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Amp upgrade if required

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pratimbayal

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:cool: Hi I am starting this thread with thanks to this site and its members. This is because last month I purchsed my 2 channel audio set up with guide from cranky whom I met through hifivision only. Now he is a good freind . My set up speaker -B&W 685, cdp -CA 640c and Amp -Cyrus 6vs 2 . The selection was made from very few options in kolkata.I was not in a mood to wait , research and wait .I am enjoying my system. However I am thinking to upgrade the amp to have some more power . Cyrus 6vs2 is 40 w/pch and recommended power for B&W is 25-100 w . My area is a L shaped living room with 16'wide and 20'length on one side and 11' length on another side. Before purchasing I have heard-Arcam -Diva , Creek Evolution , NAD c352 , Cayin , CA640A . Cyrus was best and suited my budget then. I just want to add some power since if Iwant to listen louder some time -in my area that might help. Do I add a power amp . Has any body experienced Arcam AJ38 (since 105w pch)and B&W combo. Or any suggestion for amp with B&W 685 . For budget with in 100K will be fine. ( I have exceeded the intial limit and set a new one: hiting the pocket but filling the heart since before this I had a sony portable cd and casste player for 10 years )


I have already decided to add a sub-velodyne CHT with my system . Depending upon the feed back and my audition I will decide whether to power upgrade the amp or not and keep cool . Obviously apart from power ( may be psycological ) in the amp I am not going to upgrade/change anything unless my system gives any problem going future .
 

neo

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My vote would go for the arcam or the creek. IMO You should keep the woofer on hold at the moment atleast till you get a new amp.
All the best
Cheers
 

odyssey

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If I understand you correctly, you want to use your existing Cyrus as a preamp (volume control) and add a power amp (not another integrated amp) to this?

cheers
Sridhar
 

pratimbayal

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Thanks Neo- Creek-Arcam which model ?

Sridhar

That might be an option. Alternatively I can replace the my Cyrus with another Integrated. Ofcourse If I can sell it at suitable price. However If I go for power amp budget will 50-60k .However I have preference for integrated since easy to fix.
 

SKR

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Thanks Neo- Creek-Arcam which model ?

Sridhar

That might be an option. Alternatively I can replace the my Cyrus with another Integrated. Ofcourse If I can sell it at suitable price. However If I go for power amp budget will 50-60k .However I have preference for integrated since easy to fix.

If you just bought Cyrus Integrated Amplifier last month only then why are you in a hurry to upgrade. I am sure your amp. has not yet properly burnt-in and settled in case you bought new. If you could live with your Sony for 10 years, atleast give your Cyrus say 6 months before you decide. It is supposed to be a very good amp but i am not sure about power to drive your B&W . It all depends on sensivity and nominal impedance of your B&W. But as u said minimum power required is 25 watts , so in my opinion please wait and allow a few months and atleast 200 to 300 hours before you make a definite opinion and take a decision.
As your amp. will burn-in gradually you will realise that it is opening out slowly and feel a lot more powerful. No doubt it is always better to have extra power in case of solid state amps. to get most from your speakers. A 40 watts tube amplifier will sound much powerful than a 40 watt solid state amp.
Have patience and enjoy the music. You already have a very good system and Cranky has good experience to advice you correctly.

SKR

SKR
 

odyssey

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An integrated means you will have to sell your existing Cyrus, if you add a power amp alone it means up to 60K max...hmmm there arent that many good power amps in that budget. What exactly are you missing in your present setup?

cheers
Sridhar
 

SKR

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There is one solution using Autoformers which increases the impedance of the amplifier to 8 ohms to 16 Ohms.
Can visit this site :

Products

These are transformers made by Anti-Cables | Home used to multiply the impedance of speakers. I am not sure how practical is that. Also the cost involved. If by multiplying and increasing Speaker impedance one is able to drive a speaker with low powered amp. can be checked.
Can look at the possibility of getting these Autoformers made in India.
Just came to my mind.
Because selling a product in high end audio once it is sold and used even for a week will make the owner lose money. Also using other combinations of pre-power or Sub woofer is again taking risk unless a seller agrees to give home demo to confirm the compatibility of the system and getting desired sound quality and sound levels.

SKR
 

pratimbayal

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cranky has correctly explained my issue. I donot call it a problem rather not getting the full satisfaction.

To reply SKR now I am ( after the dealer declined quick upgrade ) not in a hurry but like to start the process of decision making. I thought the option of biamping with 6 power or 8 power from cyrus , as suggested by unleash_me , but they are 50 and 60 watt respectively. Is that worthy? If I am putting an power amp then why only that much. In that case with same money I can have 8vs2 int amp with 70 watt pch.


Neo

Is there any particular reason to hold the subwoofer till the amp finalised ?


Crany I am not able to understand " switching speakers for a more efficient model would also work just as well" can you explain
 

anm

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that's a bad situation to be in. I would suggest the simpler way out - wait for a buyer - may be the b&w dealer can also help you find one. There are some dealers on this forum who may help you sell it off.
You may also explore getting used integrated to start with - and may sell of the cyrus to the same dealer. If your finances permit, you can buy one before selling this one off.

Currently I am not in a position to recommend any dealer. Hoping for my current transaction to get completed in the right manner - if that happens, I will highly recommend a dealer, else I will highly recommend against him.

regards
 

pratimbayal

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Yes the B&W dealer ( Mr. Surajit Paul of Digital Acoustic in Kolkata) is very good and easy to deal with. He also makes speaker and seems to a technical person. To solve my issue he gave his demo NAD C352 to me that Ii kept with me for a week and tried with my combination. Yes NAD was easy with volumn level but clarity of Cyrus was better. I returned the NAD for that. I will also try to get buyer through him if I decide to replace my Cyrus. However before taking any decision to replace I would ensure that the sonic quality that I am getting at present is enhanced or maintained apart from the extra power ( loudness ) I am looking for.
 

anm

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he means - get another pair of speakers who can make better use of available power in your amp. Some speakers can give high output even with 1 watt of power. Klipsch make some very efficient speakers, but some do not like the treble due to horn. Some people are really die hard fans of klipsch though. Search youtube for RF83 videos.
 

neo

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@ paritam For the arcam's you can try the FMJ 28/38 & for the creek's i was thinking about the 5350se ( or something similarly named as i don't quite remember the exact model) but on checking their web site it seems to have been discontinued, so alternatively youll have to look at evo2.

To me the arcam sounds more detailed than the nad but it is not as detailed as the cyrus.
Ive not heard the new creek so cant comment.

I feel an ideal solution for you would be to change your amp or may be the spk. On a stereo set up I normally dont like to add a subs unless you really wont to boost the bottom end.

All the best
Cheers
 
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pratimbayal

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I have auditioned creek Evo and to me Cyrus was much better. I am thinking of getting Cyrus 8vs2 at 70 w pch( I donot want to compromise on detail as exist in my present set up ). Though 8vs2 has recently been discontinued there are stock in India. As per Cyrus technical team it has the same protection mode. But I think this will be louder ( and more clear?) at a given level than 6vs2 with 40 w pch. Will this be a good solution?Obviously problem of replacing remains same.

While searching I found a amplifier power calculator in crown.co.uk - manufacturer of professional power amp. There I found if the desired level of sensitivity(loudness ?) with a particular listening distance macthes with speaker sensitivity (88 dB for my B&W 685) them amp power requirement is not much . In fact the result was showing 32-40 watt only with 10 dB peak and 4 mt distance to listen. Here if the sensitivity of speaker is more say 90 dB that to produce that same 90 dB it will take less power . So that means if the sensitivity of speaker is more the power requirement is less. Is it correct. Is this the reason for the suggestion from you and cranky to change speaker ? I auditioned B&W 603 with Cyrus and did not liked it compared to 685 . Please correct me if I am going wrong technically - I am poor in that as far as audio is concerned


Actualy I liked the effect of sub when I auditioned Velodyne sub with B&W 685. My thniking was that it will be an extentsion of lower frequency and provide a good bass that might more than compensate the effect of a good 3 way FS .I like drum , Tabla kind of music. Also it will add some loudness .Any suggestion?
 

Asit

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Hi Pratim,

I am really sorry to hear your problems, and I apologize to join in this thread late, being a fellow Calcuttan. Audio equipment purchases should always have some fall-back option, because mismatch and lack of synergy are common. Unfortunately, in Kolkata, we hardly get it. I hope the other places are better.

I agree with you completely on the Creek Evo. In my opinion, it's very poor and does not deserve a price around 50K at all. It's not a clean amp.

Neo, I think the Creek 5350 is now called the Classic. It's okay. The good one (although I have not heard it) is apparently the Destiny and costs 1.25 L.

I have not heard the Cyrus amps, so cannot say anything about them. Pratim, you say they have details. That's good, but is it at the expense of musicality? The reason I am asking is that at times with too much details the sound may just be a bit too much clinical. With a short audition, they may be very impressive, but may be overberaing for extended listening. Neo, you seem to know about these amps, what do you say?

Pratim, you are right about the notion that generally with more sensitive speakers there is less demand of power from the amp. However, it does not reveal all. More details are available elsewhere in this forum.

In any case, irrespective of which one of the amp or the speakers you are going to upgrade, this time it's a must for you to audition with both the equipments together. Do not go and buy anything on the basis of theory, especially when there exists no fall-back option.

More later.

Regards.
 

neo

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I've not heard the evo neither have i heard the destiny, So can't comment. The 5350se was about 80K if i remember it correctly & i don't think it would've cut the cake for paritam.

I've heard the 70watt cyrus as well, it does play louder but if it's the bass that paritam is missing than i don't think it is going to be a big improvement over the 40 watts.

I also don't think you require a sub to enjoy the tabla's or the drums, although i'm not aware as how low your speakers go. IMO B&W 685 doesn't have a very clean bass & the cyrus does'nt have much bass. So it could be a mismatch. Though I've not heard the cyrus,B&W 685 & the CA 640 combo so can't be extremly certain on that. But if adding the sub is solving all your problems you can go for it. May be cranky can throw some light.

I agree with asit that you must audtion the component you intend to change in your existing set up.
All the best
Cheers.
 
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dinyaar

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Hi Guys,
B&W 685s are decent for sure but they can be a little shy.
IMO the problem is the cyrus. Its a clean,lean sounding amp. Its detailed for sure but not over the entire Freq range.
I would not change the speakers or add another cyrus and Bi amp or add the cyrus power. Firstly for what it does cyrus is an expensive option.
Am sorry but a cyrus is not an amplifier that i would put behind these B&Ws. A friend who has this speaker preferred his old Nad C162/272 to the following amps that he auditioned. He tried the Rotel RA 1070, Cyrus 8, Arcam A28, Primare I 30. I did not go along to audition but the consensus was that the Nad was the most musical. Now i hear the set up with his Nad C542 cdp and Kimber cabling and its good. Correctly positioned and on heavy DIY metal stands the speaker sounds big enough for a compact book shelf speaker IMO.

Pratim, yes i have heard Arcam amplifiers with B&W speakers and am familiar with both brands. IMO the combo is sweet. The New FMJ A38 int and P38 power appealed to me for sure and i even had this combo with my 805s (tougher load) for a while.

Why not try getting rid of the amp (cut your losses) and go for a bigger amp. Will the vendor who sold u the cyrus not exchange (since its almost new) for something else from his stables? What else does he have in amplification?
Rgds
 
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psychotropic

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I know this is a slightly strange suggestion, but could Pratim perhaps consider moving his setup to a smaller room, where he can probably get a much more satisfactory level of loudness and punch at a volume level that will not trigger the protection mode. This could be a stopgap for him to enjoy his music at the levels he likes, while he hunts for ways to upgrade or otherwise rectify the situation.
 

Asit

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Why not try getting rid of the amp (cut your losses) and go for a bigger amp. Will the vendor who sold u the cyrus not exchange (since its almost new) for something else from his stables? What else does he have in amplification?
Rgds

Dinyaar,

I think he bought the amp from SKS traders and his speakers from Digital Acoustics, and that was the start of his problems because he could not pair them up and listen.

Now SKS has a few other amps. They are dealers for Creek, CA, Arcam, Cyrus, Cayin and Quad amplifiers. They used to be dealers for Nad too, but they have discontinued that. Out of these I would tend to lean towards the Arcam FMJ A28 for around 70K.

Now, do you think it would be able to drive the 685's? Can you kindly ask your friend who auditioned the A28 with the 685s? The reason this information is necessary is because I just spoke to SKS and they would not bring an Arcam unless ordered.

The SKS guy was all praise for the CA840 amp, but I have never heard it. The CA amps up to 640 I have heard and did not care much for them. Cranky, I think you mentioned somewhere about the 840, if my memory serves me correctly, or were they the 840 separates? Any way, how were they?

Alos, Cranky, (I missed your last post last night) I see that you suggested that Pratim may wait for a year or so and then sell his Cyrus/685 for something better. But if he sells the Cyrus now, wouldn't he get a better price than such a later date? May be the loss will be smaller if he sells that now? What do you say?

BTW, the SKS guy did not sound that favorable when I brought this up, but a new order prospect may wake him up.

Regards.
 

pratimbayal

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Thanks Asit ,Dinyaar and others for your suggestions. Asit you are correct in describing my purchase . Thouh I did not auditioned the entire combo at the time of purchase , this is working fine till the onset of protection mode as Cranky has rightly pointed out. I first tried to get a CA 840 A as suggested by Cranky ( I think it was 840A and not 840 W which is a power amp ) but could not get the deal done since SKS is not that cooperative.

To answer Psycotropic - I thought changing the place but believe me that is not possible. My daughter , Two and half year , likes to dance while I play some musial song ( obviously not very loud) in the space availabe . In my small rooms that place is not availabe

Dinyaar colud you let me know A28 feed back from your freind as suggested by Asit.

Can any one explain the difference between "musical" and "clean(sharp?)" sound . I used NAD C352 ( 80 wpch, I could get it at demo price ) for couple of days and auditioned with my speaker briefly . Yes it was driving the speaker very easy and music was spontaneous ( I do not know whether I am able to express myself) . But I ( Cranky was of same view ) felt it to be less sofisticated. Could a longer audition have given a different impression. Regarding musicality, the dealer from Digital Acuostic was in faovur of NAD compared to Krell , very clean I beleive,( too high a budget for the amp , but sitting in my mind based on feed back from Cranky) for NADs musicality . He also deals in Krell. I did not considered his opinion , I thought it may be a commercial suggestion.


Why I stared looking for upgrade now since I thought if the amp issue is resolved I could keep my set for longer period . And changing now could be less costly. Cranky waht is you view ?


My intention to add a sub is not to resolve the amp issue rather to add bass , as I said I liked that while auditioned in Digital Ac.-Velodyne . If this also improves the amp limitation to some extent thats fine and I can drop the amp upgrade idea for the time being.


Yes Cranky I am keeny waiting for you to listen my final setup , as exist today, in my place and obviously will take any decision after that.
 
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