Anyone digitizing their CD music collection?

IndianEars

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mbhangui, the wav vs flac debate will go on.

Some speculate the SQ Difference is due to the extra Horse power required for Real Time Conversion by the computer during playback. Ofcourse it can be argued that the incremental computing is miniscule.... What ever the reason, I believe wav sounds better to my ears and on my setup.

We all have our beliefs... :)
 

IndianEars

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This is an amazing post. I am one of those still with a Plextor Hangup :rolleyes: so this is Very Helpful

Is there any advantage to getting the bigger drive over a slimline one ? I am not too bothered about burning skills , just want to make sure the read is good. Have close to 1000+Cds..need to get down to digitizing some of them !
Thanks, Arj, for your kind words.

My Thoughts....

1. The Bigger drive will be mechanically more robust

The Internal (Bigger) drive will have a faster, SATA interface that provides a better link to the drive (even though USB-2 is More than adequate for Audio & video DVDs.

Since I use an iMac (running Win 10) with no provision for an internal drive, I use an external (USB) DVD drive to rip.

My Rips yield excellent Accurip results, I am happy.
 

MIOM

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Regarding your DAC, I know this is Always a Very Touchy subject with all Audiophiles, (and even more so with DIYer ;) )

Again, no offence meant and I would have happily dropped the topic if not for your insistence :)

Well, I did ask. And I actually read that review when researching. Anyway,

1) I'm aware this is an audiophile site, so I fully expect some will have strong opinions on what they consider high-end and low-end. In fact, I knew someone would broach the topic, especially where file formats are concerned here.

2) I'm also aware sound is a very subjective topic with everyone offering differing opinions based on "their" ears (not everyone hears the same frequencies).

3) The fact that I have a huge music collection doesn't mean I need to buy a super-duper uber system. I happy with what I have. It may not be a Mark Levison, but I like it... and it didn't cost Mark Levison money.

This isn't defensive talk, it's actually how I honestly feel. I love good quality gear; and if you knew me, you'd know that. But you'd also know I'm not a believer of paying a mint for a 2% subjective "sound" improvement. That's me.

I'm no hater and do appreciate those willing to buy the very best. I had a friend who had a $200.000-dollar system. Yes, two hundred thousand dollars!!! He always had parties showcasing his system, and we were always too happy to show just to hear said system. That said, I never once went home afterwards and thought... I need to dump my $3000 system. I simply appreciated what "I" had.

BTW, you'll find I have strong opinions about a lot of things, but it's nothing personal - I'm simply replying to a post. I'm also aware this is a forum where everyone has an opinion so if one is easily offended, perhaps a forum isn't for you ;)

Oh, and you can call me Drew :)

And probably not for you but my amateur review of the Sennheiser HD700 cans with the Teac UD-503
 

mbhangui

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mbhangui, the wav vs flac debate will go on.

Some speculate the SQ Difference is due to the extra Horse power required for Real Time Conversion by the computer during playback. Ofcourse it can be argued that the incremental computing is miniscule..
If that happens, it will result in underrun, which I haven't yet seen. The buffer for dac is never emplty with decoded data.
We all have our beliefs... :)
True. Hearing is not just the ears, it is the brain too. The moment one hears about an unobtanium metal that needs to be placed under the dac to make it sound better, music never sounds the same till we obtain the unobtanium metal spikes to be placed under that dac :). So whatever rocks your music and as long as one is enjoying, damn science and measurements
 

arj

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Thanks, Arj, for your kind words.

My Thoughts....

1. The Bigger drive will be mechanically more robust

The Internal (Bigger) drive will have a faster, SATA interface that provides a better link to the drive (even though USB-2 is More than adequate for Audio & video DVDs.

Since I use an iMac (running Win 10) with no provision for an internal drive, I use an external (USB) DVD drive to rip.

My Rips yield excellent Accurip results, I am happy.
Thanks and that makes sense. If i do use a DVD drive to use with my Mac, is there any enclosure you would recommend to house it in ?
 

fLUX

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fLUX: Have you considered ripping to a .wav + .cue file ?

For all practical purposes, it creates an image of an audio CD. EAC & dBPA both offer this option.

Further the image can be directly played by JRiver, Foobar etc.

Also the image files can easily be split into individual tracks.

Thanks for the great input, was not aware both could be achieved in a single shot. If it does both .cue and .wav at same time then nothing like it , will save a lot of time.
 

IndianEars

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Nah, Arj. I use the External USB drive ... As Is...
*I was an active member of the Hi-Fi Forum then hosted on Yahoo (Now shut down). Incidentally, that forum was the predecessor of this forum.
There was a thread on CD Ripping & Burning, and proud of my Plextor, I ran tests on the C1 & C2 errors (mainly C2 errors) on the original and burnt CDRs, via the Plextor and my old, vanilla Sony. I was surprised at the results (which I posted on the forum)... The Plextor's CDRs were no better than the Sony :oops:. (I forget the software I used a decade ago for detecting C2 errors. If archives of the earlier forum are still there, you will find details there)

I found a Link to that Thread on C2 Errors .... My handle there was Amp_Nut
 

IndianEars

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Thanks for the great input, was not aware both could be achieved in a single shot. If it does both .cue and .wav at same time then nothing like it , will save a lot of time.
The 2 files are:
a single .wav file (typically about 650 MB) containing the entire CD (including the inter-track silence)
a .cue file, (Typically 5KB) which contains all the CD meta data like Album & artist name as well as the thge start and stop times of each track.

The Playback software like JRiver or Foobar, opens the .cue file, takes all the clues from it and plays the selected frack by going to that point where the track starts.

Here is a typical Cue File ( for ALLAN Taylor - Leaving At Dawn )
Front.jpg
REM GENRE Folk
REM DATE 2009
REM DISCID 910D8C0C
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
TITLE "Leaving At Dawn"
FILE "Allan Taylor - Leaving At Dawn.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Winter"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "The Almost Man"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 03:53:59
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Back Home To You"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 10:25:05
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Provence"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 15:08:04
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Firefly"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 18:53:63
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Lay Soft On Your Pillow"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 25:01:07
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "New York In The Seventies"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 29:06:70
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "The Last Of The Privateers"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 35:16:56
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Leaving At Dawn"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 40:59:37
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "It Could Have Been"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 45:18:47
TRACK 11 AUDIO
TITLE "Make Another Turn"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 01 48:54:74
TRACK 12 AUDIO
TITLE "Red On Green"
PERFORMER "Allan Taylor"
INDEX 00 54:01:60
INDEX 01 54:02:60


Observe the Track title and the time markers for each track.

Incidentally, CD dadabases recognise each CD by the combo of individual track durations, and the Inter track silences.

If tracks are ripped separately, and then burnt on a CDR, a standard 2 second inter track silence is inserted. This completely destroys the CD Identity,
as far as the CD databases are concerned.

However burning the Cue + wav file recreates the original CD ID

Also Chopping the single large .wav file into individual tracks by Foobar or Medevial file splitter is a trival affair... The program simply takes track time the markers from the cue file, and chops the wav file into individual tracks.

NOTE: Roon cannot handle cue files :rolleyes:
 

Sean de Silva

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3. You can rip into a cue file + wav file or individual tracks as separate wav files. Both sound the same, but some programs like Roon will not play .cue files. JRiver will play both perfectly. On the other hand, if you burn the .cue + wav file to a CDR, it will always be recognised as the original CD.
Separate tracks ripped and burnt to a CDR will not be recognised as the original CD.
fLUX: Have you considered ripping to a .wav + .cue file ?

For all practical purposes, it creates an image of an audio CD. EAC & dBPA both offer this option.

Further the image can be directly played by JRiver, Foobar etc.

Also the image files can easily be split into individual tracks.
I am so disappointed now because I did not know this earlier while using dBp :(

1. Would this explain why the cdp doesn't recognise a CDR burnt with seperate wav tracks but a dvdp does?

2. I have a few cds with disc rot. Most of them have ripped fine with no skips or breaks despite several pin-sized holes. When I burnt a CDR with seperate tracks the cdp wouldn't read the disc however the dvdp had no issues. Hence wondering if I should make peace with what I've done and enjoy the ripped wav files on hdd (via the allo boss 2) or should I begin the painful arduous task of re-ripping the collection with the .wav+.cue file just so that I can "preserve" the original gradually degrading cd with a new physical copy that the cdp will recognise?
@IndianEars your inputs would be appreciated.
 

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@IndianEars : While burning a blank Disc using Burrrn , an option is on by default : Dither with Medium Noise Shaping.
Should one turn this off or keep as is ?
For context : I have bought few legitimate wav files (16/44) from a certain site which I want to copy on my CD.
 
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IndianEars

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Sorry, [email protected] I am not familiar with Burrrn, and have no idea about the implications of this option.

Googling gave me this pointer from the hydrogenAudio forum:

"You should add dither after each processing of audio data.
When you burn the audio data just as it has been on the original CD (like in your flac file) you do not need to add dither.
But if you apply ReplayGain you altered the audio data and should aplly dither.

See here to understand why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Digital_audio"



I would not adjust Replay Gain while burning, unless your tracks are at radically different audio levels.

FWIW, I have stopped burning music to CDRs for several reasons.... My CD Player lens has faded away... also (Ahem :D) the Burn CDs seem to have all the notes and detail of the original disc, but there is just no soul in the CDR music .... I guess U can call me crazy .....
 

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Sorry, [email protected] I am not familiar with Burrrn, and have no idea about the implications of this option.

Googling gave me this pointer from the hydrogenAudio forum:

"You should add dither after each processing of audio data.
When you burn the audio data just as it has been on the original CD (like in your flac file) you do not need to add dither.
But if you apply ReplayGain you altered the audio data and should aplly dither.

See here to understand why:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Digital_audio"



I would not adjust Replay Gain while burning, unless your tracks are at radically different audio levels.

FWIW, I have stopped burning music to CDRs for several reasons.... My CD Player lens has faded away... also (Ahem :D) the Burn CDs seem to have all the notes and detail of the original disc, but there is just no soul in the CDR music .... I guess U can call me crazy .....
Thanks , that’s a help. I disabled the dither option.
PS: To this day I relish playing physical media (CDs and LPs ) on dedicated players rather than playing / streaming high res. But that’s just me.
 

IndianEars

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I am so disappointed now because I did not know this earlier while using dBp :(

1. Would this explain why the cdp doesn't recognise a CDR burnt with seperate wav tracks but a dvdp does?

2. I have a few cds with disc rot. Most of them have ripped fine with no skips or breaks despite several pin-sized holes. When I burnt a CDR with seperate tracks the cdp wouldn't read the disc however the dvdp had no issues. Hence wondering if I should make peace with what I've done and enjoy the ripped wav files on hdd (via the allo boss 2) or should I begin the painful arduous task of re-ripping the collection with the .wav+.cue file just so that I can "preserve" the original gradually degrading cd with a new physical copy that the cdp will recognise?
@IndianEars your inputs would be appreciated.
Sean, in response to your queries:

1. Apologies, I do not know the system via which CD / DVD Players display Disc & Track details. I sadly have never had such a player. My Denon Universal Player & Electrocompaniet EC-1UP CD player (of yore!) only displayed Track numbers and Elapsed and remaining time :(

2. Again, not sure why yr CD player would not read the CDR while the DVD would ..... Maybe the CD Player is old and its laser is fading... but then, it should have problems reading Most CDRs.

CDRs use a dye whose reflectivity changes when Burnt. The receiving of a CDR is only 30% of a pressed CD, hence if the laser does not throw enough light on the CDR, not enough is reflected, resulting in the CDR not reading.

An early sign / warning of a fading laser is that CDRs do not read consistently.

Ripping into a wav + cue file will certainly provide you an archive format for the original CD. Select the "Rip with least Errors" (or similar) option in EAC / dbPA.

I have sadly, for now, moved to Computer Audio for my music replay, but have kept all my CDs in case I find and buy a new CD Transport ...

The Jay's Transport looks
Cracking Up Lol GIF by Rodney Dangerfield
but the price ..........
 
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jls001

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I am so disappointed now because I did not know this earlier while using dBp :(

1. Would this explain why the cdp doesn't recognise a CDR burnt with seperate wav tracks but a dvdp does?

2. I have a few cds with disc rot. Most of them have ripped fine with no skips or breaks despite several pin-sized holes. When I burnt a CDR with seperate tracks the cdp wouldn't read the disc however the dvdp had no issues. Hence wondering if I should make peace with what I've done and enjoy the ripped wav files on hdd (via the allo boss 2) or should I begin the painful arduous task of re-ripping the collection with the .wav+.cue file just so that I can "preserve" the original gradually degrading cd with a new physical copy that the cdp will recognise?
@IndianEars your inputs would be appreciated.
@Sean de Silva
Sean,
For a dedicated CD player to recognise a CD it needs to be burned as "Audio CD" in the burner software like Nero. Each of the .wav files to be burned MUST be 16 bit at 44.1 kHz sampling. Remember: .wav, 16 bit, 44.1 kHz ONLY.

If you simply burn .wav files onto a blank CDR, it is not an Audio CD. If you insert this burned CD into a computer's optical drive, you will be able to view the individual .wav files. On true ACDs you will not be able to view the audio files. You'll only see some small sized (1 KB-ish) system files.
 

arj

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+1 to @jls001

An Audio cd is written in a format called Redbook where it is encoded with an algorithm for redundancy and stored as words via the Reed Solomon algorithm and not traditional 0/1. A cd transport reads the words and then uses the RS algorithm to decode it into the PCM format.

It is not in 0s/1s as in a digital file like a wav ..thats a Yellow book format.
 

Sean de Silva

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Sean, in response to your queries:

1. Apologies, I do not know the system via which CD / DVD Players display Disc & Track details. I sadly have never had such a player. My Denon Universal Player & Electrocompaniet EC-1UP CD player (of yore!) only displayed Track numbers and Elapsed and remaining time :(

2. Again, not sure why yr CD player would not read the CDR while the DVD would ..... Maybe the CD Player is old and its laser is fading... but then, it should have problems reading Most CDRs.

CDRs use a dye whose reflectivity changes when Burnt. The receiving of a CDR is only 30% of a pressed CD, hence if the laser does not throw enough light on the CDR, not enough is reflected, resulting in the CDR not reading.

An early sign / warning of a fading laser is that CDRs do not read consistently.

Ripping into a wav + cue file will certainly provide you an archive format for the original CD. Select the "Rip with least Errors" (or similar) option in EAC / dbPA.

I have sadly, for now, moved to Computer Audio for my music replay, but have kept all my CDs in case I find and buy a new CD Transport ...

The Jay's Transport looks
Cracking Up Lol GIF by Rodney Dangerfield
but the price ..........
@Sean de Silva
Sean,
For a dedicated CD player to recognise a CD it needs to be burned as "Audio CD" in the burner software like Nero. Each of the .wav files to be burned MUST be 16 bit at 44.1 kHz sampling. Remember: .wav, 16 bit, 44.1 kHz ONLY.

If you simply burn .wav files onto a blank CDR, it is not an Audio CD. If you insert this burned CD into a computer's optical drive, you will be able to view the individual .wav files. On true ACDs you will not be able to view the audio files. You'll only see some small sized (1 KB-ish) system files.
Thanks @IndianEars for your insight.

@jls001 whenever I've copied an audio CD all these years it has been a hit-or-miss operation afaic, I have always chosen the 'audio-cd' option in nero and yet the yamaha/marantz/nad cdp would sometimes read the cdr but mostly would not maybe due to improper lead-in/lead-out? (even though the burn process showed as completed without any buffer errors with burning at the slowest speed) or possibly a fading laser. I have also noticed the 1kb-ish files on an original audio cd.

I've had an epiphany right now - I am not putting myself through that cd ripping bondage all over again HELL NO!!! who knows I might have a change of heart in the future
 

jls001

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I've had an epiphany right now - I am not putting myself through that cd ripping bondage all over again HELL NO!!! who knows I might have a change of heart in the future
You can't give up so easily:)

Read the spec sheet of the CDP. The types of CDs that it reads are usually mentioned. Some do not read anything burned on CD+R while it will happily read CD-R.

Burning copies of CDs I like to listen has a practical application for me - use it in the car while the original stays safely at home.

Fun project to beat the lockdown blues: you could compare a factory CD with your burned CD and check if there's degradation in the burned copy. MD5 checksum on the copy will prove that the copy is perfect, but is there a difference in the sonics?
 

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Fun project to beat the lockdown blues: you could compare a factory CD with your burned CD and check if there's degradation in the burned copy. MD5 checksum on the copy will prove that the copy is perfect, but is there a difference in the sonics?
I believe @anirban420 did a poll on this sometime last year with sample files from original and later copies , and most weren’t able to identify the original.
 
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