Comparing Shure M97xE and V15 Type III

Hi Tanoj,
Denon DL-160 is mismatch with your TTs arm(low mass).Your tonearm will match perfectly with high compliance carts like Shure M97xe/OrtofonOM10 etc.DL-160 is low compliance cart and it requires medium to high mass arm.

Regards,
Sachin

Copy-pasting the specs of the DL 160 from here:

Specifications:
Output: 1.6mV
Stylus: .1 x .2mm special elliptical diamond
Cantilever: aluminum
Frequency range: 20-50,000Hz
Compliance: 14x10-6cm/dyne
Tracking force: 1.3-1.9g
Weight: 4.8g

@sachu: anything above 13x10-6cm/dyne is high compliance. So the DL 160 ought to work well in low mass arms too?

@Tanoj: which arm do you use?

I can try an exercise - try out the DL 160 in my lightest arm (ADC LMF2) which is a very light arm (6 gms effective mass) to see if it works on very light arm, or needs something more substantial.

Erratum: I checked www.cartridgedb.com. The compliance for the DL160 is 10x10-6cm/dyne which puts it in the low-compliance category. It will certainly need a higher mass arm or at least mid-mass arm.
 
Last edited:
Copy-pasting the specs of the DL 160 from here:

@sachu: anything above 13x10-6cm/dyne is high compliance. So the DL 160 ought to work well in low mass arms too?

Hi Joshua,
Dl-160 is low to medium compliance suits well to medium to high mass arm.M97xe and OM 10 are high compliance(20 and 25).

Regards,
Sachin
 
I am hoping that by the time it puts in about 25-30 hours it will be much better. Will update as it puts in more hours. Will play around with phono pre settings later. Right now it is on MM setting.

Some update: the cartridge has done 30+ hours and have opened up well. So I fiddled with the resistive loading in the phono preamp. First setting tried was 1000 ohms. It sounded better than 50000 ohms setting (which was used for MM - there is no 47000 ohms setting in my phono pre). This helped open up the highs more.

After some listening, I switched to 2000 ohms and that sounded better so that's the setting for now.

Capacitive loading choices are rather limited - 200 or 300 pF. I am using 200 pF.

No change in gain setting as 44 dB is more than sufficient for this high-output MC cartridge. I briefly tried 56 and 60 dB gain settings but realised that the volume had to be turned down by an equivalent amount for my usual listening volume. So it was back to 44 dB. I assume that the SNR at 44 will be better than it is at 56 or 60 dB.
 
Capacitive loading choices are rather limited - 200 or 300 pF. I am using 200 pF.

HI Joshua,
MC carts are not sensitive to Capacitance loading.Now a days almost every MM cart manufacturer recommends lower cap settings (150pf to 200pf) except Shure M55e(400pf - 500pf).

Regards,
Sachin
 
Last edited:
Capacitive loading choices are rather limited - 200 or 300 pF. I am using 200 pF.

HI Joshua,
MC carts are not sensitive to Capacitance loading.Now a days almost every MM cart manufacturer recommends lower cap settings (150pf to 200pf) except M97xe(400pf - 500pf).

Regards,
Sachin

Sachin, even MX97xe suggest 250pf with 47K.
 
does anyone speak english in here :) man, this seems way too technical. any web-site which would help understand these terms in layman language. Joshua, do you take an classes on these subjects? :) (im serious!)
 
does anyone speak english in here :) man, this seems way too technical. any web-site which would help understand these terms in layman language. Joshua, do you take an classes on these subjects? :) (im serious!)

If one has to get more out of analog deck, whatever has been discussed here is just scratching the surface. Depending on the adjustability of your arm and phono stage, and the availability of the tools to do a proper job, there are quite a lot more parameters one can worry about. But the good thing is one can attain may be 90% of the full potential of one's setup without going too deep into this quagmire. But a pleasurable quagmire it is.

By the way, I started out into analog journey only very recently and I still remain a noob. Whatever I have learned are out of necessity, and dollops of interest. The resident expert on all things analog are Rajiv, Viren, Steven, Manav, Prem and Ajit.

Addendum: how can I forget G401fan to the list of resident experts! My bad.

Addendum 2: adding sachu888 to the list. Again my bad.
 
Last edited:
To get back to the thread:
Further update: Last night I had enough idle time so I tried various ressistive load values starting from 50K Ohms, 25K, 2K, 1K, 300 something and 121 Ohms. 2000 Ohms still remains the best sound for my setup.
 
To get back to the thread:
Further update: Last night I had enough idle time so I tried various ressistive load values starting from 50K Ohms, 25K, 2K, 1K, 300 something and 121 Ohms. 2000 Ohms still remains the best sound for my setup.
 
To get back to the thread:
Further update: Last night I had enough idle time so I tried various ressistive load values starting from 50K Ohms, 25K, 2K, 1K, 300 something and 121 Ohms. 2000 Ohms still remains the best sound for my setup.

is it sounding more open than when I heard it?
 
is it sounding more open than when I heard it?

I think so. But do remember you had biased your ears the whole day with the Resurrection, and later with the Maggie, Tidal and Kuwero:) so most anything post that would sound crappy.
 
DL 160 update: it's been some 44-45 days since I started using the DL 160 cartridge, and by my guesstimate it has put in 200+ hours. In the last few days (say from last Friday), I have noticed an improvement in the sound quality. This manifests in better placement of voices (meaning a human voice or instrument note) in space and the greater ease with which a voice can be followed. There is also improvement in the frequency extremes.

The last change I made to my system was on the previous Saturday, 9 days ago. I had swapped the phono pre to pre IC, but I did notice any drastic improvement then, though there definitely was a change (for the better).

I have 3 possible explanations:

a) the cartridge really comes into its own after 200 odd hours of play.

b) late night listening sessions is good as the power supply is cleaner.

c) I am playing better cleaned records (which I have been doing furiously in the last few days, btw).

Whatever the real explanation, I am happy to hear much better sounding music from my system. I suspect it is a composite of all the above reasons.
 
Some update: today I received the Ortofon Kontrapunkt c bought off agon. Reached me in six days flat. No Customs trouble this time.

This cartridge, when it was in production, was top of the line in the Kontrapunkt range. The others were named a, b, and h. B A C H. Named for the great composer. The Kontrapunkt line has been superseded by the Cadenza line now.

First impressions are very good indeed. Right now it's playing only the second side of a record. Will pen down more detailed listening impressions after it has put in more hours.

The cartridge is retipped by Soundsmiths with a superior cantilever and diamond, so it is not entirely Ortofon.
 
I have played a total of 8 record sides so far from last night and this morning.

As the needle dropped for the first time, the basic character of the cartridge came through - deeper bass (though it sounded bloated for quite some time), better high frequency extension (I could discern a "shadow" of a shimmer, hitherto unheard in my analog setup - I must add).

It was deja vu all over again - like the time I heard much better frequency extensions at both extremes when I changed from the MM Shure V15/III to HOMC Denon DL 160. Going back even further, this was the same feeling I got when the venerable Shure V15 replaced the more modern Shure Mx97E, which Shure likes to tout as the replacement for the V15 line. The Kontrapunkt c replaces the Denon DL 160, which is my reference point for the purpose of this write-up. I understand they are classes apart but then the DL 160 was the best cartridge I had prior to the Kontra c.

By the time the c was playing the last track of Side B of the first record, the bass had firmed up substantially. The quantity of bass had seemingly reduced but the specific tonalities of kick drums, bass guitar and synth bass became much more discernible. Upper high frequency shimmer which was there but sounding a bit brittle initially, and a mere promising silhouette had metamorphosed into something much more tangible.

At this point, I must mention that I had chosen the lowest impedance loading available in my phono stage (59 Ohms; recommended range being 50 to 200 Ohms). The VTA was also a guesstimate and it turned out to be tad taller than optimal and the business end of the arm was drooping down on the record surface. I had set the Phono stage gain at 56 dB, though 60 dB is also available. With this gain setting, I need to boost my preamp by about 5 to 6 dB from my usual listening volume.

After the third record had completed playing, I dismantled the arm board and did the whole height adjustment rigmarole for the second time in the same evening. This exercise is always fraught with extreme danger despite the stylus guard, so it is not something I do lightly or relish in my tonearm. VTA adjustment on older SME arms is a much easier affair - loosen screw with appropriate sized allen key, adjust height to taste, tighten screw. While I was at it, I changed cartridge loading to the next higher value available in my phono pre (121 Ohms - don't ask me why these odd figures of 59 0r 121 Ohms - that's what I get in the phono pre).

The result of these changes - a more correct VTA, different cartridge loading, and 6 sides worth of burn-in, and perhaps properly warmed up pre amp and amp produced a much more coherent sound. Bass tones have become more palpable. The air around the highs is beginning to sound very sweet. Backing vocals are beginning to stand out. Instrument tones have developed a nice, chunky bite. Instrument decays are much more discernible. But the biggest change I heard was in the quality and quantity of bass. Now I know the kind of bass my modest speakers are capable of reproducing. And to think I had always cribbed about the bass response of my speakers:) Need to listen to more varied tracks (especially violin-, sax- and piano-based tracks) to see how the c fares.

Once I figure out the best loading value, I will modify my Hypnotoad MC phono pre to this value. I had got mine with a view to running it with the Denon DL 103, so the current value is probably not the best loading value.

All in all, a very worthy upgrade.
 
Last edited:
Congrats Joshua!

I'm sure you'll come to love the Kontrapunkt. Personally I love Ortofon carts for their tonal qualities and balance. Two carts at either extremes, the OM 5e and the SPU both have the same sound traits, very natural sounding. Have you put this in your OL tonearm?

Regards
 
Hi Joshua,
You can try 5 ohms for R1/R9 and 80 Ohms for R2/R10 in HT MC PS.This would be the better combination for this cart in HT MC MS(IMO)

Regards,
Sachin
 
Hi Joshua,
You can try 5 ohms for R1/R9 and 80 Ohms for R2/R10 in HT MC PS.This would be the better combination for this cart in HT MC MS(IMO)

Regards,
Sachin

Thanks, Sachin. Will try this values. I think it's time I actually complete this project:) now that I have a real LOMC (and not to mention another project set to come up soon, thanks to you).
 
Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers in Red Mahogany finish at a Special Offer Price. BUY now before the price increase.
Back
Top