Are FS only for larger space & BS for smaller?

[madbullram]

Hi,

There are no absolutes in this hobby of ours.

I have "big" speakers(15 inch woofers+large format compression drivers/horns) and they work great in my 12X10 small room.

Its the implimentation that counts.

Regards
Rajiv

100% I concur to this statement. In generic sense BS is a better option if you are not into experimenting too much. I have loved Flanker's full blown setup with twin sub etc in a small 10X10 and the SQ was mind blowing.

But it takes a lot of experimentation to get it right.

 

[reignofchaos]

Totally agree! A well setup system will sound good in any room no matter how big the room or how big the speakers.

 

[doors666]

Totally agree! A well setup system will sound good in any room no matter how big the room or how big the speakers.

yeah sure... try running a B&W 800D in a 10x10 room and then tell me this.

 

[reignofchaos]

With the right equalization, nothing is impossible .

 

[biyer]

Totally agree! A well setup system will sound good in any room no matter how big the room or how big the speakers.

On a similar line of thought..
Lets ignore budget factor for some while.. and compare two top notch extremely well built FS (3 way) and BS(2 way) of the same series.
Lets assume
1. both have same sensitivity 89DB
2. Both have similar power handling range 20-100W

So in the above case.. for a 1khz signal both the speakers would produce the same spl.
So how would their sound quality differ given the fact that both would be using similar drivers may be even the same??

In the average scenario the FS and BS of same series of speakers generally have same or similar drivers.Only factor sound spec wise that changes is frequency response.

So I am confused if whether the general rule of FS for large rooms and BS for small room holds true.

 

[mpw]

I like Keith Correa's answer and my friend Magma's too. Both simple and precise.

I like to add to this connundrum by telling you a bit about LARGE BOOKSHELVES.. interesting.. because one can categorise them as semi FS.

The Usher V601 which Sonosphere has and the Paradigm Titan Monitors which i have ( on which there is a separate thread ) fall into this category. Both these weigh about 10 kg each and in my case i have invested in stands too.

I have a stereo amp which is connected to my AVR thru pre outs.

Look - my experience syas that the quality of the sound you listen to ( a well recorded CD, a poorly recorded CD, a poorly recorded on the road type mp3 also matters.. ). When i load a CD which is original and well recorded ( and somewhat pricier too ) the sound is enjoyable. The same CD with poor recording will sound - not satisfying.

The above is besides the choice of speakers.

My personal experience is that - depending on the type of music ( trance / rock / hindi old songs etc.. ) some sounds are better heard in a BS + sub woofer combo ( as compared to only BS ) - this i often use. I find that even on a Large BS - it is mighty difficult to judge weather the BS if performning in the low 20's or early 30's as some of the more educated members may claim. A good subwoofer is a good padding / support for low freq as heard thru BS.

I would recommend you to try a good quality BS ( maybe about 25k or so ) and look at beefing up the low end with a good subwoofer. Ofcourse, go for the BS first and if you still want more low end grunt - then look at a sub.

Let your ears and your music taste and your wallet be your guiding light...

Happy Hunting !

mpw

 

[Asit]

For about 40k you CANNOT beat the Epos M12i. It looks like a bold statement but interestingly it is just too good for the money. The M12i has replaced the M12.2 (which was an earlier version and was superb) and it sounds like a more matured speaker in terms of high frequency reproduction, silkier and natural.
And, to address your concern about FS vs BS, this Epos speaker can do bass much better than many floorstanders. So it will ideally suit almost any small to medium sized room.

I completely agree on the Epos M12i. I have heard both M12.2 and M12i and they both are excellent speakers at around 40K. I also agree with your view that the current M12i perhaps is wee bit better than the older M12.2, although when I expressed that view earlier in the forum, theVortex (M12.2 owner) did not completely agree.

Unfortunately the electronics they use is Creek which to my ears sounded way to soft and rolled off.

Which Creek did you hear? I found the Destiny to be a reasonably decent amp, but perhaps a bit overpriced (I did not hear it through a decent set of speakers though, and hence my impression on it may not be accurate enough).

Regards.

 

[avidyarthy]

II would recommend you to try a good quality BS ( maybe about 25k or so ) and look at beefing up the low end with a good subwoofer. Ofcourse, go for the BS first and if you still want more low end grunt - then look at a sub.
mpw

Absolute correct and VFM suggestion .....

 

[TaureanBull]

On a similar line of thought..
Lets ignore budget factor for some while.. and compare two top notch extremely well built FS (3 way) and BS(2 way) of the same series.
Lets assume
1. both have same sensitivity 89DB
2. Both have similar power handling range 20-100W

So in the above case.. for a 1khz signal both the speakers would produce the same spl.
So how would their sound quality differ given the fact that both would be using similar drivers may be even the same??

In the average scenario the FS and BS of same series of speakers generally have same or similar drivers.Only factor sound spec wise that changes is frequency response.

So I am confused if whether the general rule of FS for large rooms and BS for small room holds true.

I thank you a lot for putting it this way. This is exactly what i intended to discuss.

Thanks to everyone for valuable inputs.

 

[grunthos]

I think, for a first time buyer, it is also the visual appeal of two flashy floorstanders flanking the tv/av vs. comparatively demure bookshelves

 

[captrajesh]

On a similar line of thought..
Lets ignore budget factor for some while.. and compare two top notch extremely well built FS (3 way) and BS(2 way) of the same series.
Lets assume
1. both have same sensitivity 89DB
2. Both have similar power handling range 20-100W

So in the above case.. for a 1khz signal both the speakers would produce the same spl.
So how would their sound quality differ given the fact that both would be using similar drivers may be even the same??

In the average scenario the FS and BS of same series of speakers generally have same or similar drivers.Only factor sound spec wise that changes is frequency response.

So I am confused if whether the general rule of FS for large rooms and BS for small room holds true.

I thank you a lot for putting it this way. This is exactly what i intended to discuss.

Assuming that the drivers are same(assuming both are two way speakers) from the same company and same series (and hence timbrally similar) the larger volume FS would have better lower end extension which could change the sound signature significantly)

If the FS is three way, the additional mid driver would anyway change the sound signature completely.

 

[biyer]

Assuming that the drivers are same(assuming both are two way speakers) from the same company and same series (and hence timbrally similar) the larger volume FS would have better lower end extension which could change the sound signature significantly)

If the FS is three way, the additional mid driver would anyway change the sound signature completely.

@Captain Thanks for replying
Yes I agree it would alter the sound signature.But it also depends on the voicing of the drivers which I dont feel would change heavily.
The idea behind most loudspeaker design is to have as flat frequency response as possible be it a FS or BS.

Now assume a simple sine wave of 80hz(or 120hz) being played through both the speakers.Then both the speakers should produce same/similar spl..
So if the amount of bass produced is the same(spl).

Also a speakers timbre is not a factor considered for its placement as per room size.
The thumb rule has been FS for large rooms and BS for small rooms.
Trying to understand the basis for this.

 

[captrajesh]

I agree it would alter the sound signature.But it also depends on the voicing of the drivers which I dont feel would change heavily.
The idea behind most loudspeaker design is to have as flat frequency response as possible be it a FS or BS.
Now assume a simple sine wave of 80hz(or 120hz) being played through both the speakers.Then both the speakers should produce same/similar spl..
So if the amount of bass produced is the same(spl). .

IMO the bass response of the FS would be much better because of the larger internal volume. It cannot be same.

The thumb rule has been FS for large rooms and BS for small rooms.
Trying to understand the basis for this.

The fact is, the room size would play a major role in the bass response. If the room is smaller, the better bass response of the FS would get further amplified by the room, the smaller the room the higher would be the amplification (for a given placement, i.e. distance from the rear and side walls)

Thats why, a FS would suit a smaller room than a FS.

 

[doors666]

On a similar line of thought..
Lets ignore budget factor for some while.. and compare two top notch extremely well built FS (3 way) and BS(2 way) of the same series.
Lets assume
1. both have same sensitivity 89DB
2. Both have similar power handling range 20-100W

I dont think you can make either of the assumptions. FS will have higher sensitivity and power handling than a BS.

So in the above case.. for a 1khz signal both the speakers would produce the same spl.
So how would their sound quality differ given the fact that both would be using similar drivers may be even the same??

spl difference will be there but it does not matter. power diff does not matter. you wont ever be playing at max power anyway.
the only aspect that will differ is the lower end. you will have more bass in the lower end.

In the average scenario the FS and BS of same series of speakers generally have same or similar drivers.Only factor sound spec wise that changes is frequency response.

So I am confused if whether the general rule of FS for large rooms and BS for small room holds true.

Avoid a FS that has a dedicated bass driver. A bass driver will produce a lot of low end. In a small room, there is a lot of room gain at lower end (like a car) and it will sound boomy and you'll know that the spkrs need bigger room.

in a given budget of say 1L, I can get a B&W 6 series FS or a 7 series (now defunct i believe) BS or CM series BS. I will pick a 7 or CM series any day over a 6 series.

Keeping the room out of the equation, a higher series BS will always sound better than a lower series FS, no exceptions:lol: If you love a lot of bass (or have a large room), then you can go for a lower series FS, else go for a higher series BS.

If you go for a BS, and later move to a larger room, you always have an option of adding a sub. once you have a good sub, you can keep upgrading the spkrs every few years, and you keep getting the higher series BS. good recipe to enjoy good music in the long run for lesser money:lol:

Speakers are the most important piece of audio chain, go for the best you can get. good luck with your quest

 

[Manu]

On a similar line of thought..
Lets ignore budget factor for some while.. and compare two top notch extremely well built FS (3 way) and BS(2 way) of the same series.
Lets assume
1. both have same sensitivity 89DB
2. Both have similar power handling range 20-100W

So in the above case.. for a 1khz signal both the speakers would produce the same spl.
So how would their sound quality differ given the fact that both would be using similar drivers may be even the same??

In the average scenario the FS and BS of same series of speakers generally have same or similar drivers.Only factor sound spec wise that changes is frequency response.

So I am confused if whether the general rule of FS for large rooms and BS for small room holds true.

I got a home audition done for two speakers - the Mordaunt Short Mezzo 2 and Mezzo 6 sometime back.

I wanted an FS for my stereo setup - still am looking for the perfect system for me that has to be out there somewhere - and wanted to check out how much better the Mezzo 6 would be as compared to the Mezzo 2 in my room.

When I heard the two at my place (its a smallish room - about 11x14) the Mezzo 2 sounded WAYY better than the Mezzo 6. We first listened to the Mezzo 6 and were really not impressed - the sound stage was not really there, no clarity, something was just not right - and then switched to Mezzo 2 - and it was a revelation! All things were suddenly falling in place.

The only thing I can think of is, as others have put it, the BS speakers were just right for my room, while the FS would be better suited if I were to place them in a larger area. I do understand that the FS would maybe also have sounded better with some tinkering in room placement and treatment etc. But the BS were good to go without much fuss.

 

[TaureanBull]

Guys, I can tell you that my entire thought process has changed after the suggestions I have got. Got to start my research from scratch again.... but is n't it fun?

 

[Dr.Bass]

Which Creek did you hear? I found the Destiny to be a reasonably decent amp, but perhaps a bit overpriced (I did not hear it through a decent set of speakers though, and hence my impression on it may not be accurate enough).

Regards.

I dont remember the model numbers but both CDP and amp were Creek and priced around 40-45k. The overall sound lacked energy to significant degree to my ears. I dont know whether it was because of the CDP or the amp.

 

[ajay124]

I dont remember the model numbers but both CDP and amp were Creek and priced around 40-45k. The overall sound lacked energy to significant degree to my ears. I dont know whether it was because of the CDP or the amp.

I had auditioned Creek and Epos at Reference Point last year.Mr.Venky was good enough to hook up various options from both brands.I too felt that the Creek sound was not very engaging.The Epos would probably sound better with the Arcam FMJ amps.The Creek Destiny integrated amp 120WPC at 8 ohms and the matching CDP were roughly 110K each.I had gone to Reference Point to check out the Evolution 5350 integrated amp,which was also 120 WPC at 8 ohms and priced around 80K.It had just been launched in early 2010 but was not available for audition.The Creek amp and cdp in the 45K range were the Evolution 2 series.I felt these were better value for money than the Destiny series.
I believe that for small rooms,small speakers would be better,both for SQ and aesthetics.In the 50K-100K range BS like the Proac Tablette Reference,Vienna Acoustic Haydn,Totem Rainmaker,Dynaudio Focus 110 and small FS like Proac Studio 130,Vienna Acoustic Bach Grand and Totem Arro can be considered.
I don't have extensive auditioning experience with BS and FS in different sized rooms.I would be very interested in listening to BIG and powerful speakers,correctly positioned and sounding good, in a small room

 

[sidvee]

My opinion is that BS speakers will work in small rooms (upto 200 sq.ft) and may work in mid size rooms (upto 300 sq.ft) but anything bigger and they will struggle. OTOH FS speakers will almost never work in small rooms - even acoustically treated rooms with bass traps - the bass overhang will be significant, will work better in mid size rooms, though bass may still be unruly and will evidently work very well in larger spaces. I also believe that when a BS and FS of the same price range is considered the BS almost always will be more refined and resolving where-as the FS almost always will have better low frequency extension (eventually the room will decide whether the bass of either speaker sounds good or not). Finally the room is really the most important variable and treating the room acoustically,getting the dimensions right and placing the speakers and the listeners in the room correctly is going to contribute most significantly to listening pleasure.
Cheers
Sid

 

[Asit]

Sorry for the OT.

Dr. Bass,
As Ajay pointed out, you heard the Creek Evo amp+CDP. I heard them too, and do not at all agree with Ajay that the lower priced EVO was a better value for money. If I have to put my observations simply, I'd say - lack of refinement (lack of smoothness, lack of tonal balance). OTOH, the Destiny (which you have not heard, and which is their top integrated) was much more refined, tonally more balanced, clean and fast amp. Sorry Ajay, I could not agree with your views at all. But then everybody has their own yardstick of judgement. All opinions are valuable in some way. I never heard the Creek Classic which is placed between the EVO and the Destiny. BTW, I remember dinyaar too expressed (perhaps in my amp thread) that the Creek Destiny is a very reasonable amp.

Regards.