Amps for Usher Mini Dancer - Help me decide budget and brand

[Asit]

Asit - I sure do understand where Cranky comes from with the Watts point. It is just that I happen to know Ramanujam's listening preferences and he may not be after that last bit of slam that people might be looking for. Again as you very well know it is also a function of the kind of music one listens to.

Vortex,

If you read my first two posts in this thread, you'd notice that I have said what I felt myself based on my own judgement and ability, independently of what cranky thought of the power requirement on the amps to drive the MD1 nicely. It just so happens that Cranky also thinks so. In any case he owns them and knows them inside out (quite literally, because he even modded them).

A plucked string, as I have repeatedly said elsewhere, needs a lot of power reserves for the attack and a lot of refinement for the decay. When Vilayat Khan's or Nikhil Banerjee's sitar is being played, in addition to the proper tonality and detailing of the texture, I also want the beauty of the power involved in forcefully plucking the string and the overall impact and control of the sound resulting from years of practice with upto 12 -14 hours per day.
Unfortunately without a proper matching of the amp and the speakers, this bliss is not achieved. In the case of the MD1 speakers this requires an amp with a lot of power reserves, as I have already said.

You may call it slam, micro-slam (along the lines of microdynamics) or whatever. But tonal purity and impact with a high degree of spontaneity is something every artist even in Indian classical music strives towards. The better systems should provide that. This is what I have meant in my previous posts and this is entirely my opinion, not cranky's. But you should also keep in mind that cranky himself is a musician and has a very refined and much-above-average musical taste, even though he does not like to talk a lot about his musical expertise.


Audio_engr,

Your diagram exactly describes the arrangement I was trying to suggest in my second post. But for that kind of near-field arrangement, I have a feeling a quality tube amp may suit the situation better. This is very similar to how Prem has set up his stuff. But you beat me by the drawing which I would never be able to do.

Regards.

 

[Asit]

You are also quite right that with the renewed setup, the OP can get away with a carefully selected Tube Integrated amplifier but it has to be of good class like Leben, Pathos, or similar! However, I still feel some 30watts of tube power is necessary for those speakers! Ideally an EL34 based push-pull or even a KT-88/6550 based push-pull.

Exactly!

That's why this is what I said in my 2nd post http://www.hifivision.com/amplifier...help-me-decide-budget-brand-2.html#post125773

"Putting speakers only about 7 feet apart may restrict the soundstage appreciably. Ram needs to put them well in front of the back walls to avoid boominess. Now in this kind of an arrangement unless you toe in there will be reflections from the side walls and very poor imaging would result as cranky has pointed out. But if you do too much toeing in, the listening sweet spot will have to be quite near field. I'd actually prefer a tube amp in such a situation (Prem has his equipment set up exactly in this way). But I do not know which ones because Ram would need some serious power reserves to make those speakers sing. Would a CS600 work? Anything else (tube) with a decent quality would be insanely expensive. A Manley would have worked I'd guess, but we do not get them here in India, do we?"

The Stingray and the CS600 have similar power (above 30 W) I guess.

Regards.

 

[suri]

the OP can get away with a carefully selected Tube Integrated amplifier

no - the man needs a good SS audio amplifier. ( and a nice laid-back one - so he can ....!!!!)

 

[suri]

As per Suri then - so much so that some of the soundstage goes all the way to his French Windows - while he can light that Marlboro, stick his feet up, sip some nice Bordeaux or Chardonnay and gaaaazzzzeee into the front :lol: :lol:

Friends - that happens when gobs of WATTS is sitting inside the amp partnering the speaker, waiting to be leashed out while holding the drivers of the speakers with a "vice like grip" and constantly reminding 'em - hey! I am the boss here hence I call the shots & you play by them.

ahaahahahahaha!!!! - audio_engr -

what a superb canvas you have painted for one of the geniuses on our forum!!!-srramanujam.

oh yes - that "iron control" is necessary !!!

 

[srramanujam]

Many thanks Asit, anm, gobble, thevortex, cranky, suri, cmsajith, audio_engr, Sridhar.

On placement, the suggestion of audio_engr can be implemented without antagonising wife. Putting a listening seat(bean bag - i can picturise the dream in audio-engr post) in the sweet spot and keeping the speakers somewhat in the middle of the long wall can be done.

On amps, I will listen to Quad 909. It is only a pre is it?. Many more choices have been suggested and i now have to figure out where to listen to them.

Regards

 

[suri]

where to listen to them?

in your (that) room obeewusly!

 

[Dr.Bass]

I have some "slightly" unconventional recommendations here but I know they are amazing products and they do exceptional things:

1. Octave V40SE : These are paired with Dynaudio Reference Line speakers in audio shows and these drive the Dynaudios with absolute ease...just 40 watts but crazy 40 watts. They are not just powerful but very musical. You can contact Sound of Music in Delhi for more info:
OCTAVE Audio

2. Audio Space Reference 3.1 : I have heard them at Singapore driving ATCs with Gorgeous drive and ease. The Ushers would be a cool breeze for them.
Again very musical and neutral sound with solid Authority. You will not find them in India but is easily available in Singapore. Please contact Audio 88 there.
http://www.audiospace-hifi.com/detail.asp?catid=2270&subcatid=0&pdtid=258770&private=

3. SAC Thailand Glow Master GM70 and KT88: I have not heard them myself but some of the ears that I trust say that these are absolute reference grade products and can drive anything on the Earth. They are available only Factory direct and these guys can customize as per your exact requirement. All you need is a credit card to pay them and the product will be delivered at your doorstep:
SACThailand

4. If at all you want something conventional, try getting a McIntosh: Easily available in Singapore. After a long time I have heard a mainstream brand which sounds so correct and natural.

I believe all these products fall just within your budget. And to me all of them surpass everything that has been discussed so far by miles. Thats just my opinion. I have heard most of the amps discussed here in the thread at least a couple of times. If you can make that little extra effort you can get something really superb.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Just to clarify, out of all the amps discussed here I think Leben is the only one which can compete with the guys I have mentioned above but frankly speaking it cannot drive the Usher. Whoever says it can is only trying to force fit things. If you really like the Leben then Usher needs go and something more matching should come in instead. In fact it is worth doing it for an amp like Leben.
Another brand Accuphase is again superb but way way expensive if you want to get to the right model.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hello AE,
I totally understand what you are saying. I understand this concern very well.
I have only mentioned what I think are super performers at a reasonable price and had I been in a similar situation, I would have these on the top of my list.
Octave is available through "Sound of Music" in Delhi. I am hoping to listen to them sooner than later.
Another thing I have realized is, there are very few dealers who really offer the expected levels of support here in India. As long as one is buying from them it is a good warranty else :sad:. So exploring the neighbouring countries like Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand for great products like these with a good dealer there is not as bad an idea today as it was 5 years back. Especially when you have cheap flight tickets and even cheaper courier guys.
I am sure a Plinius going conk is much difficult to repair back to its original shape considering that it needs to be sent to New Zealand and back than a SACThailand product whose Designer and Manufacturer lives just 3 hours by flight and talks to you at a personal level (something like our dear Viren ji).
I mean it is just my feeling. I hope I have not confused the OP or other people out here, I only tried to help.

 

[soundsgreat]

Hello AE,
I totally understand what you are saying. I understand this concern very well.
I have only mentioned what I think are super performers at a reasonable price and had I been in a similar situation, I would have these on the top of my list.
Octave is available through "Sound of Music" in Delhi. I am hoping to listen to them sooner than later.
Another thing I have realized is, there are very few dealers who really offer the expected levels of support here in India. As long as one is buying from them it is a good warranty else :sad:. So exploring the neighbouring countries like Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand for great products like these with a good dealer there is not as bad an idea today as it was 5 years back. Especially when you have cheap flight tickets and even cheaper courier guys.
I am sure a Plinius going conk is much difficult to repair back to its original shape considering that it needs to be sent to New Zealand and back than a SACThailand product whose Designer and Manufacturer lives just 3 hours by flight and talks to you at a personal level (something like our dear Viren ji).
I mean it is just my feeling. I hope I have not confused the OP or other people out here, I only tried to help.

I kinda agree with DR.Bass on this one !! What he says makes more sense (at least to me) then the Run of Mill solutions !!

I mean common,how many times have we not seen a legally bought product going kaput and folks going through a hell to get it repaired/replaced ??? How many rants we have heard bout lousy dealer after sales support ??

Should one really needs to go through all that pain and still stick to a product which gives no added benefit in what so ever manner ??? Am sorry I don't buy the theory !!

Besides we all are bit careful in handling our equipments and there's absolutely no chance we voluntarily or personally responsible for a product to go bad !! Its just matter of Luck (for those who believe in it,for those who don't add your fav ) !! Suppose you do buy a product with bill and warranty and it goes bad,you take to the original place of purchase,he then sends it to the distributor/importer only to give you a reply that the problem caused does not come under warranty and you are on your own !! WHAT THEN ??


So at the end of the day we have to depend on something then I say We are 1000 times better of depending on Super product,warranty or lack of it should not matter !!

On placement, the suggestion of audio_engr can be implemented without antagonising wife. Putting a listening seat(bean bag - i can picturise the dream in audio-engr post) in the sweet spot and keeping the speakers somewhat in the middle of the long wall can be done.

I again will reiterate the same what I said, For now please don't break your head on that !! first and foremost the setup should be in condition/position to sing !! Then and only then can you decide which orientation suits your needs !! There always room for experiments and it can be done anytime and any number of times untill you get the desired results ! No offense anyone here on this matter, But I think by worrying too much on that will take a toll on the selection of the proper components !! Too much tension takes its toll and its a universal truth !

So Ram I say please go ahead and the said products in your list (should have one) ! Decision should primarily based on the Product and not other things (although that sometimes matters but in country like ours,it hardly does)

Regards.

 

[Asit]

Just to clarify, out of all the amps discussed here I think Leben is the only one which can compete with the guys I have mentioned above but frankly speaking it cannot drive the Usher. Whoever says it can is only trying to force fit things. If you really like the Leben then Usher needs go and something more matching should come in instead. In fact it is worth doing it for an amp like Leben.

Hi Dr. Bass, thanks for your comments on the Leben amp. I am a Leben owner, but I do not have the CS600, I have the tiny CS300 with 93.4 db speakers.

Just to clarify, I guess I am the only one in this thread talking about the Leben, so your comment "Whoever says it can is only trying to force fit things" I guess applies to me.

Actually there is a history I like to share. Quite some time ago, Ramanjujam called me to discuss about amp and speakers. At that time he was interested in the tiny dancers. He wanted to know about my Leben amp. We had nearly one hour telephone session wherein I told him I was very very happy with my amp, but I was also categorical in pointing out that I was not sure if the tiny Leben would be able to drive the tiny dancers. (BTW, the Leben CS300 has been reported to drive many low sensitivity speakers with some degree of comfort including the Harpia Acoustics at 84db; for a full list, please see my amp thread where I have listed about 20 speakers all below 88db). Till the time of that telephone discussion, I never heard an Usher. Later I had the opportunity to hear two Usher speakers: the tiny dancers at Pratim's place driven at the moment by a Ayon CD1 source and Jaton Operetta power amp, and the mini dancers at Cranky's place driven by all sorts of amps built by Cranky including his Pass Labs F5 construction and my Leben CS300. My impression is that the Ushers need enough power reserves from the amp to sound at their best.

My amp drove the MD1 with reasonable comfort at sane volume knob positions except for one Pt. Jasraj CD which has exceptionally low level. But the reason for not whole heartedly recommending this combination is that with my speakers there is a magic which was not present when combined with the mini dancers (BTW this does not necessarily mean my speakers are superior, but just that this combination works better for each component).

Based on the above, I actually asked the question if an amp like the CS600 or the Manley Stingray would fit the bill. It was not a recommendation as such. If you look around, you would find that I usually do not recommend components, because even after nearly 30 years at this I have never been an equipment guy, I am more into music, but the selecting components naturally enter the picture once in a while.

There is another reason for me to raise that kind of question, and this is for the experts. I have always observed that in a given series of speakers the sensitivity always goes up when the size of the speakers also goes up (contrary to what people normally think) for example from BS to FS. Now the tiny and mini - both dancers have a theoretical sensitivity of 85 db I think, but I do not know if those numbers came from data in an anechoic chamber. It could be, just could be that the mini dancres effectively are easier to be driven by lower power amps.

In any case, you have a 40 Watter in your list (crazy watts or not , and you must also know that there are times a 32 Wpc amp can drive certain speakers better than a 40Wpc amp, also because the db is a logarithmic scale, so those extra Watts, even if true Watts, are almost nothing because of the logarithmic scale.

But, let me clarify once again at the end that I raised only a question if a CS600 or a Stingray would be able to drive the MD1 and would be able to produce the magic that the amp is capable of producing when paired with the optimum speakers.

Regards.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hi Dr. Bass, thanks for your comments on the Leben amp. I am a Leben owner, but I do not have the CS600, I have the tiny CS300 with 93.4 db speakers.

Just to clarify, I guess I am the only one in this thread talking about the Leben, so your comment "Whoever says it can is only trying to force fit things" I guess applies to me.

Actually there is a history I like to share. Quite some time ago, Ramanjujam called me to discuss about amp and speakers. At that time he was interested in the tiny dancers. He wanted to know about my Leben amp. We had nearly one hour telephone session wherein I told him I was very very happy with my amp, but I was also categorical in pointing out that I was not sure if the tiny Leben would be able to drive the tiny dancers. (BTW, the Leben CS300 has been reported to drive many low sensitivity speakers with some degree of comfort including the Harpia Acoustics at 84db; for a full list, please see my amp thread where I have listed about 20 speakers all below 88db). Till the time of that telephone discussion, I never heard an Usher. Later I had the opportunity to hear two Usher speakers: the tiny dancers at Pratim's place driven at the moment by a Ayon CD1 source and Jaton Operetta power amp, and the mini dancers at Cranky's place driven by all sorts of amps built by Cranky including his Pass Labs F5 construction and my Leben CS300. My impression is that the Ushers need enough power reserves from the amp to sound at their best.

My amp drove the MD1 with reasonable comfort at sane volume knob positions except for one Pt. Jasraj CD which has exceptionally low level. But the reason for not whole heartedly recommending this combination is that with my speakers there is a magic which was not present when combined with the mini dancers (BTW this does not necessarily mean my speakers are superior, but just that this combination works better for each component).

Based on the above, I actually asked the question if an amp like the CS600 or the Manley Stingray would fit the bill. It was not a recommendation as such. If you look around, you would find that I usually do not recommend components, because even after nearly 30 years at this I have never been an equipment guy, I am more into music, but the selecting components naturally enter the picture once in a while.

There is another reason for me to raise that kind of question, and this is for the experts. I have always observed that in a given series of speakers the sensitivity always goes up when the size of the speakers also goes up (contrary to what people normally think) for example from BS to FS. Now the tiny and mini - both dancers have a theoretical sensitivity of 85 db I think, but I do not know if those numbers came from data in an anechoic chamber. It could be, just could be that the mini dancres effectively are easier to be driven by lower power amps.

In any case, you have a 40 Watter in your list (crazy watts or not , and you must also know that there are times a 32 Wpc amp can drive certain speakers better than a 40Wpc amp, also because the db is a logarithmic scale, so those extra Watts, even if true Watts, are almost nothing because of the logarithmic scale.

But, let me clarify once again at the end that I raised only a question if a CS600 or a Stingray would be able to drive the MD1 and would be able to produce the magic that the amp is capable of producing when paired with the optimum speakers.

Regards.

Hi Asit, I did not really mean to point out anything at you. I just read through this thread and summarily wrote what I thought. I have heard a CS600 few times now, nice amp but not for Ushers. Again I would repeat, I would readily forego an Usher for a Leben to work but I would not keep both.

 

[odyssey]

My opinions -

"drive" as it relates to amps driving speakers is quite relative. E.g. the Jaton Operetta drive < odyssey Khartago < Stratos Extreme < Symphonic Line
Saying that some amp does not drive the MD-1 is all relative, if in the end sonic output satisfies the listener for his tastes, for the music, loudness and room size, this is enough. In this context let me say that the CS600 does very well with the MD-1 - this is something we use in our showroom quite often. Does it have the slam of the above SS amps or say the Ayon Spirit? no, but that alone does not make the latter a better amp in my book. In the end its about compromise and which compromise you are willing to live with. In any case the CS600 is quite a bit above the budget the OP is looking at, so this may be a moot point.

In the context of buying something from outside the country with no support, this is again a personal choice - weighing risks to price factor. Most people who are not into this as a hobby, DIY, etc dont do this - rather depends on the component also. For e.g. buying importing a TVC is one thing as there isnt much that can go wrong, buying a component from Shindo Labs can be a disaster, why? because the manufacturer does not speak english and will insist on going to your nearest dealer for support. These equipments have to get shipped back the the manufacturer for repair.

There needs to be a differentiation between
1. buying what you like because its not available here or its good value even considering the service risk
and
2. buying it outside for the reason that most dealers here arent providing service that you are entitled to

keep in mind that #2 can happen outside the country as well. This is just plain bad service and you as a customer should do your homework before plunking down money. There are good dealers and bad dealers everywhere and yes I have heard some horror stories but this is why forums are there to share information/feedback/opnions.

cheers

 

[srramanujam]

Many thanks - Asit, Sridhar, Dr Bass, soundsgreat and Suri,


1. I will find it difficult to source and take care of equipment from outside India. I would be happy to take a chance on equipment sold in India (even if not serviced well), but the extra leg of international makes me a little apprehensive. I bought a Philips DVD player in Malaysia for a bomb in 2000 and it conked off in exactly 30 seconds. It took me close to a year to get it serviced in India although it was covered with a universal warranty. It has lessons both on service quality of Indian outfits (Philips in India) and on the risk of sourcing equipment from outside India.

So my preference would be to look at a) equipment in India, serviced reliably and b) good equipment without the same service assurance

2. I will stay away from placement thoughts till i can get something physical to place it somewhere.

3. Based on suggestions, the list i have is
a) Quad 909 (if i build a HTPC i could control volume through that i suppose),
b) Accuphase (too expensive for me),
c) Usher R 1.5,
d) Arcam P38,
e)used Usher Power amp,
f) used Quad pre power combo
g) Odysseey Stratos
h) CA 840

Do i need to add more to this list.

Many of the suggestions are on power amp. What should i do about the pre (or) is it not necessary if i use a PC?

 

[Dr.Bass]

Do add the Octave V40SE to your list. Its available in India and should be a superb amp for your application.

 

[jai1611]

The PC volume control option is sub optimal. It depends on what software (OS, player, drivers) and hardware (soundcard or dac) solution you are using but generally its hard enough to get bit perfect output from a PC without adding volume control in the mix. It might be better to add a simple passive preamp in the middle if using a power amp provided you keep your interconnect runs short.

The couple of amps that I would add to the list are Parasound Halo power amps (A23 is 125 WPC, high current, clean sounding and costs ~63k) and the Yamaha AS-2000. Also, the Atoll amps (I briefly heard the Atoll setup with a pair of Xavian speakers and came away with a favourable impression). I think their 100wpc integrated is around the 80k mark (not sure though)

 

[longshanks]

Ive not heard the mini dancer but from what ive read in this thread i would like to add two more amplifiers to the list.

Marantz PM-15S2

Yamaha A-S2000

 

[thevortex]

The PC volume control option is sub optimal. It depends on what software (OS, player, drivers) and hardware (soundcard or dac) solution you are using but generally its hard enough to get bit perfect output from a PC without adding volume control in the mix. It might be better to add a simple passive preamp in the middle if using a power amp provided you keep your interconnect runs short.

The couple of amps that I would add to the list are Parasound Halo power amps (A23 is 125 WPC, high current, clean sounding and costs ~63k) and the Yamaha AS-2000. Also, the Atoll amps (I briefly heard the Atoll setup with a pair of Xavian speakers and came away with a favourable impression). I think their 100wpc integrated is around the 80k mark (not sure though)

Jai - without taking away from this thread, there are ways to achieve the PC volume control relatively painlessly once you have ensured that you are using ASIO drivers and all. The bit perfect part of it is a huge black hole that we may not want to venture into at all, if you know what I mean . Ultimately instead of changing the volume of the sound card, you could end up adjusting volume in the player such as cPlay or foobar.

 

[srramanujam]

Quite a sick feeling.

The speakers have been lying in the house for the past two weeks. Still struggling with the amplifier and HTPC/ Media Server/CDP choice. Looks like the wood will age by the time i take the next step.

Starting a new thread for borrowing some components.