Audire System Review

[samson cj]

Nice review Venkat Sir!! your note on Coimbatore makes Coimbatorian's proud

 

[thevortex]

Thanks for the lovely review, Venkat. It was well written too, I should add. If I understand it right, these speakers do not work well with the normal Amplifiers or Receivers that we folks here use, is that correct?

 

[Nikhil]

Thanks for the lovely review, Venkat. It was well written too, I should add. If I understand it right, these speakers do not work well with the normal Amplifiers or Receivers that we folks here use, is that correct?

Regular amps most of us use are voltage drive design. Speakers we use are designed to accept voltage drive as well. Voltage drive designs fundamentally cause distortion to take place in the voice coil. A current amp offers the most precise way to send current through the voice coil without distortion as it ignores the resistance and reactance of the wires, voice coil etc. With proper design full range high efficiency drivers can be use this current very well to deliver great sound.

Audire speakers are based on full range single driver design. Audire speakers have no separate tweeters, mid range and bass drivers and the corresponding crossovers - just a single full range driver - which are best driven by current drive amplifiers. I may be wrong here but thats what I think they are doing.

 

[thevortex]

Regular amps most of us use are voltage drive design. Speakers we use are designed to accept voltage drive as well. Voltage drive designs fundamentally cause distortion to take place in the voice coil. A current amp offers the most precise way to send current through the voice coil without distortion as it ignores the resistance and reactance of the wires, voice coil etc. With proper design full range high efficiency drivers can be use this current very well to deliver great sound.

Audire speakers are based on full range single driver design. Audire speakers have no separate tweeters, mid range and bass drivers and the corresponding crossovers - just a single full range driver - which are best driven by current drive amplifiers. I may be wrong here but thats what I think they are doing.

Thanks Nikhil - I was thinking that might be the case

 

[Kamal]

A lovely review, Venkat-Thorough, indepth,involved & written with a passion for the subject.Am pretty keen to listen to an Audire after reading your write up,if they have a setup in Delhi.
Audire owe you a lot for a review like this!
Have sent you a PM.

 

[reignofchaos]

Not sure how I missed this thread. This is easily the best review of an audio setup on this site. Amazing job . Now I'm really curious to listen to Audire.

 

[murali]

Just a few points, if I may, please, for Audire speaker reviewer...
The sensitivity of the speaker is not mentioned and it is not clear whether the conventional dynamic driver used is horn-loaded or a compression driver is used with the horn. Generally compression drivers and horns are well known for their nonlinearity and distortion characteristics, and their major positive attribute is sensitivity. Even a multi-way horn speaker can be driven with a low power SET amplifier and some may find this combination desirable, some may not. When a speaker is reviewed, what do we look for, apart from enjoying the sound? Flat frequency response, timbre, imaging, soundstage, ???
Some more details will be most welcome and help understand these speakers better.
Thanks for the review.

> murali

 

[Asit]

Tremendous review. Is there a website for the Audire full range of products?


Note added later: Got it www.audire.in

 

[venkatcr]

Just a few points, if I may, please, for Audire speaker reviewer...

This is what Audire has to say about this point.

Cheers

AUDIRE QUOTE BEGIN
There are always two schools of thought low sensitivity multi drivers driven by high powered muscle amps, and the other is high sensitivity dynamic drivers in suitable horn loaded cabinets driven by low powered SET or CLASS A solid state amplifiers. Both will perform very well, but the choice will be of the listener, audio being a very personal medium. Generally, the compression drivers and horns are used only in PA (professional audio) and not in HIFI. In HIFI, usually, drivers with huge magnets and light weight paper cones are used and they have a very high sensitivity, generally more than 93dB/W. Our horn loaded speakers can be driven easily by a ten watts amplifier.

We are of the opinion that the most important factor for anyone to review a loudspeaker is his listening experience. This must be major content of any review. While such things as timbre, imaging and soundstage are a given in most high end audio equipment, and I think that these points have been well covered in the review, some things such as flat frequency response are measurements, which display the loudspeaker's performance. A speaker with flat frequency response need not be good sounding, and as a corollary, a speaker with a not so flat response curve need not sound bad. Also, freq. resp. is highly dependent on the characteristics of the room!

We would also at this juncture like to say, that while a review is a personal interpretation of the reviewer, any person can only make a decision regarding a speaker after listening to it. So while we agree in principle to everything that Mr. Murali says, we would suggest that he listen to the speakers!
AUDIRE QUOTE END

 

[murali]

Thanks to Sri venkatcr and Audire for the response.
Just one remark, if I may. When one buys a car, for example, one takes a test drive but is it the decision factor? One also looks at several technical and cosmetic attributes and performance specifications including measurements, I believe. Loudspeaker and component measurements are universally accepted norms and high-end magazines like Stereophile still use them as they tell you the basic characteristics of speakers and components. Your point that it is listening experience that only counts, well, I am afraid I cannot agree, as good sound and bad sound are purely subjective and matter of opinion, with no science involved.
I hope at some stage you will come out with some more information.
Good luck and happy listening.

> murali

 

[SuhasG]

I remember , a world famous and high end car maker (I believe it was Rolls-Royce) never used to publish their car's engine power (BHP) , when ever asked about it , their single word aswer was 'ENOUGH!'.

( It is only recently they started publishing engine power that is because of changes in the Consumer Laws in EU.)

 

[venkatcr]

Murali, I respect what you say. Unlike cars, in loudspeakers, in additional to all the technical information, there is large amount of subjectivity in terms of the listener's ears.

I have discussed your comments with Sharath and Sandeep. But I don't want this thread to go down to being a discussion on ideologies.

All I can say at this juncture is that both of them welcome you to visit them in Coimbatore, listen to the speakers, and that they will be happy to answer any questions you have.

Cheers

 

[SKR]

I fully agree with Venkat and Audire team that ultimate test of a speaker is listening and satisfying your ears.
But I also agree with Murali that specifications are very important. Specifications may not give you feel of the ultimate sound quality but never the less these are needed for system matching, for deciding amplifier u want to buy or match, low frequency extension, bi-amping or bi-wiring,sensivity, impedance weight, height,type of drivers, room size etc. etc.
We all know how difficult it is to get audition of high end gears specially expensive ones which are normally imported against confirmed orders. Only a few popular brands(few models only ) can be auditioned. So for these reasons specifications and reviews are very important in high end audio.

If u are staying in major cities may be u can listen to a few brands. But otherwise in most cases one makes a buying decision based on reviews,friends recommendation or specification and brand name.

Also I do not agree with Kamalji that Audire owe Venkat a lot for this review. I think Venkat wrote what he heard and liked about the speakers. Auric would owe only if review was fabricated. Venkat enjoyed his visit and review of Auric speakers as much as Auric people enjoyed welcoming him and giving him chance to enjoy listening to these very good Indian speakers.
But if venkat was a professional reviewer then may be Auric would be thankful for time and energy put into reviewing their speakers and amps. (whether positive or negative review )

 

[SKR]

BTW I forgot to compliment Venkat for a very good review of Auric speakers and for introducing Auric team to Hifi vision members. it is encouraging to read about quality hi-end products made in India

 

[murali]

Consequent to some interesting observations and comments from Sri SKR, let me close my remarks on speaker measurements with the following example (taken from published studies), provided we all agree that accurate speakers should have flat frequency response, should be time and phase coherent, and should not add artificial reflections and colorations to the signal:
A frequency response of the venerable B&W 801 Matrix speakers shows reasonably accurate frequency response within approximately 5 dB window with some minor swings. Such swings show that outputs from the individual drivers will not blend together as smoothly as it could. An impulse response graph shows that the speakers smear the signal over an extended period of time. A step response graph indicates that the speaker is not time and phase correct. Similar observations can be made from cumulative spectral decay graphs. I have seen similar studies on other speakers too and in fact some of the reputed planar speakers "create" sound rather than "recreate" what is in the input signal.
Agree, listening tastes differ. But science and measurements also matter, at least to me. It is not a question of ideology but a belief in the art and science of sound reproduction.
Thanks to all of you for the interesting sessions.

> murali

 

[venkatcr]

Murali had raised some points about speaker measurements and other matters. Over the last few weeks, I have worked with Audire to see how we can answers these points.

1. First here are the specs for the IO speakers:

Driver Units : 4" full range

Frequency Response: 77hz-23khz. Please verify with the frequency plot enclosed. Audire claims they generally provide conservative ratings for the same, actual bass response goes far lower than their quoted response.

Sensitivity: 93db/W/m

Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms

Power Handling: 24 W

2. I am enclosing a measurement of the IO done in an Anechoic chamber showing the frequency response curve.

3. Here is the answer to some of the points Murali raised.
These are the words of Sharath of Audire, and I have only edited it briefly for language.

We would like to make it abundantly clear that as a company we highly respect the point of views of all people who show an interest in us. Mr. Murali's comments on the importance of measurements and related sciences is well received and we appreciate him for his thoughts. In fact, as a company, we have been spearheading numerous conventional sources of audio reviews in India to adopt a more scientific approach than what currently exists, including the plotting of graphs for frequency response, phase coherence etc. We will be referring to this in context with our own speakers.

As we make single driver loudspeakers,I'll provide a brief of time alignment and phase coherence with respect to single drivers. We time-align our speakers by design by using extensive fast fourier and time domain theory calculations.

TIME AND PHASE COHERENCE
Time&Phase Coherence can be defined as the state in which two signals maintain a fixed phase relationship with each other or with a third signal that can serve as a reference for both.

The importance of phase response in the audio chain has been brought to greater focus recently by equipment claims of phase coherency, What such claims refer to is that the output signal has the same phase relationships as the input signal. It is not particularly obvious that two different frequency components of a signal can go into a device at precisely the same time and emerge at different times, but it is extremely common.

All audio components distort the phase of the signal to some degree. Even even air alters the time alignment of a signal. The biggest offenders are loudspeakers and their crossover networks. Phase shifts in the audio signal destroy the wave shape of the important attack characteristics of many instruments and hamper our ability to perceive the localization of the image,smearing the apparent source. They can change the steady state waveforms of vocal sounds so that the singer seems to be ten feet wide.

Historically, the phase integrity of the audio signal has been considered much less important than amplitude and harmonic/inter-modulation distortions. As more of those problems are solved and the quality of reproduction improves, phase distortion stands out in greater relief. The question of the audibility of these distortions has become the object of heated discussions regarding the perceivability of absolute phase. frequency dependent phase shifts, and the rate of phase shift. Nonetheless we know that the ear is sensitive to phase and uses phase cues to help determine directionality. We believe that proper attention to phase does produce better sound.

MULTI DRIVERS
The rationale is coherence. It is incredible that so many audiophiles accept the multi-way speaker paradigm without even a microsecond of critical thinking. With most multi-way speakers, I'm tempted to push the eject button on my listening seat. Think of what is involved here - chopping up the music into two or more ranges via a crossover network, feeding each portion to its respective driver - all with the fond hope that the sound radiating from several points in space will somehow integrate into a musical whole. Often this just doesn't happen.

Multiple drivers produce individual wave fronts which are mostly out-of-phase with each other, whose phase-coherent lobes require that the listener sit in a specified position with respect to the speaker placement ("head in a vice"). In addition, crossovers introduce phase anomalies which prevent true and accurate phase coherence in the lobes themselves, whether or not the listener is in the optimum listening position.

The fundamental problem of lack of phase coherence in multiple driver loudspeaker designs causes several types of insoluble problems, the most important of which is loss and corruption of information between the program material and the listener's ears. The types of information which are lost and corrupted includes spatialization and localization information, micro-dynamics, and acoustic harmonics

The crossover is used to split the frequencies which shifts phase and then designers try to compensate with extensive crossover design and tend to forget the basic insertion loss which cannot be avoided .

SINGLE DRIVERS
Single drivers have a single radiating and single voice coil for entire spectrum of sound. This makes them phase coherent by design .The ability of low-mass single drivers and low-mass voice coils to respond immediately to the faintest performance nuance in a phase-coherent manner enables the listener to hear a true and detailed presentation of every instrumental or vocal performance.

We are also sending, herewith, to our good friend Venkatcr, a frequency response graph for the IO horn system that he had listened to on his visit here. So there shouldnt be any problem in cross referring to that.

All tests, plots and measurements of this kind are done in an anechoic chamber. The relevance of such data in real life circumstances (unless you would be listening to your speakers in an anechoic chamber) would be highly questionable.

With the question of flat frequency response, it is wrong to suggest or derive that flat frequency response is a measure of speaker performance. In your example, Murali, you quoted a speaker (B&W 801) with a flat frequency response that is quite impressive. There is another company, by the name of YG Acoustics, the most advanced loudspeaker on the planet. If you happen to chance their website you will learn that YG claims to have the most flat of all freq. response graphs worldwide. While the manufacturer of these speakers is strictly scientific in his approach to speaker design, any review (by qualified reviewers or listeners) will guide you to the realization that his speakers are in no way musically spectacular. Even YG acoustics claim that their speakers image and are as coherent as single drivers, which is unknown in the multi-driver environment. This is something claimed by the most advanced multi-driver company on the planet.

 

[murali]

Thanks.
(1) 4" driver units: Are you saying this driver produces the entire frequency range mentioned? There is an old Chinese proverb which goes something like this: "A man chasing two rabbits simultaneously ends up with no meat for dinner."
(2) "We time-align our speakers by design by using extensive fast fourier and time domain theory calculations." I presume all decent speaker manufacturers do these. One can source excellent drivers from Denmark, use computer programs in design of crossovers etc but these do not guarantee the speaker performance. Different tools are required to perform different jobs. Whereas a high-end speaker sacrifices sensitivity and high output capability for extended bandwidth and improved sound quality, a sound reinforcement speaker like in a P/A system does the reverse.
(3) Single vs multiple drivers: The best example that comes to my mind is Planar speakers where problems associated with timing in multiple drive elements in a conventional electrodynamic speaker are claimed to be eliminated with a full range planar speaker with no crossover network and only one drive element. Planar speakers do have some attractive attributes as can be seen from cult following of Maggies and similar speakers. However, even a Magneplanar is a 2-way design as is Martin-Logan. The biggest problem with such speakers is the different tonal balance between the sound emitted from room boundaries vs direct sound. Even in true 1-way designs, unique problems exist like increase of intermodulation distortion when the same driver, however good it is, tries to reproduce both low and high frequencies, comb filtering etc etc. 'Thinking outside the box' is always a welcome idea provided basics which follow laws of science are not questioned. I have yet to come across that unique single driver which can encompass the entire hearing spectrum of frequencies.
(4) Frequency response: In the same posting, I had clearly mentioned that the B&W showed a decent frequency response but also its signal smearing issues and therefore, cannot be considered a great speaker. I do not wish to comment on your statement that YG Acoustics make the 'most advanced speakers on this planet'. If you wish to believe it, I have no problem.
Please note that the above are just some observations I have from the very little knowledge I possess on these subjects. I have absolutely no intention of belittling or criticising Audire products or the review. I am quite confident that you are technically quite capable and have a great product and wish you well. Maybe, if ever I happen to pass that way, I can come and listen with your permission.
Thank you.
> murali

 

[prem]

Hey guys, why are we getting into this? We all buy music systems to enjoy music. No one buys a speaker or an amp because of its measurements. You listen to a speaker and if you like the sound you buy it. Obviously things like reliability and after sales service are looked at.

I agree with Murali no single driver speaker can reproduce the entire frequency range. Similarly no multi driver speaker can have the coherency of a single driver. I guess the final choice boils down to tastes and the kind of music one listens to. If one is into heavy rock and electronica, a single driver speaker will sound horrible. The fact that dynamic speakers far outsell single driver and electrostatic speakers indicates people prefer the dynamic speaker sound. All said and done a well implemented dynamic driver speaker has the drive and energy which a single driver speaker cannot replicate. Similarly when it comes to mids, naturalness and reproducing the recording environment a single driver speaker sounds better to my ears.

I guess in the end to each his poison

 

[arj]

It does not make sense to compare technology and design as in the end it is the implementation which gives results..all this talk about Single Driver Vs Multi Driver Ve phase/time aligned...Upsampling Vs no sampling are only discussions and proof lies in the pudding.

In the end there are excellent example of each of the above and they all sound Good. Different But Good

But I do tend to agree with Muralis original argument on going purely by the ear. While, ideally it is the best concept, practically it has its own problems.

It is very difficult to pay for somethig so expensive and something which one is going to have around for a long time purely by the ear. At least I speak for myself when I say that I do not consider myself competent enough to judge all particular aspects of music all by myself and hence like to have some reviews/references as well as measurements which give me anough information to do a due diligence..
the choice may be by the heart but with enough head put in to ensure I do not lose out on an investment (For me personally, Resale value also plays a very important role !)

 

[murali]

Not completely off track, let me quote from a recent Stereophile edition about Ayre's latest reference preamplifier KX-R which is described by Wes Philips as the 8th wonder of the world! Something costing close to $20,000, it is beyond my dreams but still what is interesting is the approach of Ayre's Charles Hansen about some basic things, rather startling to read (why we never thought of these???), as described in the review:
Hansen calls the technology used in KX-R as Variable Gain Transconductance (VGT) to control the volume, setting new standards for signal/noise (S/N) ratio. To quote Hansen, "The reason nobody ever talks about this issue is that it is like the air-it is omnispresent, so nobody even thinks about it. Almost every preamplifier in the market uses an attenuator (ahead of the output stage) to reduce the gain. There are 2 problems with this. (1) once you get beyond 10k or 20k ohms (series resistance), you begin to affect frequency response along with the volume, and (2) the active circuitry outputs a constant noise voltage - increase the volume level and you increase the S/N ratio. The maximum S/N ratio is therefore at full output, which NOBODY listens at. With VGT, the S/N is constant regardless of volume setting."
Hansen again - "Pretty much 99.99% of all front panel displays are multiplexed which means that not all of the dots are on all the time - they flash much like the pixels on the old CRT monitor - and turning these dots on and off rapidly creates electrical noise that radiates into the rest of the circuitry, degrading the sound. We found a special display that is not multiplexed - the segments are always on and no electrical noise is generated - which results in a ten-fold increase in price".
We can observe two interesting things from the above. The 'thinking outside the box' approach and the quest for perfection. It doesn't matter how expensive the preamp becomes and very few buy it. May be in the long run someone comes out with cheaper solutions.
> murali