Cable gyan
- Thread starter captrajesh
- Start date
definitely the quote of the Month :clapping::clapping:
Do reasonable quality of cable ( I am using normal finolex twin wiring cable - 18SWG commonly used for home electric wiring with a outer black pvc shield which also Kapvin(FM) uses) for my speakers which was costing Rs.42/- a meter two years ago. Can this wire ever degrade? Not atleast for 50 years i think so.
If yes then its a serious issue because it can cause havoc in the electrical industry which uses them to supply very high current to the tune of 15Amps and above. I think my tube amp will have less than 500mA of current through it.
Using lower guage wires can reduce wire resistance and reasonable know quality will have less impurity in the copper unlike chinese wires. I have heard that some Chinese speaker wires are made up of iron (not copper) and they make it look very shiny to fool people. Always buy a known brand (even Finolex and Esaycab will do) rather than an unknown Chinese source.
If yes then its a serious issue because it can cause havoc in the electrical industry which uses them to supply very high current to the tune of 15Amps and above. I think my tube amp will have less than 500mA of current through it.
Using lower guage wires can reduce wire resistance and reasonable know quality will have less impurity in the copper unlike chinese wires. I have heard that some Chinese speaker wires are made up of iron (not copper) and they make it look very shiny to fool people. Always buy a known brand (even Finolex and Esaycab will do) rather than an unknown Chinese source.
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Let me break the bad news.
Not all those who claim to have scientific backing on their cable products deliver in terms of listening results.
Case in question, BlueJeans cable.
The below list of articles would point to them doing justification to whatever cables they sell.
Index to Articles -- Blue Jeans Cable
But my experience is, these cables are absolutely poor in details delivery and has monotone bass which hardly qualifies as normal music let alone hifi.
I have had good luck with even Chinese cables who show you nothing more than a picture and price tag with un comprehensible English stating cable sound properties.
So my current stand is the below.
1) Cables do make a different and huge one in that. The last 15% of sound is attained only through cables.
2) Scientifically backed cables do not sound good always.
3) Price is just an indicator but not the final word on how a cable sounds. You may upgrade to a cable which can sound poorer than the previous one.
4) Cables enhance and degrade certain aspects of sound. Some call it EQing but I have never got good results in terms of details and soundstage by EQing. I don't know what they do but it is beyond tone control like a lot of people assume.
5) Lot of cables excites when listened for the first time but are hard to live with when you discover the flaws. The cables with most flaws sometimes excites the most during cable swap listening - Not the best way to judge cables.
6) Any change in the system sound better than previous for 'some' time. Should wait for the honey moon period to fade away before shelling out money.
7) Cables sound different and have various synergies with different other cables. Whether the difference is a positive or negative change is determined by you. That's where you come in. And the positive or negative change in this matter is different for different peoples. Usually someone who has similar tastes as yours and does not hear your system all the time can be more accurate that you!
Lastly, I am an atheist and a believer of reason and logic. But the cables defy science.
The changes between well made cables cannot be measured scientifically or through microphones, double blind tests etc.
More so with the digital cables and power cables to digital components. They hell make difference and I am ashamed to not know why and still keep swapping them.
Not the freaking logical explanation I know and I wont accept it myself coming from anyone else's mouth, but hey that is all I have!
Not all those who claim to have scientific backing on their cable products deliver in terms of listening results.
Case in question, BlueJeans cable.
The below list of articles would point to them doing justification to whatever cables they sell.
Index to Articles -- Blue Jeans Cable
But my experience is, these cables are absolutely poor in details delivery and has monotone bass which hardly qualifies as normal music let alone hifi.
I have had good luck with even Chinese cables who show you nothing more than a picture and price tag with un comprehensible English stating cable sound properties.
So my current stand is the below.
1) Cables do make a different and huge one in that. The last 15% of sound is attained only through cables.
2) Scientifically backed cables do not sound good always.
3) Price is just an indicator but not the final word on how a cable sounds. You may upgrade to a cable which can sound poorer than the previous one.
4) Cables enhance and degrade certain aspects of sound. Some call it EQing but I have never got good results in terms of details and soundstage by EQing. I don't know what they do but it is beyond tone control like a lot of people assume.
5) Lot of cables excites when listened for the first time but are hard to live with when you discover the flaws. The cables with most flaws sometimes excites the most during cable swap listening - Not the best way to judge cables.
6) Any change in the system sound better than previous for 'some' time. Should wait for the honey moon period to fade away before shelling out money.
7) Cables sound different and have various synergies with different other cables. Whether the difference is a positive or negative change is determined by you. That's where you come in. And the positive or negative change in this matter is different for different peoples. Usually someone who has similar tastes as yours and does not hear your system all the time can be more accurate that you!
Lastly, I am an atheist and a believer of reason and logic. But the cables defy science.
The changes between well made cables cannot be measured scientifically or through microphones, double blind tests etc.
More so with the digital cables and power cables to digital components. They hell make difference and I am ashamed to not know why and still keep swapping them.
Not the freaking logical explanation I know and I wont accept it myself coming from anyone else's mouth, but hey that is all I have!
Logically speaking, the best possible sound can be achieved by a highly integrated system that combines a source, DAC, preamp, power amp, and speaker in one single package. With the shortest possible signal path between all this circuitry.
The closest implementation of this that I can think of - that is not a cheap boombox - is an active studio monitor. But this too doesn't integrate the source, only everything else.
The closest implementation of this that I can think of - that is not a cheap boombox - is an active studio monitor. But this too doesn't integrate the source, only everything else.
Degradation do not only caused by cables but by the whole chain of components, from live recording studio to till the reproduction by the speaker. Is exact replication possible? Answer is No. But it can be very very close.
So cable can not be make responsible alone for such degradation, but when you want to make better synergy between components to hear the best possible performance (from a certain system) as per your perception, cables have relatively small but quite crucial role.
Everybody is not DIY type of person, if so then that person would have replaced some internal components over hundred times till he manage to break the board or become tired
to get the best tone of own choice. Most common example is many of us roll their tubes and op-amps to get the sound of their choice."Phase shifts due to component tolerances in the cross-over" is the thing I do not want be bother if the system come from a very respected brand, I will assume it is already taken care of.
I can bet, there are many enthusiastic among us who spent lots of money to procure individual components from very renowned brand as suggested by their well knowledgeable friends. But after assembling the total system, if they find the sound is intolerable in spite of some regular carpeting and curtaining job and following some general advise about placement of speaker (like 3 feet from both walls). Then what? Should he start to built an audiophile or studio like listening room ignoring his family members? Should he replace the whole components to play another round of gamble? Or should he start to replace the inside parts reckoning some thing must be wrong with the unit of that well known brand though it is not broken in regular term.
.
Cables can be handy to address such situation. System can sound worse or better in relative term because of cables. If you never felt so, you are lucky to make your own conclusion.
I am not advising that everyone should spend lakhs for cables. On the contrary through this thread if the person become well aware of some basic cable brand like Canare, Mogami, Belden, Choseal, Gotham, Gepco ................ etc. (please fill in the blanks
) then he might avoid some unnecessary expenditure by not making himself a prey of some civilized predator (Exception will be always there).I just want this thread "Cable gyan" should not be a place (like thousands of other threads) only to debate against or for importance of cables , but beginners should know to keep the length of their analog interconnects as short as possible, I mean some handy knowledge
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The unfortunate thing is that if the SQ is not good after the selections of amps, speakers, sources, room corrections, placements etc, then replacing the cables and interconnects with expensive ones will not solve the problem. If it would have, then everyone would have bought cables / interconnects first and later followed it with rest of the hardware.
The unfortunate thing is that if the SQ is not good after the selections of amps, speakers, sources, room corrections, placements etc, then replacing the cables and interconnects with expensive ones will not solve the problem. If it would have, then everyone would have bought cables / interconnects first and later followed it with rest of the hardware.
Hari Sir,
You misinterpreted my post, I never suggested that.
I just need some handy knowledge from senior respected members like you. Whatever you thought in this regard I will try to keep remember them without indulging into some unnecessary debate.
Best regards
My intention is not to prevent anyone from buying expensive cables, but only to inform the right thing from my own experience and some reading about them in the web. If some FM enjoys and have the budget to buy fancy and expensive cables after they have done everything else, then they should for sure go ahead and buy them. After all margins in Amps / speakers & other hardware is very too less for dealers to sell due to heavy competition, but very very high in cables/ interconnects even if they sell less. It also helps dealers to be in business and keep earning regularly with less hassles.
After all everything its only about self-satisfaction and belief. If anyone strongly believes everything about how interconnects and cables can do wonders to their SQ should go and buy them irrespective of any claims anywhere. Its also have the psycho-acoustics playing in the subconscious mind which helps sometimes in perception in improvement or otherwise.
I could never get convinced at the first place about cables and interconnects improving SQ and am still not, unless someone can prove me utterly wrong. I will myself go-ahead and admit all my post otherwise with apologies.
After all everything its only about self-satisfaction and belief. If anyone strongly believes everything about how interconnects and cables can do wonders to their SQ should go and buy them irrespective of any claims anywhere. Its also have the psycho-acoustics playing in the subconscious mind which helps sometimes in perception in improvement or otherwise.
I could never get convinced at the first place about cables and interconnects improving SQ and am still not, unless someone can prove me utterly wrong. I will myself go-ahead and admit all my post otherwise with apologies.
If you are in Hyderabad sometime, will love to prove you.
IMO, Cables make or break a system.
I can make any really awesome set of equipment to sound very bad in a jiffy. That will be enough proof for you.
The converse needs awful lot of time, resources and energy.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
I agree this.Tried a cable shootout with FMs.Cable cost Rs40 to Rs.400 per meter(may be total 7) and found certain change in sound quality with the cable changed.Some were good,some noisy and some better on same setup.
I am not comparing Rs.40 with Rs.400, here there will be difference due to contact resistance, wire quality and gauge, but I am talking about Rs.400 and Rs.4000 value cable difference. I want to compare those to check for difference.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Between the Rs.400 & Rs.4K cables, there will be the same claimed differences of "contact resistance, wire quality and gauge" - no point in comparing them too
Not convinced about SQ improvement.Between the Rs.400 & Rs.4K cables, there will be the same claimed differences of "contact resistance, wire quality and gauge" - no point in comparing them too
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Improvement over what? I'm very clear and convinced on this: some cables, by virtue of material used, geometry, susceptibility to RFI/EMI etc attenuate certain frequencies. That is the difference!
No cable can technically "improve" on another cable that faithfully allows all frequencies to pass through (without attenuation).
For example, and I was chatting with another FM recently on this, some cables attenuate the lower mid and lower frequencies a little and that causes the perception of more detail. A neutral cable would not do this but that does not mean that the details are not there in the cable that is neutral. They are present but just not as forward as before by virtue of the other frequencies that are now "louder" than before.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
And to people who say that you need resolving gear to determine differences in cables: I can hear a difference in my "cheap" micro component system too. Small differences but they are still a difference. Which could mean:
a. My "cheap" micro component aystem is a "resolving" piece of garbage.
b. I have "golden ears". Shudder!
a. My "cheap" micro component aystem is a "resolving" piece of garbage.
b. I have "golden ears". Shudder!
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If you can have a "cheap" system resolving differences in cables than all I can say is that you are very fortunate. Hold onto that system as long as you can. In my experience, which is not very much btw, cheaper components tend to muddy micro transients (such as those in recording with stringed instruments) which imo are very important to determine how resolving the recording is and cables help to certain extent in this regard. So if the system is not resolving enough to differentiate this in the first place than one cannot hear whether the cables are contributing or not.
Cheers,
Sid
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Guys cable discussions can get very heated which we have seen in the past and also recently in certain other cable related threads. In the spirit of exchanging information smoothly let us keep this discussion "Civil" and avoid flame wars or personal and sarcastic comments. Please note, this is a general warning, not directed at anyone in particular and posts breaking this rule will be deleted.
Cheers,
Sid
Cheers,
Sid
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