Cable gyan

[spirovious]

I am already convinced that Cables can make difference not necessarily costly.

 

[srisaikat]

I could have started an another thread, but thought no need to start another just to debate and convince. I liked the heading "Cable gyan", so......

Here is a video link especially dedicated for them who do not believe in cables without witnessing the various phenomenon at macro level. This video is a demonstration of the famous Canare L-4E6S about it's very well known noise rejection capability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJWkpeaLoIc

 

[omishra]

What I found with different cables that they take out hi frequency details or make it harsh sounding. I did not had any issues with LF and any cables. Same way vocals breathing details with accuracy, guitar strings and piano chords air vibrations goes missing in lot of cables. Santoor is another instrument which shows up gears limits.

 

[kanna.sridharan]

Hello to all here..

Recently Ive been trying to switch from my wireless network setup to wired a setup. I was using an Apple Airport Express to stream music connected to the Arcam irDac via optical input, a lot of people suggested the wired route telling me there would be a lot of difference. If I have to pull a wire from my PC to the DAC, the min. cable length required is around 9~10 mtrs.

1). After a lot of reading I was to believe that USB A to B max. cable length should not exceed 5 mtrs. - so did not look for these cables .

2). I bought a MX 10 mt coaxial cable, connected from the Asus Xonar Essence coax out to the irDAC - found the gain to improve drastically when compared to the Airport Express, somehow at times I feel it doesnt sound pleasant, it sounds really bright and harsh.

Could anyone please suggest the best method to go wired, in view of the distance I have to take the cable.

thanks & Regards

 

[Bharathram]

Kanna
We will be able to suggest if you can provide your connection map (how are individual components connected from the source till the speaker, which cable HDMI/RCA/optical etc. in each these connections)

Regds
Bharath

 

[kanna.sridharan]

Sources : 1. PC - Coax out(Asus Xonar Essence) to DAC - (10m MX)
2. Tata Sky HD+ - Opt Out to DAC - (1m ? cable)
3. Pioneer BDP450 - Coax Out to DAC - (1m DAC cable)
eliminated sources while opting for the wired route
4. Xtreamer Pro via opt. out - connected my PC to the TV using a NAX CS-7 10m HDMI cable
5. Apple Airport Express via opt. out


DAC : Arcam irDAC - Inputs Available 2 - Coax, 2 - Opt, USB input -> connected to the amp using a Cambridge Audio RCA 1m

rest of the setup - NAIM Nait 5i-2 -> VDH Royal Jade 3mtr pair -> B&W 683


After posting here, was looking thru this website Ghent Audio --- U04 USB(A to B) DAC Belden Audio Cable , and had written to them asking if a custom length of 10m is possible. They've replied saying 10mts will work, only for distance above 12-14mtrs there would be signal drop.

Requiring FM's advice on how to proceed further.

Thanks & Regards

 

[Bharathram]

Kanna
Thanks. My suggestion is that you should look at having single source of music (preferably PC) and play everything through that route. I had the same problem of having lot of music in my Ipod, some in my PC and some in DVD's. I consolidated everything to my HTPC, and hence got rid of analyzing whether the quality difference is because of sources or cables or DAC's.

Pls try this before buying anymore cables or gadgets.

 

[krishnamurthy]

Among the umpteen cable brands available, which cables are value for money for the following?

Subwoofer cable
Speaker cable
HDMI cable

 

[Fantastic]

I find that cable manufacturers call shielded cable with a better shield ( double shield) as subwoofer cable. This is great for marketing and also for technically measured numbers. The shield reduces the ingress of external EMi and specifically hum fields ( 50 or 60 Hz).

In practice, if you do not use very high impedance circuits like 100K and above, the induced hum levels will be low especially with 10 k ohm loads which is fairly common. Double shielded cables will reduced the induced hum further . But how high is the hum with a good cable at say 10 meters ? Depends on the EM fields around the cable but generally with line level inputs you shouldn't hear any hum at the sub. In a majority of cases hum would be due to ground loops and other earthing issues rather than the ( good quality !) cable. Good cables ? Belden, Canare etc. Or other well known professional cables ! Nothing like XLR cables and connectors for long runs ! If your machine doesn't have XLR inputs or outputs you can build one or buy an adapter. XLR cables are freely available here as they are used in the pro-audio industry where performance is VERY important !

Blue Jeans seem to be assembling cables with connectors using very good quality cables...Belden mostly I think. Their cables should be very good. But try out (good) cables from the local market at vastly lower prices before switching to premium cables. You won't loose much and you might sometimes be in for a surprise. You do get Chinese speaker cables that are quite good and fairly expensive too ! However cheaper than importing something. Is it better or as good as the Blue Jeans ( Belden) etc ? Well maybe someone with access to various brands can tell us. There are some threads on this already.

Always remember. You will hear what you 'want to hear' ! So use others without prior knowledge of what is being done (!) to evaluate the comparison. No matter what it is.

By the way, I bought some expensive HDMI cables with my OPPO player. The machine came with a standard looking HDMI cable. The expensive cable was 'fat' and heavy. I find no difference between the cables on a large screen TV. In fact the expensive cable is rather heavy and tends to pull the connector plugs down raising the doubt if it will affect the socket with time and make it unreliable or even damage them!

 

[Naturelover]

Among the umpteen cable brands available, which cables are value for money for the following?

Subwoofer cable
Speaker cable
HDMI cable

BlueRigger is being recommended of late on the forum. You could also look at DAC (that's a brand name) available from hifimart and BlueJeans.

 

[Naren]

among the umpteen cable brands available, which cables are value for money for the following?

Subwoofer cable
speaker cable
hdmi cable

qed
supra

 

[keith_correa]

Just wanted to share a perspective from a claimed "cable designer". This is from an "Interconnect Inductance vs. Capacitance" thread from 2009 in Audiogon. Searching in Google for a complete sentence from what I pasted below should lead you to the complete thread in case you are interested. And, please don't shoot the messenger

Cable Designer:

For an interconnect, there is no question you want low capacitance or the treble begins to roll off, coupled with group delay. The group delay can have a significant effect on the subjective impression of speed and dynamics of much of the music spectrum. But inductance is another matter. Inductance in an interconnect is really only relevant in that it affects the characteristic impedance of the cable. In an ideal world the characteristic impedance of an interconnect would be at, or slightly above, the output impedance of the upstream component. If the characteristic impedance of the cable is below the output impedance of the upstream component then phase errors can get audible, particularly in the bass, and is a major cause of the belief that interconnects can be system dependent. If the characteristic impedance of the cable is too far above the output impedance of the upstream component then it can act as an antenna and pick up noise and fine detail will be lost or obscured. With no standard for output impedance for audio components then one of the challenges for a designer of interconnects is how to minimize the problems of impedance mismatches. Some claim to have effectively eliminated this problem with their designs.

Response to Cable Designer post:

Interesting post. But I think it should be pointed out that many, and I would venture to say most, people with relevant technical knowledge (who are not manufacturers of certain high-end cables) would disagree with some of your statements about characteristic impedance.

Characteristic impedance, being part of what are called "transmission line effects," is (at least for typical interconnect lengths) generally considered to be utterly inapplicable to audio frequencies. Note that I limited the statements in my first post above to cables carrying analog audio, not digital signals, video, or rf.

And I am at a loss to see how, even if there were some significance at audio frequencies, phase errors in the bass would result from impedance mismatch.

I do agree that pickup of high frequency noise might, in the hypothetical case of a cable that is both unshielded and unbalanced, be influenced by impedance mismatch between cable and source component. However, noise rejection is best addressed, and is usually addressed, by quality shielding and, in the case of balanced interconnections, by common mode rejection.

Cable Designer:

I should disclose that I am a cable designer and so you can accuse me of being a snake oil salesman now (insert smiley face here - I am taking a shot at myself, not at you). But responding to your point. One of the problems in science is that when experimenting you need to assume certain variables are not relevant in order to observe the impacts of an experiment on what you believe to be relevant. You cannot screen out all other variables all of the time. This leads the electrical engineering field to have certain beliefs - such as the one you have expressed, that many issues in transmission theory don't apply at audio frequencies for short cables. That is fine for the EE that simply wants to make something work. To optimize a system, it is not good enough. In pushing the envelope to develop better audio cables many/most designers I know revisit what the typical EE assumes away as irrelevant, and tests whether indeed it makes a difference. A good case in point these days is skin effect. Most EEs I know that are not working in high end audio will assume skin effect is an irrelevant issue for audio frequencies, and yet there are many of us designing cables who have found otherwise, and many designs are specifically targeted at dealing with skin effect in various ways today. Another example is in the area of digital cables, where one of the smartest designers I know, Dan Lavry, has at least once stated his belief that using a correct impedance cable is not relevant for short lengths of a meter or so, yet most digital cable designers have found otherwise. Using absolute beliefs is a necessary part of life, or we would be hopelessly confused. But testing for how those absolutes are really shades of gray is necessary for some innovations to occur. When I design, I just try different things. When I hear an effect, I search for a theory that might explain it. Armed with a possible theory, I then conduct an experiment to see if in fact using the theory to predict the outcome of different iterations proves to be useful. If it does then it adds to the mix of theories I use to optimize a cable's performance. In the vast majority of cases the theories that I use are accepted theories, just not normally considered to be relevant at audio frequencies for short cables. I suspect we are wandering far from the OP's interests, my apologies to the OP.

 

[Hari Iyer]

The equivalent circuit of an loss-less transmission line and lossy transmission line is in the link Understanding the Transmission Line Theory

So even if the conductor had resistance, for a short line it will be in the range of 0.1 to 0.5 ohms. The inductance will be in microhenries and capacitance will be in picofarad. I think having the small inductance and capacitance will be an advantage rather than an disadvantage. For instance having some capacitance will help to remove the high freq noise (RF & EMI) else it would creep into the signal. Also having some inductance will help to filter out HF noise rather than working against it. The only way to reduce resistance would be to use a thicker guage, shorter length and probabally bi-wiring your speakers.

Reading this article any conductor will have an inductance and capacitance in it and some amount of resistance too. Most of them will apply and make serious issues only at VHF, UHF & microwave frequencies only. For audio frequencies i would rather say its a boom to have them than to worry.

 

[keith_correa]

The equivalent circuit of an loss-less transmission line and lossy transmission line is in the link Understanding the Transmission Line Theory

So even if the conductor had resistance, for a short line it will be in the range of 0.1 to 0.5 ohms. The inductance will be in microhenries and capacitance will be in picofarad. I think having the small inductance and capacitance will be an advantage rather than an disadvantage. For instance having some capacitance will help to remove the high freq noise (RF & EMI) else it would creep into the signal. Also having some inductance will help to filter out HF noise rather than working against it. The only way to reduce resistance would be to use a thicker guage, shorter length and probabally bi-wiring your speakers.

Reading this article any conductor will have an inductance and capacitance in it and some amount of resistance too. Most of them will apply and make serious issues only at VHF, UHF & microwave frequencies only. For audio frequencies i would rather say its a boom to have them than to worry.

Capacitance and inductance does not differenciate between RF/EMI hash and valid frequencies - they all will be treated the same way - rolled off.

The key is to get low here. Which I think is also what you are saying. And is also what he said. So if he already said it - why say it again? hyeah:

Reading this article any conductor will have an inductance and capacitance in it and some amount of resistance too.

I don't need to read the article to tell me that.

 

[Hari Iyer]

The key is to get low here.

You don't have to worry much about the inductance and capacitance in the short length and audio freq at all. And for resistance of the conductor nothing much to worry if its less than 0.5 ohms.

I don't need to read the article to tell me that.

Yes sir, you are aware of the Thevenin equivalent & Nyquist criterion too -- i am sure.

 

[keith_correa]

Yes sir, you are aware of the Thevenin equivalent & Nyquist criterion too -- i am sure.

Nope, I've heard of Nyquist, but can't claim to be well informed in any detail about his and Thevenin theories at all. What I don't know can't hurt me

 

[Fantastic]

The Nyquist criterion is used to determine the stability of a system. No one actually checks this when using cables. In any case the majority of amps are unconditionally stable. To study the stability using the Nyquist criteron you need to first get all the electrical properties of the amp and other external parts and put it into an equation ! This isn't too easy and not for the faint hearted ! I've never seen anyone do this when using different cables. You connect a cable and if the amp oscillates , it isn't suitable for that amp. Period !
However there have been cases of 'super cables' with high capacitance and/or inductance which have blown up hi-end amplifiers. But then that is also due to the amp having a poor stability margin. A design flaw actually ! They do get away with it as a majority of cables wouldn't induce instability in that amp.

Thevenin equivalent and Norton equivalent circuits are methods used to break down an electrical circuit to it's component parts to study it's overall electrical properties. It isn't a 'theory' . It's a practical way of studying the electrical behaviour of a set of components. It certainly doesn't belong to the living room or the home theater !

Why bring these into this discussion ?

 

[keith_correa]

Why bring these into this discussion ?

You may (I say "may" because I don't know any better) be right. Why indeed! Unless it was to show me down. If that were to be true, I already shot that down by professing total ignorance. Which is entirely true.

 

[jls001]

You don't have to worry much about the inductance and capacitance in the short length and audio freq at all. And for resistance of the conductor nothing much to worry if its less than 0.5 ohms.

There are two situations where one has to worry about capacitance of the audio cable at audio frequncies for interconnects:

1) MM cartridges need capacitance (and impedance) matched for optimal sound. So a low capacitance cable is often a good choice.

2) When using a passive volume control in place of an active preamp or active buffer, the lowest capacitance cable from volume control to power amp is desirable. I possible, use shortest length of lowest capacitance cable that will work for your application. The high freq roll-off due to high cable capacitance for passive pres is not subtle. This is one of the reasons why it is more difficult to get passive volume controllers to sound right.

 

[Hari Iyer]

It again depends @ what impedance of the load. The cartridge impedance is usually around 800 ohms and the capacitance should be low depending on that impedance else it will interact. If the input impedance is high then most of the high freq will be grounded by the cable capacitance itself.