While browsing Mogami site, I came across this page which provides some cable gyan: wire & cable mystery - puzzle
Hope you guys would find this useful.
Hope you guys would find this useful.
Cable gyan
- Thread starter captrajesh
- Start date
@Msaab90, I've not gone through all the information but just glancing through few of the links provided pointed to availability of very useful information. Hence thought of sharing it here.
I admit that I've not been able to spare some time to go through all the links. Hope to do sometime soon. Though I'm a known member of the 'Cable Believers Camp', I thought the cable "rationalists" would come in with their own 'creative' inputs but surprised at the lack of participation.
Let's get going folks.
Let's get going folks.
I admit that I've not been able to spare some time to go through all the links. Hope to do sometime soon. Though I'm a known member of the 'Cable Believers Camp', I thought the cable "rationalists" would come in with their own 'creative' inputs but surprised at the lack of participation.
Let's get going folks.
Captain, one can be a cable believer and still be a cable rationalist
My two cents are this: I believe in engineering. I believe in science. I also believe that audio quality is one of those ephemeral pursuits that is frustrating and ridiculously rewarding, often at the same time.
But what I do feel offended by is hocus pocus engineering. Note - I am not saying hocus pocus science. But only engineering. I did read a lot of the links, but my sceptical question still is - are these guys trying to solve the right problem?
One thing that I do believe in, is the 80-20 rule. What is the 20 percent effort we can put , that can give us 80 percent rewards? I only see the cable camp fail in this regard.
I have no issues if someone with a $10k setup is trying to get the last bit of performance out of their setup. And to be honest, if they upgrade their power cord or plug point, it would still be a 2 percent cost upgrade.
But for most of us, and unfortunately myself included,I find these pursuits pointless. And the engineering I read about, sounds a lot like a con job. I also like to analyze tech startups from an investment perspective (personal basis, not professional), and this often smells like a lot of companies. Not that they lie outright, but misrepresent the cost/benefit. Which is most often enough to paint a completely different picture.
Captain, one can be a cable believer and still be a cable rationalist
My two cents are this: I believe in engineering. I believe in science. I also believe that audio quality is one of those ephemeral pursuits that is frustrating and ridiculously rewarding, often at the same time.
But what I do feel offended by is hocus pocus engineering. Note - I am not saying hocus pocus science. But only engineering. I did read a lot of the links, but my sceptical question still is - are these guys trying to solve the right problem?
One thing that I do believe in, is the 80-20 rule. What is the 20 percent effort we can put , that can give us 80 percent rewards? I only see the cable camp fail in this regard.
I have no issues if someone with a $10k setup is trying to get the last bit of performance out of their setup. And to be honest, if they upgrade their power cord or plug point, it would still be a 2 percent cost upgrade.
But for most of us, and unfortunately myself included,I find these pursuits pointless. And the engineering I read about, sounds a lot like a con job. I also like to analyze tech startups from an investment perspective (personal basis, not professional), and this often smells like a lot of companies. Not that they lie outright, but misrepresent the cost/benefit. Which is most often enough to paint a completely different picture.
Spot on. and snake oil has always been a reality . It is present in Audio and unfortunately a lot more in Food (Not that i am justifying audio snake oil but that it is a personality trait among us humans since time immemorial)
Eg not sure if you folks hear the ad on Horlicks being netter than plain milk or the Saffola oil scam. Not to talk of the Bollocks around fats and linkage to cholestrol
Point is we need to be very sure of what we are buying and that it is not jsut making someone rich and at the same time being harmfull to us monetarily, physically or mentally !
Buying any cable based on mumbo jumbo and thinking it will improve the system based on a review and without hearing it is akin to buying growth and stamina enhancing pills which are spammed to all
hyeah:There are people who are fanatics on audio and getting that 2% right become an obsession .now that value of the 2% being right or wrong is not for me to decide. it is for that person since audio is a very emotional connect.
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True that. Let me rephrase that sentence by replacing the 'rationalist' with atheist. Though most of the believers would've developed the beliefs from their personal experiences, the 'atheists' would attribute the beliefs to 'psychoaccoustics', 'placebo effect' etc.one can be a cable believer and still be a cable rationalist
How at the same time!
But I'm quite sure that there are quite a few people out there who would ask 'what about the balance 20%'
Spot on.
How at the same time!
But I'm quite sure that there are quite a few people out there who would ask 'what about the balance 20%'
Spot on.
Sometimes, a component upgrade wull , say, add a lot more detail and clarity, but will change the "sound" too. So sometimes I wonder if the swap/upgrade was worth it.
With the 80/20 rule, I was wondering if we upgrade cables because it is the easiest and cheapest upgrade to do, instead of ascertaining if it is the right upgrade to do. Even among cables, I personally feel that ICs are vulnerable the most.
Upgrading is the easiest decision to make and a costlier one, especially in cables- but not always the right one.
It is surprising as to the amount of problems which can be fixed by proper speaker placement, solid vibration control and clean power. Assuming that the basic components ie Source/Amplification and speakers are good, I believe more than 50% of problems are these which are thought about by fixing via changing components and maybe another 30% to room acoustics
And I doubt if more than 20 % of all folks with good equipment do get the above right
If we keep power cables out, I found the max difference with Digital cables, followed by IC and only then speaker cables
+1
To me this follows the logic that source is king i.e. losses at the source cannot be regained downstream (cable or gear). Roy Johnson of GMA, made it a point to explain to me that in his research he found that the distortion that takes place is not additive but exponential as you go downstream.
His recommendation: Spend the most you can at the source.
And the reason is that no component is perfect (never a straight wire with gain) hence adds its own distortion and that can be to an already distorted signal which goes on depending on the number of components you have. Hence usually makes sense to keep it minimum at the start of the chain (and to keep the chain small) assuming all are of similar quality. there are of course cases where one component could be doing lot more and thats what you upgrade
Cables always come at the very last here and hence have to be the last to change since changes in a good system may only by around 5% or nearby in a figurative sense..but when the system itself is excellent then that % can really make an impact.
My personal preference has been always to find a neutral/accurate and resolving Transport/DAC instead of warm/laid back etc etc and prefer the rest happens between the amp/speaker/Room
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One more point I would like to add to this discussion and based on my observations is that the resolving ability of a system is very critical to hear benefits of cable changes/if any in a system.
So listeners may not experience the better sound of a particular cable, due to their system's ability while someone with a different system may hear better sound - and this in turn leads to a lot of the arguments seen in cable discussions.
Please note this has nothing to do with the cost of cables, it applies equally to cheap and expensive cables alike.
Cheers,
Sid
So listeners may not experience the better sound of a particular cable, due to their system's ability while someone with a different system may hear better sound - and this in turn leads to a lot of the arguments seen in cable discussions.
Please note this has nothing to do with the cost of cables, it applies equally to cheap and expensive cables alike.
Cheers,
Sid
I think this thread can be handy if we share some tips which we experienced by ourselves on practical field. At least it can be useful for new bees who can avoid wastage of their hard owned money.
Today I want to share my experience about coax cable, to tell more precisely it is about the length of coax cable. I am pretty sure senior members already well aware of the fact but I have not found any thread on our forum about it, I also get to know about it just few months ago. So here is my story.........
The Story about the length of Digital COAX
At the start of this hobby my system was pc sourced paired with Audio-gd FUN. Fun was bought because it was dac cum headphone amp and that time I confined myself with headphones only. Later I decided to use it with an Indian mini hifi system called Metablitz. So bought a coax cable called Monster 850, it's length was 4 feet. Kindly note the length. That time it was a impulsive buy, no thought behind it except the brand. Later I replaced my whole system few times (with different brand like Emotiva, NAD, DENON, Music-Hall etc.. as amp and Polk, Cabasse etc. as speaker, source also changed from Philips CD player to Marantz)
Till the middle of 2014 I tried few other coax cables to replace the Monster 850. DAC coax from hifimart and Belden 1694A from Bluejeans, They were all 3 feet in length. Believe me, both of the coax cable not only failed to improve the sound, but I felt opposite. Especially I have big expectation from Belden 1694A of Bluejeans, it was built upon so technically solid background and had better RCA connector. So feeling hopeless I decided to stick with that 4 feet monster 850. I have no clue if there was any thing wrong. Thought, may be the Monster was the best out of three.
Few months ago I decided to try a SIGNAL Silver Resolution Reference rca cable replacing the monster 850. The Signal reference was made of silver copper alloy and it's length was just 2 feet.
Guess what, after trying for few hours I just could not tolerate it anymore. Some distorted veil was there between music and my ear which I never felt with Monster 850. Actually before that I made a decision to import a SIGNAL Silver Resolution Digital Coax which seems to be same as my Silver Resolution Reference Analog RCA, that is why I decided to try with that 2 feet cable before final buy. But what can be wrong with other cables I had apart from Monster 850?
Now I had strong doubt that something was wrong. Out of disappointment I discarded the decision to buy from Signal Cable site, decided to visit Anticable webpage, wondering if they have some thing better to offer. Anti cable had already won my trust as their reference speaker cable (top one) and Analog RCA already improved the sound quality of my system than any other brand I tried. I was trying to buy 1 metre of coax cable and there I first came to know that Anticable only sell 1.5 metre length of cable, they do not recommend to use any coax cable as spdif interface less than 1.5 m or 5 feet, reason was given there, "reflective nature of digital transmissions" spdif
So after few days of goggling I found few more article and preferable length of coax. Most recommendation was 1.5 to 2 m or 5 to 6 feet approx and it was also told that for coax, wire design matters more than it's material. Now I wanted to minimize my risk, so ordered a very cheap coax from Amazon.in (Buy Pure Oxygen Free Copper Coaxial Dolby Digital SPDIF RCA Male Audio Cable 1.5m Online at Low Prices in India - Amazon.in) to verify the fact with own ear. It was just a Rs.350 priced cable, arrived within 4 days. This particular cable was very soft but felt very cheap compared to Monster, DAC and Bluejeans but connector quality was good.
Immediately replaced the monster 850 with that cheapest generic one. Wow! for the first time I felt more relaxing with the sound within 4 years for replacing the coax. Remember, a Rs.4000 priced cable was replaced by just Rs.350 priced one. Fact was confirmed after quite few time of switching between the Monster and the generic one. Now for me it was quite clear why with that 2 feet (SIGNAL silver reference analog) cable my system sounded so bad. It was due to the length of cable, in this case (COAX Spdif) shorter length is not better like we used to find with analog, so for the same reason 3 feet cable from Belden 1694A and DAC were found to be worse than 4 feet Monster. I am really grateful to Anticable for their helping article.
So after 1 month of experiment I decided to order a new Belden 1694A from Bluejeans, because I do not wanted to stick with the cheap generic one and it was also become clear that for coax cable which we intend to use between digital source and DAC, the length and technical aspect or design are prime factor rather than the fancy material like we use in case of analog RCA, so this time my ordered length was 2 metres.
As expected, bluejeans 1694A (Belden) got the upper hand over both Monster and Generic one, whereas due to the shorter length my previous attempt to replace the Monster was failed by the same brand.
So my conclusion is please replace your 2 or 3 feet length coax cable with 5 to 6 feet (1.5 to 2 m) length one and hear the difference. I am sure you will get more effortless and relaxing sound than ever and will fall in deeper love with your components especially with the DAC.
P.S. It is not applicable for optical cabling, my experience was limited only for Digital Coax.
Today I want to share my experience about coax cable, to tell more precisely it is about the length of coax cable. I am pretty sure senior members already well aware of the fact but I have not found any thread on our forum about it, I also get to know about it just few months ago. So here is my story.........
The Story about the length of Digital COAX
At the start of this hobby my system was pc sourced paired with Audio-gd FUN. Fun was bought because it was dac cum headphone amp and that time I confined myself with headphones only. Later I decided to use it with an Indian mini hifi system called Metablitz. So bought a coax cable called Monster 850, it's length was 4 feet. Kindly note the length. That time it was a impulsive buy, no thought behind it except the brand. Later I replaced my whole system few times (with different brand like Emotiva, NAD, DENON, Music-Hall etc.. as amp and Polk, Cabasse etc. as speaker, source also changed from Philips CD player to Marantz)
Till the middle of 2014 I tried few other coax cables to replace the Monster 850. DAC coax from hifimart and Belden 1694A from Bluejeans, They were all 3 feet in length. Believe me, both of the coax cable not only failed to improve the sound, but I felt opposite. Especially I have big expectation from Belden 1694A of Bluejeans, it was built upon so technically solid background and had better RCA connector. So feeling hopeless I decided to stick with that 4 feet monster 850. I have no clue if there was any thing wrong. Thought, may be the Monster was the best out of three.
Few months ago I decided to try a SIGNAL Silver Resolution Reference rca cable replacing the monster 850. The Signal reference was made of silver copper alloy and it's length was just 2 feet.
Guess what, after trying for few hours I just could not tolerate it anymore. Some distorted veil was there between music and my ear which I never felt with Monster 850. Actually before that I made a decision to import a SIGNAL Silver Resolution Digital Coax which seems to be same as my Silver Resolution Reference Analog RCA, that is why I decided to try with that 2 feet cable before final buy. But what can be wrong with other cables I had apart from Monster 850?
Now I had strong doubt that something was wrong. Out of disappointment I discarded the decision to buy from Signal Cable site, decided to visit Anticable webpage, wondering if they have some thing better to offer. Anti cable had already won my trust as their reference speaker cable (top one) and Analog RCA already improved the sound quality of my system than any other brand I tried. I was trying to buy 1 metre of coax cable and there I first came to know that Anticable only sell 1.5 metre length of cable, they do not recommend to use any coax cable as spdif interface less than 1.5 m or 5 feet, reason was given there, "reflective nature of digital transmissions" spdif
So after few days of goggling I found few more article and preferable length of coax. Most recommendation was 1.5 to 2 m or 5 to 6 feet approx and it was also told that for coax, wire design matters more than it's material. Now I wanted to minimize my risk, so ordered a very cheap coax from Amazon.in (Buy Pure Oxygen Free Copper Coaxial Dolby Digital SPDIF RCA Male Audio Cable 1.5m Online at Low Prices in India - Amazon.in) to verify the fact with own ear. It was just a Rs.350 priced cable, arrived within 4 days. This particular cable was very soft but felt very cheap compared to Monster, DAC and Bluejeans but connector quality was good.
Immediately replaced the monster 850 with that cheapest generic one. Wow! for the first time I felt more relaxing with the sound within 4 years for replacing the coax. Remember, a Rs.4000 priced cable was replaced by just Rs.350 priced one. Fact was confirmed after quite few time of switching between the Monster and the generic one. Now for me it was quite clear why with that 2 feet (SIGNAL silver reference analog) cable my system sounded so bad. It was due to the length of cable, in this case (COAX Spdif) shorter length is not better like we used to find with analog, so for the same reason 3 feet cable from Belden 1694A and DAC were found to be worse than 4 feet Monster. I am really grateful to Anticable for their helping article.
So after 1 month of experiment I decided to order a new Belden 1694A from Bluejeans, because I do not wanted to stick with the cheap generic one and it was also become clear that for coax cable which we intend to use between digital source and DAC, the length and technical aspect or design are prime factor rather than the fancy material like we use in case of analog RCA, so this time my ordered length was 2 metres.
As expected, bluejeans 1694A (Belden) got the upper hand over both Monster and Generic one, whereas due to the shorter length my previous attempt to replace the Monster was failed by the same brand.
So my conclusion is please replace your 2 or 3 feet length coax cable with 5 to 6 feet (1.5 to 2 m) length one and hear the difference. I am sure you will get more effortless and relaxing sound than ever and will fall in deeper love with your components especially with the DAC.
P.S. It is not applicable for optical cabling, my experience was limited only for Digital Coax.
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I recently got a call from my cable operator asking me to upgrade to HD STB.
I said my TV is 32" and I watch it from > 8' distance.
He said that HD offers higher resolution than SD, and therefore picture will appear clearer.
I said the distance from which I watch my TV, this improved resolution won't make any difference to me (won't be visible to my eyes).
###
At the end of that day, I don't think either of us was wrong.
(The eyes not being able to view higher resolution simply based on what I saw at my flat owner's home with HD box, he claimed the difference is day and night)
I said my TV is 32" and I watch it from > 8' distance.
He said that HD offers higher resolution than SD, and therefore picture will appear clearer.
I said the distance from which I watch my TV, this improved resolution won't make any difference to me (won't be visible to my eyes).
###
At the end of that day, I don't think either of us was wrong.
(The eyes not being able to view higher resolution simply based on what I saw at my flat owner's home with HD box, he claimed the difference is day and night)
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reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
For coaxial cable what matters most are:
-> Length - 1.5m or multiples
-> 75 ohm connectors. AFAIK the only true 75 ohm RCA connectors are made by eichmann - very expensive but good. Everything else is not true 75 ohm. The other option is to use BNC.
-> XLR connectors are actually worse for SPDIF protocol as they require a distortion inducing coupling transformer.
-> Maintaining directionality. Pretty much all coax cables are built directional.
-> Length - 1.5m or multiples
-> 75 ohm connectors. AFAIK the only true 75 ohm RCA connectors are made by eichmann - very expensive but good. Everything else is not true 75 ohm. The other option is to use BNC.
-> XLR connectors are actually worse for SPDIF protocol as they require a distortion inducing coupling transformer.
-> Maintaining directionality. Pretty much all coax cables are built directional.
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Got two sets of ASI Liveline - a cable I wanted to try for a long long time. First impressions are gorgeous detail with absolutely perfect tone and timing, the layering of instruments just feels so so real. AMR seems to use these in many shows. I am absolutely not surprised.
Wanna get the speaker cable as well now.
Wanna get the speaker cable as well now.
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In my setup the cost of cables and interconnects will be less than 1% of the cost of the setup. I strongly believe that if you have phase shifts in your cross-overs due to component tolerances in the cross-over then even a million dollar worth of cable will be of any use here. Its better to resolve the phase shift issue rather than fixing it with expensive cables which cannot solve the issue.
A more practical, subjective and scientific discussion will be in this link Cables, Interconnects and Other Stuff - The Truth which is a must read for all the cable investors.
A more practical, subjective and scientific discussion will be in this link Cables, Interconnects and Other Stuff - The Truth which is a must read for all the cable investors.
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