Burn-in with measurements as proof

No, a pair that generally sounds good.

Ask Hari Iyer about how the DIY speaker wiring he now uses "measures" and sounds - to all others he has tried !
Mr. Hari Iyer(if on the forum),
Would love to hear your take on the said cables.

I think that's where the fundamental fallacy lies in most people understanding audio, at least to my mind. People generally focus on one particular set of measurement and view them on a standalone basis to arrive at any particular set of conclusions.

However, as you put it, it is a combination of factors which our senses perceive, our brains decipher to understand whether we (or others) find it generally pleasing and we process it in real-time to understand make the necessary adjustments.

Badly measuring audio can also sound good, depending on the right combination of factors. It is only a matter of understanding how a certain combination of factors work to appeal or detract from our listening preferences as opposed to each factor on a standalone basis. I believe this is an area where our understanding is yet to mature,

To elucidate, we have a certain chilli native to my hometown and vicinity which has gained a considerable amount of notoriety in the internet age viz. the venerable Ghost Pepper ("Bhut Jolokia"). Objectively, it is the spiciest naturally occurring pepper on the planet and I'd daresay nobody in their right mind has ever taken a liking to it when consumed on a standalone basis. However, when added to certain foods, even in copious and outright outrageous quantities and balanced out with other contrasting flavours such as sweet and sour(again, the sheer quantities of lime juice that go into these preparations would not be consumable on a standalone basis), the combination is downright delectable. Is it still fiery HOT? Yes! Is it extremely sour and/or sweet? Absolutely! And I daresay it'd still qualify as one of the most scintillating dishes you'd ever experienced and is certainly a delicacy for those who've tried it!

I can attribute much of Andrew Jones success to his understanding of what makes for a good listen. While he relies heavily on machine measurements, the final tuning is done by the most supreme instrument of them all, his ear.

I've heard speakers and amps lambasted by ASR measurements (the gold standard amongst so-called objectivists?) trample all over their approved darlings because a combination of these quirks simply sound appealing to my ears. The tough nut to crack are the reasons why any particular amalgam of these inherent deficiencies seem to appeal to a person's senses. Then again, its not just the person in question but also the circumstances under which he is listening that add to the experience, pleasant or otherwise.

To further elucidate on how our brains make adjustments depending on realtime inputs, I remember this showdown/?competition? between a certain bowler (Chris Barnes) and this bowling robot which was accurate to the T and yet, lost to the bowler! While the engineers had programmed every single parameter accurately and was much more capable at 'a consistent shot', they had not anticipated/understood/worked out fully how a combination of these factors would change as the game progresses, hence the result.

Insofar as measurements of cables and other audio equipment is concerned, I also scoff at the hubris of objectivists who believe that every single quantifiable variable has been identified/mapped out and at the same time, i do not discount the effects of placebo.

And while I can certainly wrap my head around the statement that "NO single event measuring equipment is capable...", to qualify it further as "nor wanted!!" suggests that certain phenomenon should remain beyond the ilk of human understanding. That i cannot get on board with.

On the contrary, I was rife with anticipation which is why I wanted to be certain that the headphones employed by me are approved by your good self. As such, i wanted to ensure that I employed the only variable that seems to matter in the present discussion viz. your preferences and understanding of audio. Otherwise, they'd run the risk of being dismissed as not "decent headphones", no matter the objective and subjective provenance, especially since that seems to be the dispensation of this discourse anyway. Hence, the immediate response.
Yes, its the combination of those measurements(good,bad,ugly) that make things sweet to a ear or not. And the tuners know that over years of practice.
But the question is do those measurements change before and after ? Especially for electronic components ?

And this thing about tuning by the ear, anyone would agree that hearing degrades over time and before you know it many are or will be straining to hear over 12-14khz. Now the most experienced of them tuners(50years+) could essentially be audibly challenged around or over the above frequencies. So what is their basis of tuning if not measurements ?

As a starting point, the OP may like to suggest parameters to measure before and after burn-in.
Yes, why dont we put down a few parameters ? Recommendations welcome….

The idea is not to pooh pooh the phenomenon of burn-in but to put some objectivity to it. And there is a gentleman who has some equipment to measure with.

For listening on my computer, to youtube videos, I discovered a modest KOSS Porta Pro Classic does a good enough job to suit my listening needs. It has an always-surprising-to-me performance level......... for a modest cost.

For really critical listening, I use lightly modded Professional ALTEC A7-8 movie theatre two-way horn speakers, and DIY Single Ended Directly Coupled tube amps and wiring I've built, with a mentor-friend's help.

Watch and listen to Maurizio play Beethoven's Emperor Concerto, as some people consider him to be the best Classical pianist living today. What a treat.

Imagine knowing ALL those notes to,play, and not even looking continuously at the keyboard - if need be. He plays with such clarity !!!!

Jeff
True
Maurizio Pollini is a class apart. One of the best. There are others not too far behind though.
There is a crop of ladies that are fantastic too. Helene Grimaud, Valentina Lisitsa, Yuja Wang etc. Alice Sara Ott for one plays Debussy’s Reverie like no other I have heard. But thats a conversation for another thread.
 
When you have grown men over to listen to music played on your system and they break down and cry that is a good enough measurement for me. And yes I have a siltech cable break in box and have put cables on it for a week that I have owned for twenty years and played thousands of hours on and they sound better after a week on the siltech. Easy to tell ams compare when you have two sets of interconnect s that you bought at the same.time and used for years that sound the same. Do one set.and.compare back and.forth it doesn't take.long to realize the other set needs a week.on the machine.
 
This should be best answered by an electrical engineer.
In my experience, not only new electronic gears, but also those kept unused for a length of time, brings changes in music presentation after it is kept running for a few hours.
From my very limited understanding, equipment like amps, preamps, DACs include various types of components like transformers, resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes etc. which bring changes in the flow of electrons in the closed circuit like an audio system. When the system is in off state, i.e if there is no flow of electrons, there will be build up of potential energy within the system across some components like resistors.
In my understanding, the power delivered through a circuit is not the result of electrons that is always existing in a circuit, but because of the electrons moving through the circuit when an external power is applied.
But, an audio chain is not only a closed circuit system but also a static one where a capacitor is in the chain. And secondly, audio circuits are a combination of a/c and dc currents which align differently when supply is both on or cut off.
Coming to capacitors, it is a like a tank that stores energy and dissipates on demand. In that sense, it can get fully discharged at one end and be devoid of electrons even when supply is open or closed. In that sense it is like a static circuit within a closed circuit.
So while something like wires and resistors will never run out of electrons, a capacitor can run out of electrons.

Due to this, a closed circuit when moved into off state, can have residue current, built-up potential energy, static and live states across capacitors and multiple alignment of electrons. We can possibly call these as ripplies that get stuck in the water due to sudden stoppage of flow.
This possibly is the reason we see some changes in music presentation when switching on our gears, either for the first time or after an appreciable gap.
A fresh sea of electrons from the power outlet that are fed into the componets, possibly clean up the ripples in the chain.
 
Last edited:
I love nibbling bhut jolokia on its own, raw. Just love the flavour and aroma. Discovered it during a trip to imphal, brought back some and now grow it in kerala.
I don't know whether that makes me a person of "unsound mind".
If you have Bhut Jolokia on its own i.e. as a snack without accompanying food (we also have it raw but not without a chaser of some sort, whether solid or liquid) then perhaps not of unsound mind, but an exception to the rule.

Manatees and platypuses do exist.
 
When you have grown men over to listen to music played on your system and they break down and cry that is a good enough measurement for me. And yes I have a siltech cable break in box and have put cables on it for a week that I have owned for twenty years and played thousands of hours on and they sound better after a week on the siltech. Easy to tell ams compare when you have two sets of interconnect s that you bought at the same.time and used for years that sound the same. Do one set.and.compare back and.forth it doesn't take.long to realize the other set needs a week.on the machine.
Again, if there is a machine for it then there ought to be a scientific base for it to be doing something and the result before the machine and after the machine can be measured. How else would you design a machine and then check whether its doing what its supposed to ? It cant be a fluke experiment that turned out right can it ?
 
This should be best answered by an electrical engineer.
In my experience, not only new electronic gears, but also those kept unused for a length of time, brings changes in music presentation after it is kept running for a few hours.
From my very limited understanding, equipment like amps, preamps, DACs include various types of components like transformers, resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes etc. which bring changes in the flow of electrons in the closed circuit like an audio system. When the system is in off state, i.e if there is no flow of electrons, there will be build up of potential energy within the system across some components like resistors.
In my understanding, the power delivered through a circuit is not the result of electrons that is always existing in a circuit, but because of the electrons moving through the circuit when an external power is applied.
But, an audio chain is not only a closed circuit system but also a static one where a capacitor is in the chain. And secondly, audio circuits are a combination of a/c and dc currents which align differently when supply is both on or cut off.
Coming to capacitors, it is a like a tank that stores energy and dissipates on demand. In that sense, it can get fully discharged at one end and be devoid of electrons even when supply is open or closed. In that sense it is like a static circuit within a closed circuit.
So while something like wires and resistors will never run out of electrons, a capacitor can run out of electrons.

Due to this, a closed circuit when moved into off state, can have residue current, built-up potential energy, static and live states across capacitors and multiple alignment of electrons. We can possibly call these as ripplies that get stuck in the water due to sudden stoppage of flow.
This possibly is the reason we see some changes in music presentation when switching on our gears, either for the first time or after an appreciable gap.
A fresh sea of electrons from the power outlet that are fed into the componets, possibly clean up the ripples in the chain.
When electrons flow through any material there is heating that can alter the resistance determined by Temperature coefficient of resistance. Conductor have positive coefficient and resistance increase and change value. Semiconductors drift from the cold state value to reduce the resistance due to negative coefficient. Dielectric have non linear characteristics and caps change value over increase in temperature.. when the devices are switched on the values change over time due to increase in temperature inside. So do these equipment operate at the design parameters?
 
When electrons flow through any material there is heating that can alter the resistance determined by Temperature coefficient of resistance. Conductor have positive coefficient and resistance increase and change value. Semiconductors drift from the cold state value to reduce the resistance due to negative coefficient. Dielectric have non linear characteristics and caps change value over increase in temperature.. when the devices are switched on the values change over time due to increase in temperature inside. So do these equipment operate at the design parameters?

I was under the understanding that most electronic equipment have an ideal operating temperature as per design and thats why they sound good after "Warm up"..and the standby state for most of them do just that, keep it just warm to play well.
 
To the best of my knowledge, there is no electron "flow". Electrons don't move from one end of a conductor to the other.
Correct. Their movement is chaotic and random and they move slower than a snail.


So how does electricity travel? Especially pay attention at 4:39 to drift velocity

 
Last edited:
I was under the understanding that most electronic equipment have an ideal operating temperature as per design and thats why they sound good after "Warm up"..and the standby state for most of them do just that, keep it just warm to play well.
IEC says 40deg C ambient and temperature rise limited as per the insulation class for electrical and electronics used in power systems. Generally high accuracy meters, protection systems are required to be in climate controlled rooms to keep the design parameters.

They are working in harsher environment and require very high accuracy else things would burn, trip or you may get overcharged or undercharged for the energy you consume.

Do Audio industry specify such temperature limits to ensure the equipment work at design parameters? No idea.
 
When electrons flow through any material there is heating that can alter the resistance determined by Temperature coefficient of resistance. Conductor have positive coefficient and resistance increase and change value. Semiconductors drift from the cold state value to reduce the resistance due to negative coefficient. Dielectric have non linear characteristics and caps change value over increase in temperature.. when the devices are switched on the values change over time due to increase in temperature inside. So do these equipment operate at the design parameters?
Excellent points Subbu.

The loudspeaker drivers seemingly were not yet mentioned, re: temperature. As they go from non use to use, the temperatures of the magnetics and their interface with the voice coil changes, as does the physical suspension ( spiders and outer surround ) tend to re-break in some, VS being resting and unused for a while.

Jeff
 
Excellent points Subbu.

The loudspeaker drivers seemingly were not yet mentioned, re: temperature. As they go from non use to use, the temperatures of the magnetics and their interface with the voice coil changes, as does the physical suspension ( spiders and outer surround ) tend to re-break in some, VS being resting and unused for a while.

Jeff
The voice coils come under conductor.

Mechanical parts definitely undergo change in stiffness and other properties that is the real "burn in" IMHO. just like you have to drive your car at 100kmph max for first 1000kms for pistons to settle.
 
The voice coils come under conductor.

Mechanical parts definitely undergo change in stiffness and other properties that is the real "burn in" IMHO. just like you have to drive your car at 100kmph max for first 1000kms for pistons to
Ah! Speaking of engines, some car manufacturers have reduced their bedding in times and distances with every new engine made or new manufacturing process. Some dont even bother with the process of running-in an engine anymore(though u may still see it in the user manual)because of sophisticated manufacturing processes. But what remains from the old process is a 1000/2000/10000 mile/km first oil change. Actually some manufacturers dont open the hood until 40-70k miles/km as a first service. Given all of the above production sophostication, wonder how much of it is valid for audio equipment.
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
Back
Top