Budding audiophiles, FYI, please (Back to basics)...

murali

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I often see postings here about which equipment to buy, how to improve, etc from those interested to listen to good music in a decent hifi system. The following article in the latest Hifi+ magazine looks fascinating from an end-user like many of us and I am giving a summary of the same below.

My system comprising of Cyrus CD8x, Sugden A21SE and Sonus Faber Signum on Ironwood stands has grown without any systematic process applied to mains or interconnects with Target stand had remained uninvestigated in service for 20 years. I recently deconstructed my system to experiment, the first step in the process of upgrading. All listening was done with the volume control at 9 oclock position. The room is about 4.5 X 5.5m with a pitched roof.

Stripped back to basics, Giveaway mains and interconnect cables, generic speaker cables, the amp on a MDF sheet on the floor, CD player stacked on amp, speakers bookshelfed without toe-in. What does it sound like? 2-dimensional sound without any sense of depth, pitched well forward to the room, abrasively sibiliant with strident vocals. The bass is significantly enhanced from near the wall position and very boomy.
Now I placed the amp and CDP side by side on glass shelf and joined with a VdH D102 Hybrid with all else unchanged. Immediately there is space and separation between instruments and greater integration of the musical whole. The soundstage has some depth but still with a very forward presentation. Bass and HF are better controlled but still with boom and brightness. Presentation is lively and dynamic but quickly becomes wearing.
Next comes some chunky mains cables but this time segregating from interconnects. All else remains unchanged. Now better control of dynamics and improved separation with depth. Subtle musical details are coming out of the background but the better bass depth becomes overpowering the music. Now a nOrdost Vishnu power cable on the amp provided significant changes to the overall quality that even my wife could clearly hear the improvement!
Now I use some draught pieces for isolation of components and the bass becomes taughter and drier with room resonance less apparent until the volume increases to the point where the isolation is overwhelmed. Now, with foam blocks under CDP, coherence and balanced are improved markedly. But there is still a lot of bass. Now a set of Nordost Pulsar Points under the CDP let the amp maintain control as before but released so much extra energy that I began to fear for the cones. Now I reduce the volume and the bass heavy balance tilts and more musical integration. There is still some thickening in mid-range but with judicious use of volume control, I now can listen comfortably for extended periods.
Now I return the speakers to their stands and toed them in place. Without back wall reinforcing, bass was tamed but now the HF brightness increases. The soundstage has opened up and sits clearly between speakers having lost the boominess.
Now I replace the MDF shelves with Perspex for the amp and CDP and the effectiveness is startling. Dynamics improves and space and air are further enhanced.
Now the interconnects change. The sense of space and air between each instrument, sensitivity of vocal emotions is released. Natural dynamics and harmonic envelope. More width and depth in soundstage but does not cross the speaker boundaries. Change speaker cables now. Cleaner, crisper and more air. A wider soundstage and boxiness gone.
While this exercise is entirely a subjective process, I recognise improvements, incremental and identifiable.

The moral of the story (or experience) is that with a decent collection of moderately priced well performing equipment, one can no doubt build a great sounding system as long as one goes systematically and spends money for incremental improvements rather than always succumbing to the urge of upgrading components.
And from my personal side, please note that enjoying good 2-channel music requires a "pure" souce like CD player, amp and speakers. If one believes that a multifunction machine like DVD player or home theater receiver can do the same job, sorry, you are mistaken. I may be conservative but that is my experience.

Good luck and spend your money carefully.

murali
 
Was this HiFi+ article written tongue in cheek?

If it wasn't, Wow! I wish my AudioPhool vocabulary was even a quarter of this and my "lead" ears could hear all of this: :rolleyes:

2-dimensional sound
sense of depth
pitched well forward to the room
abrasively sibiliant
strident vocals
space and separation
boom and brightness
lively and dynamic
becomes wearing
better control of dynamics and improved separation with depth
musical details are coming out of the background but the better bass depth becomes overpowering the music
bass becomes taughter and drier with room resonance less apparent
coherence and balanced are improved markedly
amp maintain control as before but released so much extra energy
musical integration
thickening in mid-range
bass was tamed but now the HF brightness increases
soundstage has opened up
Dynamics improves and space and air are further enhanced
The sense of space and air between each instrument, sensitivity of vocal emotions is released
Natural dynamics and harmonic envelope
More width and depth in soundstage but does not cross the speaker boundaries
 
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Cyrus , Sudgen ,sonus fabar will show improvement

How about Vinatage sansui ,pioner D and Lithos speakers..
I THINK THIS ARTICLE IS NOT FOR ME !
 
Was this HiFi+ article tongue in cheek?

If it wasn't, Wow! I wish my AudioPhool vocabulary was even a quarter of this and my "lead" ears could hear all of this: :rolleyes:


I agree completely....the vocabulary used is amazing as I had to google a lot of words for their meaning....How I wish I could hear like that and then write like that.....
 
Good thread . Let me share my set of inputs .
From a very young age I was interested in AUdio and Electronics . I used to save money and try out amplifier kits , pre amp kits etc . I have had a fair share of amplifier projects and when i was young the STK based power amp used to be the best . Then I slowly got into the Elektor amps and finding parts for my Elektor amps used to be a nightmare , but I used to be rewarded by much better quality of music reproduction .
My college life got over and due to my interest in Audio and electronics I started servicing professional AMPS and reverse engineering them . many theatres use my reverse engineered QSC amps . I always wanted to have high powered amplifiers , subwoofers , horn tweeters for my setup . The Beymas , DAS , Eminence setups seemed magical .

One of my business acquaitence invited me over to his house to give me a demo of an Audiolab amplifier , Mission floorstanders and a Quad cd player . The "friend " was talking in lakhs for a 60W amplifier setup , when I had access to 700w amplifiers for almost 30 K . He gave me a demo , but it was instrumental music and they guy was talking about subtle sounds . For the first time I felt that there was a stage in front of me , the sounds coming out of the speakers was very impressive .

Now , I had a real phase shift and I was looking for a different set of parameters . I wanted music and not volume . I started collecting , auditioning audio equipment and being in chennai , it was like the Mecca of electronics . I made quite a few friends in the used sector and I was always interested in the English AMPS and believe me these amps used to be cheap in those days as people flocking the used market wanted a pioneer or a sony . It used to be quote an advantage for me as Mission , Audiolab , Rogers , NAD , NAim , etc were offered cheap and I started collecting , listening , reverse engineer some .

Then the Boom happened . Due to liberalisation DTS , Home theatre concepts , Exclusive audio stores came by and there was a definite shift from the traditional pionner , sony seeking customer to more refined Audio brands .

What I have experienced is as follows
1.First , analyse your taste of music . just because some well known "audiophile" on the internet likes a particular type of music ,it just does not mean you will like it . Know whether you like pop , rock , instrumental , classical , film music . Then plan for a system accordingly . Do not force yourself to listen or tune yourself to music or equipment that others have a high regard for . I know a lot of people who are happy with ipods , walkmans , mobile phone music .

2. Source should be a very good one . Allocate at least 40 % of your budget for a good quality source . Do the best possible research on this . Without a good source even a 1 lakh amp and speaker will be lousy


3. Always remember that an amplifier or a speaker when new needs atleast a month or 2 to break even and reach the best possible operation . So patience is a virtue here .

4. Do not go by pricing or brand names . A good example would be the PULZ amps . They had real good construction used sanken outputs , had balanced inputs and most of all had dual mono .

5.A very important topic would be that of cables . I have come across people buying exotic speaker cables and claiming that their high priced cables offered better music reproduction . I seriously do not know how it would affect as the inside the amplifier the wires used are just normal wires . Good quality cables are a must , but good quality finolex cables are fine as well . For the source interconnects I would recommend a set of real good cables but again stop thinking that a 500 dollar is the best .

Another important thing is some people have a constant feeling that they are not getting the best out of their system and they have to upgrade , but if you can make your choice at the beginning well enough , you cant possibly go wrong . A higher priced system may not necessarily IMPRESS YOU .
 
From a very young age I was interested in AUdio and Electronics . I used to save money and try out amplifier kits , pre amp kits etc . I have had a fair share of amplifier projects and when i was young the STK based power amp used to be the best . Then I slowly got into the Elektor amps and finding parts for my Elektor amps used to be a nightmare , but I used to be rewarded by much better quality of music reproduction .

Great to know... what timeline?
Between 1985~89, I tried DIY of various amps etc in college... The car stereo mechanism, philips universal pre-amp, STK 2020 based amp, philips speakers, speaker boxes from local market or maggi noodle cartons, U shaped anodised aluminium chasis... nostalgic!
 
Great to know... what timeline?
Between 1985~89, I tried DIY of various amps etc in college... The car stereo mechanism, philips universal pre-amp, STK 2020 based amp, philips speakers, speaker boxes from local market or maggi noodle cartons, U shaped anodised aluminium chasis... nostalgic!

During the 85-89 period I was doing LA440, 4445 , UPc series , 810 , stk 2020 etc . but these projects were painfully slow and took up a lot of time . It was in college that I actually got around to completing projects on time , but my school days were fun . Armed with even Rs.2 I used to go to ritchie street for parts . kind of nostalgic and somehow i feel I was focussed on electronics and audio . Now , what i missed was girlfriends , sports , etc .
 
BTW I am a noob,so is this STK is some family of Chips?Or a perticular chips?

In traditional secondhand sellers STK based amps are looked down ( compared to transisterised amps) so are these amps bad sounding?
 
Good thread . Let me share my set of inputs .
... .

Excellent post and focus on the absolute basics. I think the timing was good as a lot of people are looking for that "next" sound that should be better than their current setup.

A note on room treatments would have rounded it out very well. But again well done!
 
So is this STK is some family of Chips?Or a perticular chips?

In traditional secondhand sellers STK based amps are looked down ( compared to transisterised amps) so are these amps bad sounding?

STK's were thick film amplifier Integrated Circuit(chips) released by Sanyo. The circuits using STK audio chips were very popular even on branded systems, but those were the times good transistorized designs also existed in parallel.

It was back in the 80's but I still vividly remember my first transistorized amplifier based on 2N3055 and STK-459 was my first integrated stereo amp. (Obviously discarding prior contraptions based on TDA810, TA1010/2020, LA4440). I liked them both. STK's for their simplicity in assembly and the transistors for their superior quality sound.

The DIY bug bit me real hard while I was studying in 7th standard after visit to an industrial fare and by 10th standard I was a popular seller of custom amplifier designs in my town and was earning decent dough. While in college this hobby even financed my 2-Stroke madness. (A slew of RX100's, RD350's, Shogun)...

IIRC one of Elektor Hexfet based designs was my last audio amplifier build. It still does duty driving a Vifa and scan-speak combo in a bi-amp setup. I guess I left Audio DIY scene somewhere in the 90's and switched to microprocessors, microcontrollers and power electronics...During my engineering times, I was known as the Digital Vampire and hence my forum handle...

Ahh... those were the times...Nice thread!!!

Fast forward 15 years, I must confess that I don't get to do much of DIY anymore but my job revolves around designing hardware for a few telecom giants. I'm happy to be one of those guys whose primary job happens to be their hobby...
 
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thanks ,so all STK chips were from sanyo?also are these STK still available today?was the sound quality inferior?
 
thanks ,so all STK chips were from sanyo?also are these STK still available today?was the sound quality inferior?

IIRC, All STK chips were from Sanyo (not 100% sure). They were a family of chips not just limited to Audio amplifier IC's. I'm sure they must still be available.

Sound quality was fairly good for those times but I guess transistor based designs ruled the roost.
 
It was the contrary . In those days STK meant the top most performance and sound quality . The transistor lacked the "base" that the stk used to dish out . Infact , inthose days if you had an STK based amp , you were looked upon in awe .

The other IC based circuits were generally from Delhi and quite cheap . For about 300 Rs you could build a whole amplifier box with about 10+10w ( but were marketed as 40+40W .

The transistor based designs were avoided because most of the circuits were based on 2n3055 and they did sound horrible ,more like PA amps infact .

Even today some STK IC are really good and comparable to the LM3886 stuff in terms of sound quality .

For an active sub nothing beats a STK in terms of power output and cost today with over 120 w of power .
 
"that enjoying good 2-channel music requires a "pure" source like CD player, amp and speakers. If one believes that a multifunction machine like DVD player or home theater receiver can do the same job, sorry, you are mistaken."

The most common,dreadful and expensive mistake that budding audiophiles make,is trying to combine music and movies.IMO,buying an AVR is the first disastrous step into getting trapped into buying rotten speakers,players,subs and cables
I have gradually learned the simple things required for a good musical experience.
1.Good quality cd's.+ A spirit of adventure and risk taking, in constantly trying out, fresh and more 'difficult sounding' music.Budget - Unlimited
2.CDP.Budget-20%
3.Amp (preferably pre-power,for which the budget may need to be s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d).Budget-35%
4.Speakers (which are right for the size of the room).Budget-35%
5.Speaker cables (ideally less than 9 feet for most rooms).Budget-5%
6.IC's.Budget-5%
7.Finding the right spot in the room for the gear and for your listening position.
Step 1 and 2 can go the Vinyl way if one so desires.

Simple and obvious steps,yet so many folks trying to put their first set up together get lost in a frenzy of confusion.Bringing AVR's,Dvd players,PC's and probably Dac's into the mix merely increases the 'noise' levels, 'furniture' (my terminology for 5.1 and 7.1) and ugly looking cables!
Unless someone is a 'special effects' freak,good 2 channel reproduction is fine for movies too.'Special effects' anyway is not cinema.Merely children playing childish games.Cinema is about imagination.The script writer,director and actor's imagination.And more important our imagination!
"Imagination is refined and enhanced by better cinema,books and music and retarded by 'sensational' blockbusters/bestsellers/chart toppers/gimmicks/ special effects."-Quote by me :)
 
STK's were thick film amplifier Integrated Circuit(chips) released by Sanyo. The circuits using STK audio chips were very popular even on branded systems, but those were the times good transistorized designs also existed in parallel.

It was back in the 80's but I still vividly remember my first transistorized amplifier based on 2N3055 and STK-459 was my first integrated stereo amp. (Obviously discarding prior contraptions based on TDA810, TA1010/2020, LA4440). I liked them both. STK's for their simplicity in assembly and the transistors for their superior quality sound.

The DIY bug bit me real hard while I was studying in 7th standard after visit to an industrial fare and by 10th standard I was a popular seller of custom amplifier designs in my town and was earning decent dough. While in college this hobby even financed my 2-Stroke madness. (A slew of RX100's, RD350's, Shogun)...

IIRC one of Elektor Hexfet based designs was my last audio amplifier build. It still does duty driving a Vifa and scan-speak combo in a bi-amp setup. I guess I left Audio DIY scene somewhere in the 90's and switched to microprocessors, microcontrollers and power electronics...During my engineering times, I was known as the Digital Vampire and hence my forum handle...

Ahh... those were the times...Nice thread!!!

Fast forward 15 years, I must confess that I don't get to do much of DIY anymore but my job revolves around designing hardware for a few telecom giants. I'm happy to be one of those guys whose primary job happens to be their hobby...
Digitalv, thanks for the gyaan and flashback.
afaik, stk based chips are still available in the market. 5 years back when I was trying to build a 6 channel amp, the board I used had stk ICs, 40w per channel. And in the local diy market, these were supposed to be better for good 'clarity'!
Will try to dig up the photo of the amps internals and salvage the details.
 
I'd like to share one of the posts I read in another forum:

One word of caution though, when people fork out huge money like this for audio equipment, the subconsciously convince themselves that more money will bring more sound, or more impressive sound. Weeeellll....not really. What you get in better equipment is actually less, not more; less distortion, less imbalance, less awareness of the speaker. With an ideal speaker, you should not be aware of the speaker at all, it should completely disappear, leaving nothing but the original performance behind.

Oddly, this can be very off-putting to some people. They spend what they perceive as a fortune to hear their expensive speakers. They want more bass, usually, but that 'more' is really weight in the form of droning distortion, when what they should want is clarity. They should want to hear the instrument and not the speaker.


This is from here
 
For excellent sound that won't break the bank, the 5 Star Award Winning Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 Bookshelf Speakers is the one to consider!
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