. That is getting a combination of tone, texture and separation right.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I kinda get it. But not scientifically. For instance, Isn't the difference between two guitars or instruments like a guitar and violin all because of the change in harmonies alone? That is timbre. I totally understand the change in tone of instrument using a tone control which alters the amplitude of bass/treble frequencies.
So, What is the tone of an instrument and timbre of an instrument? I was under the impression that both are the same.

 

[ajuvignesh]

Internet is your friend or search forum for threads like these https://www.hifivision.com/threads/dacs-that-do-tone-and-timbre-right.91441/,

you can read this eloquent writing by Herb and decipher what he is saying on tone, timbre and PRAT drawing paralles to swara, shruthi, tala etc

https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-audio-nait-5si-integrated-amplifier-page-2

Don't want to pollute the thread, DM if you want more links

"Timbre makes music beautiful and dream provoking. Timbre is the tone of the musician's voice and the sound of wood and metal instruments. And tone is what distinguishes one guitar from another, or one drum from another drum. To my ears and in my system, the NAIT 5si seemed a bit ungenerous in the timbre department. Once it was fully broken in, it delivered good and sufficient tonal color—enough that I could stop missing it. I'm certain that most people would never notice—or maybe even need—what I'm suggesting was slightly deficient."

Just read it.

 

[essrand]

I don’t know if I will term it as half empty or half full.

Over the years you have had several systems from Coincident to Nagra to Accuphase to now Shindo. After having owned all these systems you have kind of now figured the kind of sound you want. For some, Nagra might be the end all. For some, like Arthur Salvatore, the Coincident is end of game. For you it’s the Shindo.

For me the most important take away is one should understand what kind of sound floats your boat and accordingly try and get equipment that work in that space.

From your experience, I hope members understand that buying expensive equipment does not necessarily mean you’ll enjoy it, unless it provides the sound you are looking for

I think there were two points I was trying to make here:

1) Music should (IMO) dictate your equipment choice. If I was listening to Jazz (which I used to a lot, before I turned classical) I might still have stayed with Nagra, which is demanding on all downstream signals including source and recordings (Just as you did with moving to analog because you prefer old bollywood music). If I stuck to stereophile/audiophile recommendations and go for the most accurate, transparent, modern SS systems, I would be stuck listening to only "audiophile" music (Jazz in the Pawnshop anyone?).

2) Some equipment because of their sound signature do spotlight a bit more on the weakness in your system, rather than focus on the music or be more forgiving and still be highly resolving: which is what I term as glass half-full vs empty. I am not dumping on any brand, but using them as real-life examples for the point I am trying to make -- many consider Nagra as lush and musical compared other more neutral brands like CH or Soulution (it's quite subjective). I still love my Nagra gear, esp the tube DAC, that I am still holding on to (for now). I would like my music system to still eke out some good music out of CDs of badly recorded geniuses of Indian music -- its bad enough that MP3 music is unlistenable on my system.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Thank you so much. I will go through all the links. I know what is Timbre but thought both tone and Timbre are same. My bad.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I kinda get it. But not scientifically. For instance, Isn't the difference between two guitars or instruments like a guitar and violin all because of the change in harmonies alone? That is timbre. I totally understand the change in tone of instrument using a tone control which alters the amplitude of bass/treble frequencies.
So, What is the tone of an instrument and timbre of an instrument? I was under the impression that both are the same.

Even I dont want to detract from the thread, so will keep it short . Tone is pitch and timbre is harmonics in short. Though harmonics also play a role in tone, but much lesser compared to timbre.

By choosing components in a circuit, that propagate an even or odd multiple of the fundamental frequency, we create harmonics. When these harmonics match the natural harmonics of the instrument, then that part of the musical reproduction sounds like real instruments to us, or what is called as sounding more natural. Tubes are naturally inclined to generate more even order harmonics, so some prefer tubes for their more natural presentation. But then tubes produce these same harmonics on electronic music created on computers also, then we call the same thing distortion

 

[ajuvignesh]

Even I dont want to detract from the thread, so will keep it short . Tone is pitch and timbre is harmonics in short. Though harmonics also play a role in tone, but much lesser compared to timbre.

By choosing components in a circuit, that propagate an even or odd multiple of the fundamental frequency, we create harmonics. When these harmonics match the natural harmonics of the instrument, then that part of the musical reproduction sounds like real instruments to us, or what is called as sounding more natural. Tubes are naturally inclined to generate more even order harmonics, so some prefer tubes for their more natural presentation. But then tubes produce these same harmonics on electronic music created on computers also, then we call the same thing distortion

hahah. totally got it. Thak you so much once again.

 

[essrand]

To explain tone and timbre, if we produce a 2000 hz note on a guitar and a piano, then the harmonics associated with that note, which help us distinguish if it is a guitar or a piano is called as Timbre. It is usually associated with the aftertones of a tone, like the decay or harmonic structure, that help us identify the exact instrument playing it.

Coming to the tone itself, it is referred to the exact pitch of that note. The pitch of every note can be considered as a combination of the lower section ( say bass ) and the higher section ( say treble ). When we change tone control on a amplified signal, the pitch changes with the frequency being the same. For example, we can lower the tone control on a guitar amp and it will sound more heavy and bassy. Increasing the tone, will make it more lean and bright. And both the above pitches, are generated from the same guitar at the same frequency.

Thus, different types of guitars, producing the same note can sound different, due to differences in pitch, which we call as tone. And difference between a guitar and a violin or a piano at the same frequency note is timbre. Though usually, both the terms are used in conjunction, to associate how accurate the reproduction of a instrument on a system is. And the ability to distinguish a complex musical passage, with several similar instruments playing at very close frequencies is called as texture. That is getting a combination of tone, texture and separation right.

Very eloquent explanation. Thank you.

Now about the third T --
I have a very pedestrian definition of timing: if the system is making your feet tap into the music, then it's got the timing right

 

[essrand]

Very interesting to follow your journey so far. I have come to the conclusion that there is no right or wrong way to go about this. In the end if the Shindos have given you what you are looking for, then so be it. Having said that, I do think that your Indian Classical CDs may have played a role in your journey. The fact that the Shindos make them more enjoyable to listen to is all that matters.

I have to admire your commitment given the gear you have had in the recent past. It takes me forever to decide on a particular piece of gear. I am usually very reluctant to attempt making a change. Amazing to see your journey and the impressive list of gear you have tried out along the way.


.

I wish I was more like you

 

[essrand]

Wonderful writeup. I fall in confused audiophile category , I aspire to have good “music sound” system, but with in means and access to mainstream gear available in india, i am ending up good "sound sound" chain. I am chasing three T's too , tone, timbre, timing really not much into soundstage, imaging etc. I hope you share wisdom/tips on how you choose components or what virtues you looked in them in the journey.

Thanks. I started this substack to chronicle my lessons along the journey, perhaps you might find tips, and lots of lessons on what not to do (which is wisdom in its own way )

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Would love for some feedback on what you think: agree? disagree? or completely off

Very well written post @essrand . This as well as previous posts - superbly articulated thoughts. I'm sure many readers will introspect into their own journeys after reading your blog.

Some of us are fortunate to have the affordability to think of this hobby as a journey. For most others, it's more a one time choice - whether it is a car selection, HT selection, amplifier selection - a choice that needs to hold good for many years. It therefore becomes so much more important to hear the sound in our heads and try to procure gear that comes closest. It's tough, but it doesn't make sense to endlessly shuffle components. I must admit that i myself have been guilty of falling into this trap, this obsession. I keep telling myself that the search for good sound needs to be a pleasure, not a feverish set of audio gambles.

In recent months, I kept going back to moments in my life when i enjoyed music the most and realised how wonderful my setup used to sound several decades ago - and this has made me gradually shift to vintage gear. My current setup consisting of the Garrard 301 with the Decca Gold cartridge, Luxman L3 amp and JBL4343 speakers takes me closest to the sound I hear in my head; to the days of Jazz Yatra, New Orleans, Savaii Gandharva, the Carnatic Music 'kacheris', Woodstock, protest songs, songs from the counter culture and vintage bollywood. Man, those were indeed the days!

Happy listening to all!

 

[Fiftyfifty]

To explain tone and timbre, if we produce a 2000 hz note on a guitar and a piano, then the harmonics associated with that note, which help us distinguish if it is a guitar or a piano is called as Timbre. It is usually associated with the aftertones of a tone, like the decay or harmonic structure, that help us identify the exact instrument playing it.

Coming to the tone itself, it is referred to the exact pitch of that note. The pitch of every note can be considered as a combination of the lower section ( say bass ) and the higher section ( say treble ). When we change tone control on a amplified signal, the pitch changes with the frequency being the same. For example, we can lower the tone control on a guitar amp and it will sound more heavy and bassy. Increasing the tone, will make it more lean and bright. And both the above pitches, are generated from the same guitar at the same frequency.

Thus, different types of guitars, producing the same note can sound different, due to differences in pitch, which we call as tone. And difference between a guitar and a violin or a piano at the same frequency note is timbre. Though usually, both the terms are used in conjunction, to associate how accurate the reproduction of a instrument on a system is. And the ability to distinguish a complex musical passage, with several similar instruments playing at very close frequencies is called as texture. That is getting a combination of tone, texture and separation right.

Wow! Wow! Wow! A superb explanation!

 

[mantu]

Very well written essrand. I could relate to it...