Astonishing bass correction with a DSpeaker antimode 2.0

[superczar]

Continuing on the theme of limiting corrections to 500 hz (or cutting at off at the room schroeder)
Here is what I ended up doing a few months ago.

Audyssey MultEQ Editor and Stereo Playback (Plus Anthem Room Correction)

I recently swapped out a Marantz 6010 with a Denon x3500. TL;DR - If you have any Denon/ Marantz receiver that you may have purchased 2016/17 onwards, rush to App Store/ Play store to get this App without thinking twice If you want the gory detaills , read on-> Now my biggest problem with...

www.hifivision.com

What I also did around then was to measure the post correction response independently - which I believe yould should also be able to do .

The curves here are full range but the final setup has the cutoff applied at 224hz.

If and when you get the time, it would be worthwhile to measure the bass response (via Audyssey in your case) with and without the new doohickey

Before Correction



Wishful thinking (projected post correction curve)


Actual independent measurement with Anthem

 

[square_wave]

Someone in the industry once told me this.

If you plan to do any sort of sound processing in 2 channel audio, go active with an outboard active crossover first. Let the midrange and high frequencies go untouched to the speakers. That is where your tone resides. And any issues in freq response is easily fixed in the mids and highs by traditional room treatments. Then do sound processing only to the bass frequencies that comes out of the active crossover. This way the life in music does not get sucked out and bass gets fixed as well.

 

[superczar]

Someone in the industry once told me this.

If you plan to do any sort of sound processing in 2 channel audio, go active with an outboard active crossover first. Let the midrange and high frequencies go untouched to the speakers. That is where your tone resides. And any issues in freq response is easily fixed in the mids and highs by traditional room treatments. Then do sound processing only to the bass frequencies that comes out of the active crossover. This way the life in music does not get sucked out and bass gets fixed as well.

I would respectfully disagree.
It's a lot easier/ cleaner and precise to work with the signal when it is in the digital domain.
Implementing precise Active crossovers is an extremely challenging task - Any well implemented additional processing at the digital domain won't suck any extra life forces from the audio especially when it was digital to begin with.

It's arguable that a true analog source like a Vinyl may see some loss of fidelity if sampled to digital, processed and reconverted but not otherwise..
On a lighter note , that would be a moot point anyway given extracting bass (as intended) from vinyl is notoriously difficult to begin with so there isn't anything left to to correct

 

[prem]

Superczar, you haven’t heard a good vinyl set up then. The bass you get from a good vinyl set up can put many digital set ups to shame. And I am saying this from experience. I used to have the top of the line Esoteric transport and dac, considered to be among the best in bass. At today’s prices it’s like a USD 35000 rig. But my EMT turntable is probably better than my Esoteric rig in bass reproduction. Also there’s a fullness in bass which most digital rigs struggle with.

 

[gobble]

Happy to hear about the OPs experiements and improved results. However for me - rather than plug in more hardware I would prefer taking a one time measurement (meaning repeated iterative test cycles in a day or two) generate 4-5 EQ profiles and upload them to a software in the source player for corrections - then switch between different EQ profiles to see which ones I like best. Extra hardware means more extra and expensive cables and the link chain from source to speaker is no longer simple. With a software approach one can continue to use ones existing investment in a favorite DAC without messing with the chain.

The challenge in the latter approach - is that this defeats the pure unprocessed bitperfect transfer from source player to USB DAC... need to figure out how to do this on a Linux/Android box.

Edit: Just found out Volumio has an EQ plugin so this looks easily feasible... The audiophile music player designed and fine-tuned for high quality music playback. Free and Open Source Forever . The trick is then to obtain the room corrections graph for before/after and set your EQ ...

PS: I dont want my post to sound diversionary - do continue with the original discussion - just posted my gut feel and opinion ...

 

[square_wave]

I would respectfully disagree.
It's a lot easier/ cleaner and precise to work with the signal when it is in the digital domain.
Implementing precise Active crossovers is an extremely challenging task - Any well implemented additional processing at the digital domain won't suck any extra life forces from the audio especially when it was digital to begin with.

It's arguable that a true analog source like a Vinyl may see some loss of fidelity if sampled to digital, processed and reconverted but not otherwise..
On a lighter note , that would be a moot point anyway given extracting bass (as intended) from vinyl is notoriously difficult to begin with so there isn't anything left to to correct

Whenever I have heard digitally corrected sound, I notice that something happens to the tone of the original recording. The singer sounds different although the frequency balance is much better.

 

[drkrack]

I would respectfully disagree.
It's a lot easier/ cleaner and precise to work with the signal when it is in the digital domain.
Implementing precise Active crossovers is an extremely challenging task - Any well implemented additional processing at the digital domain won't suck any extra life forces from the audio especially when it was digital to begin with.

It's arguable that a true analog source like a Vinyl may see some loss of fidelity if sampled to digital, processed and reconverted but not otherwise..
On a lighter note , that would be a moot point anyway given extracting bass (as intended) from vinyl is notoriously difficult to begin with so there isn't anything left to to correct

I would respectfully disagree.
It's a lot easier/ cleaner and precise to work with the signal when it is in the digital domain.
Implementing precise Active crossovers is an extremely challenging task - Any well implemented additional processing at the digital domain won't suck any extra life forces from the audio especially when it was digital to begin with.

It's arguable that a true analog source like a Vinyl may see some loss of fidelity if sampled to digital, processed and reconverted but not otherwise..
On a lighter note , that would be a moot point anyway given extracting bass (as intended) from vinyl is notoriously difficult to begin with so there isn't anything left to to correct

I agree with @prem here, the tonality of bass in analog domain is quite authoritative. Especially Indian bass instruments like Tabla & Mridangam sound ethereal on vinyl and tapes. They Sound like their British English translation in digital domain. It is not always about thump of bass, the subtle nuances are mostly lost in my experience. Acoustic Portrait digital setup in Hyderabad Whats hifi was very appealing in this aspect.

 

[keith_correa]

Whenever I have heard digitally corrected sound, I notice that something happens to the tone of the original recording. The singer sounds different although the frequency balance is much better.

Think about this: what is ones frame of reference for determining the original tone?
Person A might have a digitally corrected sound as his/her frame of reference, and, a non digitally corrected sound will sound different to him/her.
Person B (like you and many others) might have a non digitally corrected sound as his/her frame of reference, and, a digitally corrected sound will sound different to you/others.
Both are right from their individual perspective.
And both could be entirely wrong from the actual original tonality perspective.

 

[superczar]

Superczar, you haven’t heard a good vinyl set up then. The bass you get from a good vinyl set up can put many digital set ups to shame. And I am saying this from experience. I used to have the top of the line Esoteric transport and dac, considered to be among the best in bass. At today’s prices it’s like a USD 35000 rig. But my EMT turntable is probably better than my Esoteric rig in bass reproduction. Also there’s a fullness in bass which most digital rigs struggle with.

Sir, I never said it’s impossible but that it’s notoriously difficult.
Not only do you need to have a record that is in pristine condition but also a rig that is either stratospherically expensive or requires significant amount of time & devotion to achieve - as rightly observed by you as well.

I have had the pleasure of experiencing some fantastic setups - the best of them (rather surprisingly) in a quaint but forlorn corner of the Portobello road market belonging to a used vinyl seller.
By his own admission, he had spent more on maintaining his gear than most people would on their entire (new) setup.

As nice as that setup was (and the song in question was Portobello Belle by Dire straits so automatic extra points for ambience to the viny seller’s rig )
However (and this part is highly subjective), I still feel that the experience of the same song on my setup, played back digitally is no slouch either but with the massively added advantage of offering me a far bigger library than that entire market can ever have.

Anyway, we digressed - the point I was trying to make is that good analog sources and playback mechanisms worthy of said sources are a rare combination representing a very small percentage of even the hobbyist market.
Given that everything else is in the digital realm to begin with, any corrections / changes are best achieved prior to analog conversion and amplification rather than after.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Correct me if I am wrong. i don’t understand the technicalities involved, but it feels common sensical to me that any signal processing will modify the sound signature.. because all you can do is amplify certain frequencies with respect to some others. While the resultant sound may be to one’s liking, or even compensate for a given room, it still is tampering with the music. I can see why some feel the musicality and/or tonality could get impacted... though the sound might feel clearer. I have felt the same with interconnects and power cables too, especially the specialised/branded ones. Even with isolators to an extent. i dont know if active crossovers modify the signal ... but every crossover and splitting across drivers naturally affects the sound too.

But any/all of these may be deemed necessary by some, especially when their room/installation poses significant challenges. It might be worthwhile to ensure minimum impact on the tone and musicality while getting clarity in the bass and details in the highs. What one doesn’t want to end up with is a clear sounding system which doesn’t engage.

 

[superczar]

Correct me if I am wrong. i don’t understand the technicalities involved, but it feels common sensical to me that any signal processing will modify the sound signature.. because all you can do is amplify certain frequencies with respect to some others. While the resultant sound may be to one’s liking, or even compensate for a given room, it still is tampering with the music. I can see why some feel the musicality and/or tonality could get impacted... though the sound might feel clearer. I have felt the same with interconnects and power cables too, especially the specialised/branded ones. Even with isolators to an extent. i dont know if active crossovers modify the signal ... but every crossover and splitting across drivers naturally affects the sound too.

But any/all of these may be deemed necessary by some, especially when their room/installation poses significant challenges. It might be worthwhile to ensure minimum impact on the tone and musicality while getting clarity in the bass and details in the highs. What one doesn’t want to end up with is a clear sounding system which doesn’t engage.

Technically, the whole process of audio playback on nearly every system today is based on signal manipulation (unless you use a completely manual (I guess motor driven is fine though) vinyl playback with non electrical horn amplification.)

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Technically, the whole process of audio playback on nearly every system today is based on signal manipulation (unless you use a completely manual (I guess motor driven is fine though) vinyl playback with non electrical horn amplification.)

Right. Therefore the simplest system perhaps is the truest too. I can see why many old hobbyists eventually simplify their rig down to bare minimum.

 

[superczar]

Right. Therefore the simplest system perhaps is the truest too. I can see why many old hobbyists eventually simplify their rig down to bare minimum.

That would be incorrect.
Let's for a second forget whether the source is analog or digital. But given that one must rely on electrical amplification for playback and electromagnetic speakers for playback, you will run into an issue.

Scenario A - You take the signal of a recording at I dunno say a classical performance at the Mumbai opera house
but the amplifier is not capable of amplifying it linearly at all frequencies so the playback is not as originally intended
so you move to :

Scenario B: You get a near perfect flat amplifier but now your room reverbs yield a frequency response different from the original venue so you replicate the acoustics of Opera house but the playback is not yet as originally intended because your speakers respond differently at different frequencies i.e. they aren't flat

So you move to

Scenario C: Replicate the acoustics, get a perfect amplifier and a perfect speaker - but since scenario C is not at all feasible hence the need for additional correction prior to amplification
which if done correctly should yield you a response closer to the original than one without

 

[Deleted member 15865]

That would be incorrect.
Let's for a second forget whether the source is analog or digital. But given that one must rely on electrical amplification for playback and electromagnetic speakers for playback, you will run into an issue.

Scenario A - You take the signal of a recording at I dunno say a classical performance at the Mumbai opera house
but the amplifier is not capable of amplifying it linearly at all frequencies so the playback is not as originally intended
so you move to :

Scenario B: You get a near perfect flat amplifier but now your room reverbs yield a frequency response different from the original venue so you replicate the acoustics of Opera house but the playback is not yet as originally intended because your speakers respond differently at different frequencies i.e. they aren't flat

So you move to

Scenario C: Replicate the acoustics, get a perfect amplifier and a perfect speaker - but since scenario C is not at all feasible hence the need for additional correction prior to amplification
which if done correctly should yield you a response closer to the original than one without

Yes. Which is why I wrote this:
But any/all of these may be deemed necessary by some, especially when their room/installation poses significant challenges. It might be worthwhile to ensure minimum impact on the tone and musicality while getting clarity in the bass and details in the highs. What one doesn’t want to end up with is a clear sounding system which doesn’t engage.

 

[Kannan]

There are two schools of thought here. One that goes for total acoustic room correction without the use of any DRC programs and the other that favours DRC or a combination of both.

That said, most recordings that are almost 100% digital today involves substantial amount of mixing and play with frequencies and amplitudes.
That said, the goal of an ideal music system is to reproduce close to 100% what has been churned out by the music director.

So let us presume that we have built that magic system with the best of source, DAC and the rest of the chain, but what is not in our control is the room response that is added to the sound waves generated by the speakers before reaching our ears.

Technically speaking, when we take the DRC route, we are actually manipulating the near perfect sound signature generated by the music system to compensate for the deficiencies of the room.

Instead the better route would be to detoxify the room to the extent possible, so that the near perfect sound signature reaches your ear before being manipulated before the final stage of amplification.

That said, some nodes can be notorious and will need DRC enforcement. Further practically speaking, it might be impossible to employ acoustic room corrections due to some limitations (like rented premises, living area etc), where DRC can be a great boon.

 

[prateekatasniya]

Correct me if I am wrong. i don’t understand the technicalities involved, but it feels common sensical to me that any signal processing will modify the sound signature.. because all you can do is amplify certain frequencies with respect to some others. While the resultant sound may be to one’s liking, or even compensate for a given room, it still is tampering with the music. I can see why some feel the musicality and/or tonality could get impacted... though the sound might feel clearer. I have felt the same with interconnects and power cables too, especially the specialised/branded ones. Even with isolators to an extent. i dont know if active crossovers modify the signal ... but every crossover and splitting across drivers naturally affects the sound too.

But any/all of these may be deemed necessary by some, especially when their room/installation poses significant challenges. It might be worthwhile to ensure minimum impact on the tone and musicality while getting clarity in the bass and details in the highs. What one doesn’t want to end up with is a clear sounding system which doesn’t engage.

Look at the bass peak.. without EQ every other frequency will be masked.. for the engagement you are talking about the bass has to be EQed or super huge bass traps has to be used as the frequency is too low.

 

[keith_correa]

Without any sort of compensation, any livable room WILL muck up the sound.
And, the room which will not muck up uncompensated sound will be unlivable (sic).
We have to choose our poison.

 

[raghupb]

Without any sort of compensation, any livable room WILL muck up the sound.
And, the room which will not muck up uncompensated sound will be unlivable (sic).
We have to choose our poison.

Or settle on an acceptable compromise given the limits of experiments each of us can or cannot do
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[superczar]

Yes. Which is why I wrote this:
But any/all of these may be deemed necessary by some, especially when their room/installation poses significant challenges. It might be worthwhile to ensure minimum impact on the tone and musicality while getting clarity in the bass and details in the highs. What one doesn’t want to end up with is a clear sounding system which doesn’t engage.

Does that not presume that any correction/equalization will do something unspeakable to the signal?
But If that’s true then the same unspeakable horrors would apply to the process of amplifying the signal too, no?

I guess what I am saying is that a vanilla amplified signal would have some coloration lended by the room - whether or not to remove this coloration (mildly or aggressively or anywhere in between) is a subjective and individual choice .

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Does that not presume that any correction/equalization will do something unspeakable to the signal?
But If that’s true then the same unspeakable horrors would apply to the process of amplifying the signal too, no?

I guess what I am saying is that a vanilla amplified signal would have some coloration lended by the room - whether or not to remove this coloration (mildly or aggressively or anywhere in between) is a subjective and individual choice .

You can introduce the correction/antidote upstream (close to the source) or downstream (closer to the listener). Since the problem is caused by the room, which is closest to the listener, isn’t it better to apply the antidote there?

For example, the water of Ganga gets polluted around Allahabad due to waste that gets added downstream. Would you rather remedy the waste there, or instead add disinfectants into the stream at Haridwar?