Active VS Passive crossover.

[kanwar]

Passives severly degrade phase response

I don't believe is lowering distortion further from the levels that cannot be detected by human ears (I feel that those who perceive reduced distortion just due to active system are suffering from Placebo effect). If one is using good components, the distortion will be very low even for passive system

Getting low distortion is very easy in both passive and active systems but you cannot get a linear phase response from passive at any cost, no matter how costly or better components you use, the back EMF from speaker's voice coil will interact with passive XO and corrupt the phase response and you will get something in listening which was never there.

A poor phase response means you lack detailing and sound staging.

 

[jaudere]

Technically what you say is absolutely correct. However whether that translates into audible improvement or no is the question. At least for lesser mortals like me, the answer is NO. To my ears, my speakers sound divine (crossover less full ranger and tweeter with high pass filter). Again Paradigm studio 20 (2 way speakers) were superb to my ears when paired with Marantz CD and PM 6003. Not a hint of distortion to my (poorly trained ) ears. I have heard few active speakers (Yamaha, wharfdale monitors). They were very good but did not necessarily have lower or higer distortion.

 

[theredcommando]

I have read somewhere-

"Active speakers are bad because you cannot show them off or show off your chain" (no pun intended) and obviously because it limits the upgrade path.

I am generalizing for active speakers here and not commenting about active crossovers per say.

IMO in an active system all components could be better mated together.
That does not mean that passive is bad. But theoretically at least active system can give better value for money.

 

[navin advani]

I have read somewhere-
"Active speakers are bad because you cannot show them off or show off your chain" (no pun intended) and obviously because it limits the upgrade path..

It depends what you define as active. If you are talking about speakers with integrated amplifiers then maybe but if you consider actives that have external amplifiers you can show off you class D subwoofer amp, your class A solid state midbass amp, your UL PP tube midrange amp and your single ended class A tube tweeter amp...see so many MORE opportunities to show off your chain!

 

[thetibbitts]

The question here was what gets the best sound. Not what is the more expensive or lower cost. Anyone who knows anything at all about this subject knows that an active system will deliver the most accurate sound out of whatever speakers that it is running. Think about this. You can drive a car with a single gear but it will never run as good as that same car with three gears. No matter what the quality is of that single gear, or the motor or any other part of the car. Three gears will always be better than one.
There art tons of options for active crossovers, amps, speakers, speakers with passive crossovers, bla, bla, bla. The options are endless. But, on the average, active will win out any day. Active does not have to be expensive either. Do you know how much power it takes to drive highs and mids? Almost NONE! I have used amps that I have acquired or purchased from garage sales, thrift stores, craigslist, or just been given. You do not have to use fancy super expensive amps for those. It is a waste of money. I have ran an active system off of a $40 car audio active crossover with a 12v adapter hooked up and it rocked.:yahoo:

 

[Oakley]

Useless? I wouldnt take an extreme position like that! I jhave a few systems, all use passive crossovers and I dont think I am missing out( I have listened to actives BTW). My option to go active( for a new system that I am about to build) was a deal breaker since I needed a second amp for the speakers, as well as a Behringer Ultracurve unit.

Bottom line:

More than one way to skin a cat (rat?)!

This kind of discussion will(IMHO) go an and on with no conclusion. Which is better diesel or petrol, CD or vinyl, LCD or projector, red wine or white? To each his own way of finding the holy grail( I'm a passive crossover man myself, except for my powered subs)

Passive crossovers are better than active crossovers.

The extra amount of money spent on active and its other extra requirements, I would upgrde my drivers (vifa to scanspeak, scanspeak to ATC, B&W 6 series to 8 series etc) and use a passive and get a much better speaker and system, hence passive crossovers are superior:lol:

@ georgeO

Pls reserve your comments on active's, as moderator of this forum.
Either you don't know about active's, or google is not providing you right answers.

Passive's made today are for pure commercials.

As moderator don't put others to disbelief about actives, many watch this forum and will take you for insane

Actives are not to be compared to as petrol diesel CNN LPG cd LCD DVD.

@doors666.

Seriously man your write up is weird


Any one can prove me wrong in terms of actives,I stand corrected.

For moderators, pls be role models, don't let qualified take you as insane

Ultimately, it's not the amplification, drivers or xo, it's the efficiency of whole system put together for ultimate listening that is actives.

Passive's are show off, actives are reality


Oak

 

[captrajesh]

I have started building an active X-over, will post some pics here soon.

Any progress on this Bibin? Would love to hear your experiences.

The question here was what gets the best sound. Not what is the more expensive or lower cost.

Welcome to the forum and thank you for reviving the thread. This topic deserves to be discussed more.

 

[corElement]

Passive's made today are for pure commercials.

And actives are what? charity?

As moderator don't put others to disbelief about actives, many watch this forum and will take you for insane

Actives are not to be compared to as petrol diesel CNN LPG cd LCD DVD.

Why not?

@doors666.

Seriously man your write up is weird

Made perfect sense to me, and I agree entirely with his view.

For moderators, pls be role models, don't let qualified take you as insane

:lol:

Ultimately, it's not the amplification, drivers or xo, it's the efficiency of whole system put together for ultimate listening that is actives.

Passive's are show off, actives are reality
Oak

 

[gvenu]

Hi,

I am with active! Getting my active cross over, amp and other stuff today from AP.

Would like to audition, PM me...

Thanks
Venu

 

[Oakley]

The question here was what gets the best sound. Not what is the more expensive or lower cost. Anyone who knows anything at all about this subject knows that an active system will deliver the most accurate sound out of whatever speakers that it is running. Think about this. You can drive a car with a single gear but it will never run as good as that same car with three gears. No matter what the quality is of that single gear, or the motor or any other part of the car. Three gears will always be better than one.
There art tons of options for active crossovers, amps, speakers, speakers with passive crossovers, bla, bla, bla. The options are endless. But, on the average, active will win out any day. Active does not have to be expensive either. Do you know how much power it takes to drive highs and mids? Almost NONE! I have used amps that I have acquired or purchased from garage sales, thrift stores, craigslist, or just been given. You do not have to use fancy super expensive amps for those. It is a waste of money. I have ran an active system off of a $40 car audio active crossover with a 12v adapter hooked up and it rocked.:yahoo:

You are spot on, hit the bulls eye.....

Actives the way to go

People should educate themselves rather being in illusions of dark.

Oak

 

[square_wave]

I think, the discussion is degrading into the passive i heard is better than the active i heard or vice versa.
If you take into consideration technology limitations and possibilities and if you do comparison between setups within similar pricepoints using similar drivers, then active setups ( outboard active crossover + multiple amps mated to a well designed speakers design) should outperform the passive version.

But this cannot be seen as an umbrella statement. Price points, design implementations all play a big factor.

 

[captrajesh]

I think, the discussion is degrading into the passive i heard is better than the active i heard or vice versa.
If you take into consideration technology limitations and possibilities and if you do comparison between setups within similar pricepoints using similar drivers, then active setups ( outboard active crossover + multiple amps mated to a well designed speakers design) should outperform the passive version.

But this cannot be seen as an umbrella statement. Price points, design implementations all play a big factor.

Very well said. Fully agree.

 

[matbhuvi]

Living in Chennai helps you to audition some really high end car audio setups.

My take is, passive will be equally good as active "provided" if your amp can provide enough headroom for the "desired" listening volume.

It is not that complex

dBW = Lreq - Lsens + 20 * Log (D2/Dref) + HR

W = 10 to the power of (dBW / 10)

Where:
Lreq = required SPL at listener
Lsens = loudspeaker sensitivity (1W/1M)
D2 = loudspeaker-to-listener distance
Dref = reference distance
HR = desired amplifier headroom
dBW = ratio of power referenced to 1 watt
W = power required

Try it yourself

I felt that my amp was not efficient enough to drive my speakers with passive crossover as i was not getting the dynamics that i want. I tried the Active way with help of my CDA-9887 HU and the result was there to see. The same amp produced much much better results with the same speakers. Much better dynamics and much better channel separation.

So, it is not just about going Active for the sake of it. If you have enough headroom, passive will be equally good. It is much safer to go passive way if you are not clear on how HPF, LPF, slopes impact the audio. I love Active just because it gives me high control over tuning of my setup. Especially the crossover slopes have a big impact on the sound stage.

I also find it ridiculous to blame the DAC or speaker cables when the Amp is not up to the mark. All these are based on my limited practical experience. So, pls take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[captrajesh]

Some people do not want to commit to the on board amps in active speaker systems.

To have best of the both worlds, one can get an active crossover designed/ optimised for one's speakers and route the preamp signal through it before being fed to power amps.

 

[matbhuvi]

Some people do not want to commit to the on board amps in active speaker systems.

To have best of the both worlds, one can get an active crossover designed/ optimised for one's speakers and route the preamp signal through it before being fed to power amps.

That's interesting Rajesh.

In Car HiFi, one can go Active with the help of Active capable amplifier like SL A260.4. More easier way is to acquire active capable head units. There are many who use Car Head Unit in home audio as DAC. Some go very crazy like this. It would be one of the easiest way to go Active in home audio with the existing speakers .

 

[kanwar]

Getting low distortion is very easy in both passive and active systems but you cannot get a linear phase response from passive at any cost, no matter how costly or better components you use, the back EMF from speaker's voice coil will interact with passive XO and corrupt the phase response and you will get something in listening which was never there.

A poor phase response means you lack detailing and sound staging.

Technically what you say is absolutely correct. However whether that translates into audible improvement or no is the question. At least for lesser mortals like me, the answer is NO.

When you are saying is that you are using a cross-over less fullranger[obvious to the application], it simply re-inforces what i wrote in previous post. Your phase response remains intact because there is no passive XO present inbetween your fullranger[you only have HPF for your tweeter, fullranger getting full spectrum], so no point of phase shift distortion, Right..!!!

But when the phase response changes due to presence of passive XO[assuming a well designed 2-way passive but you still have phase shift], our ears can detect it very easily because of the shift in sound stage and micro-detailing will suffer due to mismatch in transient attack time which itself is co-related to phase only.

 

[Hiten]

Just curious, any names of very very well designed amps in active speakers ?
Thanks and regards.

 

[Hiten]

in addition, couldn't this phase shift be calculated and compensated for ?
thx

 

[kanwar]

Just curious, any names of very very well designed amps in active speakers ?
Thanks and regards.

Didn't get your question. Any well designed amp can be used in active system or just like a plate amp with active XO inbuilt in it.

in addition, couldn't this phase shift be calculated and compensated for ?
thx

Phase shift is always there when ever you have reactive elements like inductors in signal path. They generate back EMF when used in conjunction with voice coil drivers.

In Active XO, you can correct the phase errors by proper acoustic summing and EQ which is not harder to achieve.

In case of Passive XO you cannot, because the speaker is electromechanical device and it has got back EMF which interacts with the phase response which is a physical phenomena, in other words a byproduct of all passive XO. You cannot eliminate back EMF generated by voice coil of speaker + inductors in passive XO. This thing is completely missing in active XO, hence better control and result.

You see its a kind of flaw in passive XO, no matter how much good quality components you use, but the physical phenomena will be there, you cannot defy back EMF generation which has a huge impact on time-alignment/transient attack---->>PHASE.........

This passive XO based generated back EMF is the biggest contributor in inter-modulation distortion variation in amplifier and which results in warm and bright sounding amplifiers. This is why zero global feedback amplifiers are less prone to such variaation because of absence of feedback which is co-related to I.M.D variation.

This single flaw kicks so hugely in the face of passive XO that no other argument can defend the flawed concept of passive XO. I know many people will get hurt but guys physics is the name of the game. I have no objections if your ears feel the flaw as sweet sounding, keep enjoying.

 

[Hiten]

Thanks for the explanation Kanwar.

Didn't get your question. Any well designed amp can be used in active system or just like a plate amp with active XO inbuilt in it.

Yes Plate amp is what I meant. Any well designed popular amp ? Audiophile if one must insist . Future of active speakers looks promising. Coaxials (Single point sound source) drivers with active crossover and well made amp seems the way to go.
Regards