Any objective measurements available for Audio Products ( eg Indiq audio)

[Enkay78]

Pretty dogmatic and pompous, especially the brainwashed part.

You own the Kali speakers which possibly attracted you as they publish detailed specs and measurements which you porbably correlated to you listening justification aswell before buying.

Let me give an example of Dynaudio, a company in existence for almost 50 years.
They cater to
1. Home audio customers where the 95% so-termed brainwashed customers fall,
2. Studio professionals
3. Car audio (both OEM and open market)
4. Turnkey projects

If you look at their Home Audio offerings, you will find basic specs like 99% of all leading brands do, but no measurements
If you look at their studio series, you will find detalied specs and measurements
The same goes with open market car audio series as lots of customization take place due to vagaries of car environments

You will find this essential feature with almost all speaker manufacturers who build for both studio professionals and home listeners.

The intention of not providing measurements is not with an intent to cheat or influence. It is simply because it does not serve any purpose to a large percentage of home audio customers.

It is altogether a different scenario with studio professionals as these line of speakers are used for music reproduction is a professional environment like a treated space like a studio.

Well we can clarify few things:

1. Most people on this earth does not care about hi-fidelity because they are limited to their exposure to hi-fidelity. Factors are economic, logistics, manufacturing, and perhaps the priority of hi-fidelity being lower than what’s happening in their life. Fo such population a simple radio/mobile/Bluetooth speakers are more than enough. For such population, the interest lies in the music sans quality of reproduction.
However given the opportunities and resources, this same populace do have an inclination to certain sonic qualities. And these have been well defined by audio research.

2. From amongst the billions of world population, there is a segment which can comprise about 0.1 to 1% (it’s a rough guesstimate from my side) who has the resources, finances and interest for music and hi-fidelity. These cohort, in addition to having acquired taste, have been exposed to better quality sonic reproduction….either as part of their lifestyle or exposure to audio experiences.(maybe commensurate with their class). For this populace the priorities over audio quality may be as much par with living. And audiophiles are the niche complement of this populace.

3. The hypotheses that all class of people does incline to certain sound from speakers has been researched. So given an exposure and means to such reproduction 100% of people of this planet will prefer it……including all the wives of the husbands in this world. Heck some animals are proven to prefer certain classical music.

4. Consumer audio electronics manufacturers have a priority over scale. However these manufacturers do adopt a modicum of measurements needed for the electronics involved. And a certain acceptable level of audio quality. So seemingly measurements and specs may be overridden by features sought out by the major populace. And it involves economics of scale.

5. The niche market of hi-fidelity do bank on measurements. That’s the rationale of the evolution of hand spun turntable to the current state of art amplification and audio reproduction.


Gen X and future generations are being exposed to superior audio reproduction treats at the level of their smartphone and headphones. If one can observe the industry , Dolby is being pushed, the drivers of earphones are much higher quality now. The demand for better quality is being pushed from both sides of consumer and manufacturers/vendors. USA and EU can be mature markets……but look at the evolution of audio in China and Asia.

In future, again let me reiterate, measurements will play a big role. Have some faith in the younger generations. The obsession may not be at audiophile level…..but hey look at the Sony headphone and Bose series and yes the NCs.

 

[Bloom@83]

Well we can clarify few things:

3. The hypotheses that all class of people does incline to certain sound from speakers has been researched. So given an exposure and means to such reproduction 100% of people of this planet will prefer it……including all the wives of the husbands in this world. Heck some animals are proven to prefer certain classical music.

What about the lesbians , gays , bisexuals and trans ? This research has excluded them totally ? That’s a crying shame.

 

[keith_correa]

I especially like the last two lines, hence quoting here:
"Build personal church if realistic reverb, spaciousness and envelopment are the main interests in the music reproduction and that sound field is decided to be the only correct. If maximum dynamics, buy dynamite, explode indoors and listen as long as you hear and feed something."

How about that..

Reads like total gobbledygook to me. What the hell is that even supposed to mean? Personal church? Explode dynamite indoors?

 

[arj]

The intention of not providing measurements is not with an intent to cheat or influence. It is simply because it does not serve any purpose to a large percentage of home audio customers.

+1. Of course. I would not buy a component if i thought there was no Engineering to specs or design with no measurements and thats a basic hygiene factor to even come to a shortlist of options.

But most of buyers have no intent to learn measurements and specs to evaluate as its expected the manufacturer would have done that..idea is to listen and can feel the music., Exactly as I would want to drive and feel a car and trust the engineers to have built it to specs, or eat a creme brulee for the taste

 

[Enkay78]

A simple study of evolution of Bluetooth codec to apt x lossless have the tell tale ……….

+1. Of course. I would not buy a component if i thought there was no Engineering to specs or design with no measurements and thats a basic hygiene factor to even come to a shortlist of options.

But most of buyers have no intent to learn measurements and specs to evaluate as its expected the manufacturer would have done that..idea is to listen and can feel the music., Exactly as I would want to drive and feel a car and trust the engineers to have built it to specs, or eat a creme brulee for the taste

that’s because all these years marketing has been targeted to right brain. And that’s where the moolah lies. But it will interesting for upheavals to happen in any industry. Let’s see in future. Education always do have impacts especially if it means democratising knowledge.

 

[keith_correa]

Not publishing measurements as par for the course is all fine and understood. What about if a manufacturer refuses to divulge this information even when asked for it? What's the take on that specific point?

 

[arj]

Not publishing measurements as par for the course is all fine and understood. What about if a manufacturer refuses to divulge this information even when asked for it? What's the take on that specific point?

That a perfectly valid reason not to buy it.

If anyone feels the need to evaluate an equipment based on certain measurements which are important to them, one should of course not buy it and its the manufacturers problem of loss of revenue .

After all its the buyer choice of buying and sellers choice in selling !

 

[Kannan]

that’s because all these years marketing has been targeted to right brain. And that’s where the moolah lies. But it will interesting for upheavals to happen in any industry. Let’s see in future. Education always do have impacts especially if it means democratising knowledge.

You completely missed the point when I cited the example of Dynaudio. I will just leave it here.
Happy listening

 

[Vineethkumar01]

Reads like total gobbledygook to me. What the hell is that even supposed to mean? Personal church? Explode dynamite indoors?

Sarcasm
On top of that Kimmo's mother tongue is not English. Savo to English translation might have played its part.
Anyway the intention, as per my understanding, was to convey that every speaker design is based on a design goal set in terms of measurements or set in terms of one's ideas about perfect reproduction of sound. In his own words, 'recordings are what they are so "perfect and realistic" - whatever it means remains utopia'.
In terms of "realistic and perfect" reproduction, if one's design goal is to achieve "realistic reverb, spaciousness and envelopment", go build a personal church, play music (live/recorded) there and experience those aspects. That would be better than expecting a loudspeaker to reproduce such a sound field. If one's design goal is to achieve "maximum dynamics" in reproduction of sound, there is nothing better than "exploding a dynamite indoors" as it will enable one to hear an impulse like sound without any power compression (which happens in real loudspeakers to different extents). So loudspeaker designs will have compromises and their own way of presenting the signal supplied to it.

 

[keith_correa]

Sarcasm
On top of that Kimmo's mother tongue is not English. Savo to English translation might have played its part.
Anyway the intention, as per my understanding, was to convey that every speaker design is based on a design goal set in terms of measurements or set in terms of one's ideas about perfect reproduction of sound. In his own words, 'recordings are what they are so "perfect and realistic" - whatever it means remains utopia'.
In terms of "realistic and perfect" reproduction, if one's design goal is to achieve "realistic reverb, spaciousness and envelopment", go build a personal church, play music (live/recorded) there and experience those aspects. That would be better than expecting a loudspeaker to reproduce such a sound field. If one's design goal is to achieve "maximum dynamics" in reproduction of sound, there is nothing better than "exploding a dynamite indoors" as it will enable one to hear an impulse like sound without any power compression (which happens in real loudspeakers to different extents). So loudspeaker designs will have compromises and their own way of presenting the signal supplied to it.

Still gobbledygook to me!

The intention of not providing measurements is not with an intent to cheat or influence. It is simply because it does not serve any purpose to a large percentage of home audio customers.

Should we then agree that the intent of not providing measurements when a tiny percentage of home audio customers specifically ask for it would constitute an intent to cheat? Actually "cheat" would be the wrong word to use in this context. Intent to "hide" would be more like it. Non transparent.

 

[square_wave]

@Enkay78 , I have a few questions. Your personal speaker seems to be the Kali LP8. I am sure you picked them up because of its published specifications.

When you listen to other high end loudspeakers, in case one of them sound way better, would you buy them ? If so, do the measurements of the other speaker have to be better than the Kali for you to buy them ?

When you listen to other loudspeakers, in case you find one that sound way better, does it also measure better ?

If you have come across speakers that sound way better but have similar measurements as the kali, what are those "other " parameters that makes them sound way better ?

Studio loudspeakers that cost less than 500 $ typically measure way better than many high end home audio ones. Using the same logic, the best loudspeaker for home has to be the high end active studio over-engineered loudspeakers. Most musicians or sound engineers wont even have them inside their homes. They prefer home loudspeakers to come home and relax. Why is that ? I personally know a few such people. Flat measuring studio speakers are work tools. Not for enjoying music.

 

[raghupb]

<snip>
Now waiting for this thread to descend into a tangential and bizarre debate.
<snip>

Is this the right time to say, "I told you so!!"
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[mbhangui]

Still gobbledygook to me!

From what I understood is that it is impossible for loudspeakers to imitate the reverb that happens in a church because of the geometry with domes, large halls, etc. So if you like that sound the only realistic solution is to build your own church and play music in it. Similary there is a limit to the amount of compression that a speaker driver can achieve. The sound of a dynamite exploding comes from the extreme compression of air in just few milliseconds. You can never reproduce that sound using a speaker where it can move air across the entire room and blow you away with other things in the room.

 

[Bloom@83]

Flat measuring studio speakers are work tools. Not for enjoying music.

and now you’ll be hit with the weird logic that those speakers , only those speakers , reproduce music the way the musicians / mastering engineer intended.

déjà vu …

 

[square_wave]

and now you’ll be hit with the weird logic that those speakers , only those speakers , reproduce music the way the musicians / mastering engineer intended.

déjà vu …

Lol. Btw, if you have a perfectly treated room like how you get in the studio, those speakers sound pretty awesome. They use it to dissect music and take decisions. Finally the master that goes out for the CD is a dynamically compressed one that will sound good on mainstream speakers only. Now, people go out and buy studio speakers and when they play music at home through those speakers, they don't realise the crucial fact that the " Final master that went out for CD " was meant to be listened to on a mainstream speaker. Unless the recording is an audiophile grade one. Even those are tuned for audiophile speakers !

 

[Bloom@83]

Lol. Btw, if you have a perfectly treated room like how you get in the studio, those speakers sound pretty awesome. They use it to dissect music and take decisions. Finally the master that goes out for the CD is a dynamically compressed one that will sound good on mainstream speakers only. Now, people go out and buy studio speakers and when they play music at home through those speakers, they don't realise the crucial fact that the " Final master that went out for CD " was meant to be listened to on a mainstream speaker. Unless the recording is an audiophile grade one. Even those are tuned for audiophile speakers !

Precisely. This point was reiterated ad infinitum on several similar discussions in the past by many, and fell on deaf ears.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Flat measuring studio speakers are work tools. Not for enjoying music.

I have finally tweaked my OB loudspeaker to measure flat +/- 1.5dB 100 Hz to 10 khz. Anyone interested to discover how bad they sound are welcome for a listen. That should put an end to this debate. -

Btw, I have zero room treatment in my home. Only the usual furniture.

 

[k-pad]

I don't understand what's so secret about making measurements public. Not providing measurements may actually hamper sales. Many speaker buyers ask me about opinions and i can't probably go around listening to them to provide my inputs. So I rely on measured results for my opinion. A friend asked me about India speakers and i told him it's your risk as I don't see any measurements to suggest. So atleast in this case they lost one customer.

If the measured results are good, the speaker designer will be happy and proud to publish them. Only if they have something to hide they won't provide. Again thats me.

Exactly!
Many global consumer speaker manufacturers are loathe to share measurements. And i really don't understand why.
Leave alone in public domain, i have privately written to Klipsch, XTZ, MA, and Golden Ear.
All but XTZ reacted like it was some blasphemy.

Even XTZ, while kind enough to respond positively, shared only on-axis response among the many i had asked.

All we are left with are third-party measures. One European magazine used to present detailed measurements of speakers they review in print. If you go through enough google pages, you can find these. (i think Stereophile)

The only ones happy to publish upfront are boutique manufacturers like Salk, BMR, etc.

And i would also say, measurements are kind of important - one very popular speaker's characteristics in the high-end is clearly borne out by its measurements.

That buyers don't mind even after listening to it is another matter.

Ditto with another manufacturer and their sensitivity claim.

In short, where available, always useful to compare measurements with what your ears discern. It does reveal some things at least.
Regards

 

[Enkay78]

One thing we can do is:

We all have a satisfying system right? Let these systems be measured using a standard protocol - say using an UMIK-1 at x distance with the mic at y direction to the speaker.

Let's compile all these measurements and calculate SD (standard deviations) with reference to the FRs (benchmark with Harman or any standard accepted audio FR)

Yes, the room response will vary and acoustics may differ. And yes the amps/dacs/speakers permutations will add confounding errors into such study.

But the point is this : we, at each individual level, will be preferring the sound of our system/had tuned them to our liking. So this study will be a study of that. That way the measurements will be about what we like at our individual ends. Let's plot the FRs and see where our taste lies - whether these measurements show a common preference or varies to a large extend.

Won't it be interesting? This way we can be more scientific to our arguments?

 

[Analogous]

95% don't care about measurements because they are being brainwashed by the influencers/marketing/boutique sellers and myth mongerers.


Once people get more educated about measurements, things will come around. Research has proven so many times that measurements related with speakers/sonic preferences of trained and untrained ears. Most of the people have a common preference of frequency curve.

Its actually the muddiness of voodoo in consumer hi-fi sector that's playing SPOILSPORT for a healthy hobby.

Personally I see changes coming around. In future measurement(s) is going to play a big factor in decision making. And yes evidences are mounting where the subjectives reviews are being ratified with measurements........and yes vice versa.

For me good measurements are a must foundation for my buying decisions. It's about transparency for design/engineering and trust. So much like Evidence Based Medicine (EBM), I am banking for a Evidence Based HiFidelity (EBH). (and yes its coming around to this....just watch the hifi space for few years more).

Like buying a masala mix based on the accurate proportion of ingredients used?