Advise on R2R DAC

[morerajendra5678]

I think a lot of the “warm vs bright DAC” talk actually starts from a bad reference point. Many people first hear a thin or edgy-sounding DAC and assume that’s what “neutral” sounds like, so they go hunting for a “warm” DAC to fix it. But that thinness usually isn’t neutrality — it’s a design issue showing up as treble glare, weak midrange body, or poor tone density.

A given Dac may sound different in different system as sound of a system is also influenced by Source+Amplifier+Speaker.
When Amplifier+Speaker tend to have bright and lively sound character even a well designed neutral Dac will end up sounding bright. But when Amplifier+Speaker tend to sound very warm as with most tube based systems, a bit warm well made Dac tends to make the system very very warm and dull. So in some cases Dacs alone can't be blamed as not well made.
Yes there are Dacs which are not well made. Then there are Dacs which put more weight on midrange. All these are based on Designer goals.

The Gustard may just be a well designed dac. I have not heard it so cant tell. Also system balance is key.

Gustard R26 is good designed Dac. Even with Avantgarde Speakers it sounded smooth and highs were not bothersome for some FMs who gave their feedback to me. It is not overly warm either. Most R2R Dacs have trait of thick tonality which is not the case with Gustard R2R.

 

[square_wave]

A given Dac may sound different in different system as sound of a system is also influenced by Source+Amplifier+Speaker.
When Amplifier+Speaker tend to have bright and lively sound character even a well designed neutral Dac will end up sounding bright. But when Amplifier+Speaker tend to sound very warm as with most tube based systems, a bit warm well made Dac tends to make the system very very warm and dull. So in some cases Dacs alone can't be blamed as not well made.
Yes there are Dacs which are not well made. Then there are Dacs which put more weight on midrange. All these are based on Designer goals.

Gustard R26 is good designed Dac. Even with Avantgarde Speakers it sounded smooth and highs were not bothersome for some FMs who gave their feedback to me. It is not overly warm either. Most R2R Dacs have trait of thick tonality which is not the case with Gustard R2R.

You perfectly echo my thoughts. That is why at the end I said, " system balance is key ". Some systems may actually need a warm sounding dac to balance out other issues or gear choices. Synergy is important. The usual best practice is to keep source and amplifier as neutral as possible and then, --- > explore / find the "overall sound signature" by choosing the right loudspeaker.

 

[shabusf]

To be honest, I don't have extensive experience with swapping DACs. The Kinki Studio and Monitor Audio setup is fairly new to my room, but I immediately loved how it sounded when paired with the Metrum.

Now, I am simply trying to regain that synergy. While I know the Topping D70s/iFi iDSD Neo gets good reviews, it just didn't match my personal taste with the chain. I realize the speakers and amplifier do have a major role, but I am hoping to use the DAC as the final 'tweak' to tune the sound back to the signature I prefer.

Between my entry level cables are from Mogami 2497(RCA) and 3103(speaker)

 

[square_wave]

The Pontus 2 or the Holo Spring 3 (at-least lev 2) may just work for you. You cant really go too cheap because you are already used to the Metrum jade.

Pontus 2- Very similar tonal gravity to Jade. Closest balance to Jade. Lowest risk-- I think!

Holo spring Lev 2 - Slightly less romantic than Jade, Better microdynamics and spatial layering but very good tonal density. More or less, Jade’s balance but a cleaner window. May need very good cables to make this combo work but you will be rewarded higher if you take the pain.

Also look out for audionote dacs in the used market.

Your speakers and amplfier are quite resolving, fast and open sounding so any issues upstream (source) cannot be masked. That is why you are getting affected so much when you tried a few budget options. In your system, the dac is the device that is pretty much deciding the signature.

 

[morerajendra5678]

Go with Gustard R26 and tube Pre-amplifier. But incase you are not adverse to experimenting, you can try Fiio K11 R2R in your system to figure out whether it floats your boat or not. Risk is just 12k incase you don't like its signature. But get a tube Pre-amplifier with the DAC to have a more musical system.

 

[morerajendra5678]

The Pontus 2 or the Holo Spring 3 (at-least lev 2) may just work for you.

If you are referring to Pontus 12th Edition, it is same as Denafrips Aries 15th Edition. Denafrips Venus 12th Edition was not a big success like Denafrips Aries 12th or Pontus 12th. Pontus 15th is same as Denafrips Venus 12th.
So yes Denafrips Aries 15th is also a good option. Aries 15th, Laiv Harmony uDac and Gustard R26 pretty much play in the same price bracket in India. I believe all of these are well made Dacs.

 

[dvraghavan]

If you are referring to Pontus 12th Edition, it is same as Denafrips Aries 15th Edition. Denafrips Venus 12th Edition was not a big success like Denafrips Aries 12th or Pontus 12th. Pontus 15th is same as Denafrips Venus 12th.
So yes Denafrips Aries 15th is also a good option. Aries 15th, Laiv Harmony uDac and Gustard R26 pretty much play in the same price bracket in India. I believe all of these are well made Dacs.

I bought the Denafrips Ares 15th in June and it is pretty good. I use it with Eversolo DMP A6 ME. Earlier was using the internal DAC of the A6ME. Ares 15th is definitely good.

 

[square_wave]

If you are referring to Pontus 12th Edition, it is same as Denafrips Aries 15th Edition. Denafrips Venus 12th Edition was not a big success like Denafrips Aries 12th or Pontus 12th. Pontus 15th is same as Denafrips Venus 12th.
So yes Denafrips Aries 15th is also a good option. Aries 15th, Laiv Harmony uDac and Gustard R26 pretty much play in the same price bracket in India. I believe all of these are well made Dacs.

I am talking about the Denafrips Pontus II 12th Anniversary Edition. Someone I know is running them on a system with Audiovector speakers. Audiovector is known to be quite brutal if used with sources that are bright or lean. The dac adds that midrange fullness, treble smoothness and plays with great timing and musicality that makes the foot tap along. His next upgrade is to the Aqua hifi La Scala which he likes better. I have the La Voce which is not in production now. The Aqua dacs comes with all the typical R2R goodness but also gives you a bit more resolution and layering as compared to many mid tier R2R dacs.

I am sure you have personal experience with more R2R dacs than me. I am just pointing to the ones I have some experience with.

 

[yogibear]

Thank you for confirming.


R2R DAC + Tube Preamp -> Will This Combination Roll Off High Frequencies? Yet to try such a combo. Just googled, wondering about the topping/ifi dac + tube pre combo as well, looks like it may solve some of my issues, if not all. Thanks for the tube pre tip.

If you ever visit Jaipur, you are welcome to experience some chipless R2R DAC plus Tube preamp delicacies... Includes some very intersting variations....

 

[morerajendra5678]

I am sure you have personal experience with more R2R dacs than me. I am just pointing to the ones I have some experience with.

I am just into my 2nd year into my HiFi journey. HiFi journey started with Pre-owned stuff. Since I opted for streaming only, I invested into Dacs and various tube amplifiers to bring about some change into my chain.
Your experience is rather fundamentally better and varied.

 

[square_wave]

I am just into my 2nd year into my HiFi journey. HiFi journey started with Pre-owned stuff. Since I opted for streaming only, I invested into Dacs and various tube amplifiers to bring about some change into my chain.
Your experience is rather fundamentally better and varied.

The hifi landscape is much more varied with too many options at various price points than when some of us old timers joined the hobby. You are all so lucky!

 

[square_wave]

Btw, Here's Terry Ellis testing the Pontus 2 on the Kinki amp and one of the most resolving loudspeakers out there from TAD.

 

[morerajendra5678]

If you ever visit Jaipur, you are welcome to experience some chipless R2R DAC plus Tube preamp delicacies... Includes some very intersting variations....

My experience with Dacs+ Tube Pre-amplifier has been that even cheap Dacs when combined with Tube Pre-amplifier tend to compete with Dacs at multiple times cost.
What has been your experience with Dacs + Tube Pre-amplifier? Would be a learning milestone to note your experience.

 

[yogibear]

My experience with Dacs+ Tube Pre-amplifier has been that even cheap Dacs when combined with Tube Pre-amplifier tend to compete with Dacs at multiple times cost.
What has been your experience with Dacs + Tube Pre-amplifier? Would be a learning milestone to note your experience.

I crafted three chipless R2R DACs, all three with balanced outputs. Coupled one with discrete opamps, second with 12Au7 tube output and third with transformer coupled output. I did not like the onboard tube output and preferred to drive each of them with an external DHT Preamp.

Dark background, excellent drive to the preamp, overall 12-13dB gain at preamp, wide bandwidth and superb resultion.

Crafted the preamp myself too, 15hz to 70khz, under 0.01% distortion.

Overall experience is Euphoric. I tend to like chipless R2R DAC over others. Also own the ECdesigns BX model, very refined sound with life like vocals. But after DAC everything is tube based. Great, rewarding journey so far !

And now Spotify Lossless makes it merrier !

 

[shabusf]

Dear friends,
Thank you all for your valuable replies. Apologies for not responding earlier, I am tied up with work and family commitments.
I’ll go through all your comments and update here as soon as possible.

Thanks once again for your time and support.

Regards
Shabu

 

[shabusf]

Dear friends,
Thanks a lot for all the suggestions and inputs.

Regarding the Holo Spring 3, I feel it is beyond my budget at the moment. It also seems quite rare in the used market. One unit available with someone I know is the first-generation Holo Spring Level 1.

I’m also looking at Denafrips Ares (15th) or Pontus (12th), are these two really that close in sound?
I previously owned an Ares II, but that was with a completely different chain (Harman HK990 + Polk Legend L600), and I eventually sold it. Do the Pontus 12th and Pontus 15th have noticeably different sonic signatures?

I do have access to a DIY Anode Acoustics tube preamp with Brimar ECC82 NOS tubes. It is with a friend, and I plan to try it with my chain sometime later to see how the synergy works out.

There are so many options to consider, Gustard, FiiO, Denafrips. As suggested, I might try the FiiO K11 as a low-budget experiment.

Major update: I managed to pick up a pre-owned Metrum Octave DAC. After pairing it in my system, realized it’s in a different league compared to the Jade. The midrange has more than enough warmth and richness, but I’m missing some liveliness in the top end. The high frequencies feel rolled off, not sure if this is the DAC’s character or possibly a cable matching issue.

If you ever visit Jaipur, you are welcome to experience some chipless R2R DAC plus Tube preamp delicacies... Includes some very intersting variations....

Not sure when I can make this possible . But wish to know more about it. Will DM.


Thanks
Shabu

 

[morerajendra5678]

I’m also looking at Denafrips Ares (15th) or Pontus (12th), are these two really that close in sound?

Aries 15th and Pontus 12th is the same.

Do the Pontus 12th and Pontus 15th have noticeably different sonic signatures?

They have different sonic signature but you need a high end system to figure out the differences. Pontus 15th is basically Venus 12th and since Venus 12th was not a quantum jump over Pontus 12th so Venus 12th was not a huge success.

I do have access to a DIY Anode Acoustics tube preamp with Brimar ECC82 NOS tubes. It is with a friend, and I plan to try it with my chain sometime later to see how the synergy works out.

There are so many options to consider, Gustard, FiiO, Denafrips. As suggested, I might try the FiiO K11 as a low-budget experiment.

Gustard R26, Denafrips Aries 15th, Pontus 15th, Fiio K11 R2R, K13 R2R, Warmer and Laiv Harmony uDac get the maximum benefit with use of tube Pre-amplifier. Tube Pre-amplifier will lend it a certain voicing and more of midrange weight which is not required for top end Dacs like Terminator 2, Mola Mola, Aqua Dacs, Audio Note Dacs which are R2R based. But high-end DS Dacs again benefit out of tube Pre-amplifier due to the way pre-amplifier handles the high frequency.

Major update: I managed to pick up a pre-owned Metrum Octave DAC. After pairing it in my system, realized it’s in a different league compared to the Jade. The midrange has more than enough warmth and richness, but I’m missing some liveliness in the top end. The high frequencies feel rolled off, not sure if this is the DAC’s character or possibly a cable matching issue.

You need to address this with cable change. You system is becoming too warm and hence you are loosing the liveliness. Either change the cables to a bright cables or get an Equalizer and give it a boost in 1Khz to 2 KHz range and another small boost in 6Khz to 10KHz region.
Note: if you try tube Pre-amplifier with your current DS Dacs also, you will get lot of midrange weight and a bit thickish tone which is trait of R2R Dac due to the Pre-amplifier. You can use all your Dacs with rotation if you get the tube Pre-amplifier in your system.

 

[shabusf]

Gustard R26, Denafrips Aries 15th, Pontus 15th, Fiio K11 R2R, K13 R2R, Warmer and Laiv Harmony uDac get the maximum benefit with use of tube Pre-amplifier. Tube Pre-amplifier will lend it a certain voicing and more of midrange weight which is not required for top end Dacs like Terminator 2, Mola Mola, Aqua Dacs, Audio Note Dacs which are R2R based. But high-end DS Dacs again benefit out of tube Pre-amplifier due to the way pre-amplifier handles the high frequency.

Useful information, thank you.

You need to address this with cable change. You system is becoming too warm and hence you are loosing the liveliness. Either change the cables to a bright cables or get an Equalizer and give it a boost in 1Khz to 2 KHz range and another small boost in 6Khz to 10KHz region.
Note: if you try tube Pre-amplifier with your current DS Dacs also, you will get lot of midrange weight and a bit thickish tone which is trait of R2R Dac due to the Pre-amplifier. You can use all your Dacs with rotation if you get the tube Pre-amplifier in your system.

My current RCA cables are Mogami neglex 2497 which was suggested to me for a warmer sound. I might looks at a neutral/bright cable now. Any budget suggestions please?
Also, I am planning to bring the Anode Acoustics tube pre. Will try out different combinations with DS DACs and the Metrum Octave, hopefully over the weekend.

 

[morerajendra5678]

My current RCA cables are Mogami neglex 2497 which was suggested to me for a warmer sound. I might looks at a neutral/bright cable now. Any budget suggestions please?

No need to change RCA cables. Use a thinner guage speaker cable. Thinner guage speaker cable will handle higher frequencies better. For ex -- if your current speaker cable is 12 Awg, use a 14 Awg speaker cable for better higher frequencies.

Also, I am planning to bring the Anode Acoustics tube pre. Will try out different combinations with DS DACs and the Metrum Octave, hopefully over the weekend.

Update with your findings as I have found DS Dacs have done very decent job when used in conjunction with Tube Pre-amplifier.

 

[DB1989]

Useful information, thank you.

My current RCA cables are Mogami neglex 2497 which was suggested to me for a warmer sound. I might looks at a neutral/bright cable now. Any budget suggestions please?
Also, I am planning to bring the Anode Acoustics tube pre. Will try out different combinations with DS DACs and the Metrum Octave, hopefully over the weekend.

I am using Mogami Gold RCA interconnects and AudioQuest Rocket 22 speaker cables with the Kinki Studio. Tried the Mogami 2477 speaker cables but the resultant sound was mushy and dynamically subdued vis-a-vis the AudioQuest Rocket 22 which sounds big, bold and expansive in comparison. I also use other Mogami speaker cables such as the 2972 but they’ll probably not be my top pick moving forward.