Definitely my experience too. A great amp and speakers will be very revealing of a source's shortcomings. I too, from experience, believe the money is well spent in getting the best source possible (this need not be the most expensive component in your chain though as the prices of great sources are coming down rapidly). However, it makes no sense IMHO to have a system so unbalanced towards speakers and amp.
DAC around INR 100k
- Thread starter ranjeetrain
- Start date
Definitely my experience too. A great amp and speakers will be very revealing of a source's shortcomings. I too, from experience, believe the money is well spent in getting the best source possible (this need not be the most expensive component in your chain though as the prices of great sources are coming down rapidly). However, it makes no sense IMHO to have a system so unbalanced towards speakers and amp.
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
1) these two are least likely to be trapped inside veils in the first place
2) whoever is marrying them would definitely lift the veil (inter alia)...
ranjeetrain
New Member
My experience has been very different.
A glaring example was the Evolution Acoustics audition wherein I played for hours with tons of very expensive components in a very extensive manner and documented my observation soon after. Differences between a USD 1000 source (my then transport HP Elitebook Notebook + Nuforce HDP DAC) and order of magnitude more expensive source (Goldmund transport + Goldmund DAC PRE + Benchmark HDR 1 DAC) was not obvious. It needed very careful listening to hear the differences. Even as amplification was Mark Levinson and Speakers were USD 69,000 (EA MM3).
That was not the only instance. I have tried this many a times in different set ups, with different electronics, at different places. Outcome has been the same. Changes in the source resulted in minimal changes in the overall sound signature. After USD 1000-1500 mark, the improvement in DACs is very hard to discern, and requires very upstream electronics and speakers to voice it. Most DACs in USD 1000-1500 get very close to the truth. Beyond that point the price is for specialization, suitability to specific tastes, compatibility with certain electronics etc.
This indeed calls for a DAC shoot out. I did push for a DAC shootout during the Delhi meet, and it did happen, but it was far from being a proper shoot out as the environment was not controlled.
I propose that we organize a shootout (most likely at any FMs place, who has a super high end system) in controlled environment to develop an understanding on this subject.
On my part, my personal experience is that USD 1500-2000 is where point of diminishing returns kicks in (for systems up to INR 1 million). There are many a very similarly and very vastly differently priced DACs out there. From the review what I gather is - reviewer find it hard to hear differences, even in their reference systems. Most of them find the differences "subtle" rather than "substantial". So, if cost were not a concern, indeed it would be nice to have a source that extracts even that last drop of detail from a recording. But in a more finance restricted systems like I mentioned above, IMPO, USD 2000 is a very good point where diminishing return kicks in.
I agree 100%. After the US$ 1500 price point (new), the difference are very subtle at best. I find that tonal difference are more apparent, but then liking or disliking a DAC based on those differences is a very personal matter.
To be honest I am very hesitant to use $$$ as the basis for the quality 
especially in sources. but I was looking at differences between amps Sugden vs leben shown using 2 different transports .
With my old Classe, the difference was slight..but using my softone, the lebens resolution was leagues ahead. Both using my reimyo Dac and Merlin speakers.
This is very subjective as well as OT but difference in sources are very subtle unlike speakers which hit you on the face.
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especially in sources. but I was looking at differences between amps Sugden vs leben shown using 2 different transports .With my old Classe, the difference was slight..but using my softone, the lebens resolution was leagues ahead. Both using my reimyo Dac and Merlin speakers.
This is very subjective as well as OT but difference in sources are very subtle unlike speakers which hit you on the face.
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ranjeetrain
New Member
That's the crux of the matters.
Beyond the point of diminishing return, more money definitely buys 'better' components, but that 'better' is very subjective. Most of the times differences are absolutely immeasurable. Only way to justify spending on them is - by the qualitative difference they make to a system in a setup.
A jump from a USD 2k DAC to a 4k DAC may or may not make a a substantial difference in the final sound of a setup, but a jump from USD 2k to 4k in the speakers will make a day and night difference in any setup. That's a undeniable truth.
Beyond the point of diminishing return, more money definitely buys 'better' components, but that 'better' is very subjective. Most of the times differences are absolutely immeasurable. Only way to justify spending on them is - by the qualitative difference they make to a system in a setup.
A jump from a USD 2k DAC to a 4k DAC may or may not make a a substantial difference in the final sound of a setup, but a jump from USD 2k to 4k in the speakers will make a day and night difference in any setup. That's a undeniable truth.
Hi Ranjeetrain
Moving from a $2000 cd player to say a $4000 cd player might be less obvious when compared to shifting from a $2000 speaker to a $4000 speaker. But when you move from a $2000 cd player to a $20000 cd player, its a completely different ball game, probably even more dramatic when moving from a $2000 amp to a $20000 amp. I am saying this from experience. I have had cd players, amps and speakers in many price categories. Even today if i am spending serious money, my entire effort goes into getting the right source and it normally takes away a lot of my budget.
Moving from a $2000 cd player to say a $4000 cd player might be less obvious when compared to shifting from a $2000 speaker to a $4000 speaker. But when you move from a $2000 cd player to a $20000 cd player, its a completely different ball game, probably even more dramatic when moving from a $2000 amp to a $20000 amp. I am saying this from experience. I have had cd players, amps and speakers in many price categories. Even today if i am spending serious money, my entire effort goes into getting the right source and it normally takes away a lot of my budget.
SatMumbai
Active Member
I envy the experience that you have got and I need to put a disclaimer to my assumption - I have not heard any equipment which is beyond 10K USD (few exceptions like KEF Blades, McIntosh Amps and Sonus Faber Aida). I definitely do not know what is beyond 10K USD and even more 20K USD
Having said that, I still stand by what I was suggesting (albeit with some correction). With a Digital Source after 1K - 1.5K USD price point, extra SQ with the additional cost (up to 5 times) is at best subjective and with this additional money diverted to speakers offer much better returns. I have no clues what happens after 10 to 15 times the 1.5K USD budget.
Hi Satmumbai
As you have experienced, going from 2k to 4k to 6k in a source probably gives you better extension, a little more details, etc. These may or may not not make such a great difference to the listening pleasure. Its only when you start getting low level details, does your experience change. For this to happen, noise floor has to be reduced dramatically as well as all details/info on the recording needs to be captured. This is where the $15000 plus players start excelling. IME, frequency extremes is not so crucial for listening enjoyment. But low level information definitely is. This is why you also have super expensive racks, power conditioners, etc. Its all about dropping the noise floor to capture the low level information.
If you do not capture the low level info at the source stage, nothing in the chain will get it back. Which is why to me the source becomes my focal point.
As you have experienced, going from 2k to 4k to 6k in a source probably gives you better extension, a little more details, etc. These may or may not not make such a great difference to the listening pleasure. Its only when you start getting low level details, does your experience change. For this to happen, noise floor has to be reduced dramatically as well as all details/info on the recording needs to be captured. This is where the $15000 plus players start excelling. IME, frequency extremes is not so crucial for listening enjoyment. But low level information definitely is. This is why you also have super expensive racks, power conditioners, etc. Its all about dropping the noise floor to capture the low level information.
If you do not capture the low level info at the source stage, nothing in the chain will get it back. Which is why to me the source becomes my focal point.
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Problem with upgrading sources is that it needs to be done along with better power , isolation as well as more resolving cables to really feel the difference and through that the cost factor gets really high .
..I had not saved this and now see prem's post which is a lot more specific and articulate on the same ! To be be more specific it's not really the main tones but the presence of harmonics in the sound which needs to be better brought out ..and that's what gives the timbre and realistic character to the sound... Very very difficult to do as there are many many "moving parts" to be managed
IME it is the lack of these harmonics which might give an artificial clarity to the sound with separation of instruments..but sucks away the soul. Eg the sharp tightness of a drum is very often due to lack of the lower harmonics getting reproduced
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...I had not saved this and now see prem's post which is a lot more specific and articulate on the same ! To be be more specific it's not really the main tones but the presence of harmonics in the sound which needs to be better brought out ..and that's what gives the timbre and realistic character to the sound... Very very difficult to do as there are many many "moving parts" to be managed
IME it is the lack of these harmonics which might give an artificial clarity to the sound with separation of instruments..but sucks away the soul. Eg the sharp tightness of a drum is very often due to lack of the lower harmonics getting reproduced
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Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
The stuff that I listened to music on in my childhood was noisy. When you turned it on it buzzed, hummed, hissed, etc. Sometimes it did this even with the volume at zero. These days --- it doesn't. And, if it does, the problem is external such as earth loops. These days, even the cheapest of kit is silent, isn't it? That is to say that the "noise floor" is well below anything we can hear. How do you reduce it even further than that?
Added to which, "silent" actually means "makes less noise than the ambient." Check out the actual dynamic range possible to hear in your own room, and wonder why we make a fuss about the difference between a SNR of 104dB or 108dB? It certainly made me wonder why I ever bothered to compare such things.
But is there more to this than meets the ...err... ear?
Hi Thad e ginathom
In cd players, the disc rotates at very high speed which can result in micro vibrations which can obscure low level info. Which is why Esoteric transports are so highly regarded. Also there is a lot of electrical noise generated in a digital player. They need to be addressed. Each circuit in the better cd players have their own transformer. There could be 8-10 transformers. All this increases cost.
In record players, the challenges are more mechanical. Power issues are far less.
In cd players, the disc rotates at very high speed which can result in micro vibrations which can obscure low level info. Which is why Esoteric transports are so highly regarded. Also there is a lot of electrical noise generated in a digital player. They need to be addressed. Each circuit in the better cd players have their own transformer. There could be 8-10 transformers. All this increases cost.
In record players, the challenges are more mechanical. Power issues are far less.
Hi ranjeetrain/satmumbai/thad e ginathom
Let me try and address the importance of a great source differently.
Attach a microphone to your existing amp and get someone to sing into it. Hear how it sounds through your existing speakers. Now change to a more fancy speaker, keeping everything else same. There will be some improvements but the essence of the person singing will still be captured.
Now go back to your source. You will see a big drop in the musical enjoyment. In the previous experiment the singer became the source and no info was lost there at the source. Once you switched to your existing source a lot of the info got lost.
Let me try and address the importance of a great source differently.
Attach a microphone to your existing amp and get someone to sing into it. Hear how it sounds through your existing speakers. Now change to a more fancy speaker, keeping everything else same. There will be some improvements but the essence of the person singing will still be captured.
Now go back to your source. You will see a big drop in the musical enjoyment. In the previous experiment the singer became the source and no info was lost there at the source. Once you switched to your existing source a lot of the info got lost.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
The only component I have known to produce audible electrical noise in the last several decades is ... turntables!
SatMumbai
Active Member
That is an interesting way to look at it and I am in complete agreement with you on the Low level information to be retained though I am having a feeling that high end audio market is maturing too and a 10K USD product which was made 7 years back, might have noise floor level similar to a 2K USD product which is made today (not sure but only guessing).
Analogy is how pricier were those 46" LEDs few years back to what they cost know (Though the economies of scale in the compared industries are very different)
As I said, till now, the most enjoyable component that I had from Electronics perspective is Classe SSP-800. It has got an amazing sound quality which I really like. However I found the Classe CP-800 to have lower noise floor especially when I did back to back testing. Everything was super clean and I could hear a bit more. Though I enjoyed listed to the SSP-800 relative to CP-800
Also, with respect to the Power regenerators, some of the other forum posters whose opinions I respect, have mentioned that things became more clinical and enjoyed the sound from Direct Wall Connection. Same is with Power Cables. In some situations they like the stock Power Cable and in some they like an upgraded version. It feels more trial & error than any specific process.
This is where I got lost. When ever I listen to a live concert, the concert hall add a specific dimension to the music than pure unadultered sound (let us say in heavily dampened record studio) and it is very enjoyable. Different concert halls add a little bit different (not massively different) signature and every time it is very enjoyable as these slight differences all add up in a good way (almost)
Luckily I do not have 20K USD budget for a component in the chain but this discussion, at best, made me be open for high end and not remove them from consideration.
BTW, if some one is keen, currently I am finding the Devialet D-Premier is an excellent product (Design Wise, Technology Wise, Environment friendly wise) and hopefully will listen to it some time soon to make an opinion !!
Hi satmumbai
Moderators think the thread is going OT. So do not want to continue on this topic. The only reason i raised it was a lot of members here felt it did not make sense to put $15 - $20000 on a source. They were only looking at tone and extremes, for which i agree you do not have to spend huge amounts. And yes i agree the quality you got in digital for say $10000 about 10 years back can now be had for much less.
Moderators think the thread is going OT. So do not want to continue on this topic. The only reason i raised it was a lot of members here felt it did not make sense to put $15 - $20000 on a source. They were only looking at tone and extremes, for which i agree you do not have to spend huge amounts. And yes i agree the quality you got in digital for say $10000 about 10 years back can now be had for much less.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
As we are talking about DACs, the vibration of disc mechanisms is offtopic, although the importance of the DAC as source is the question, so taking analogy or example from other source items might be valid.
You can trust us, though, not to get derailed into yet another digital v analogue diversion. Plenty of other threads for that. My point, though is about noise floors, and the SNR is one piece of data that is going to be there in the spec of a DAC.
Turn that volume up --- to at least any real-life-loud setting. Hear anything? Given the level of investment being talked about, I hope that the answer is no. So you don't even reach the noise floor. It can't be, effectively, reduced.
This may be a semantic point. It may be an academic point about definitions. I do get that the point is to improve the fidelity/quality/experience of the music, whatever technical terms we are using.
It's like deeper blacks on a TV screen. Pixels off is as black as it gets. You cannot have negative pixels. But deeper blacks is something that one quite often hears in TV reviews, so there must be an optical effect/illusion that creates that sense. Similarly, noise floors aside, the silences are sometimes among the most important part of music, and it is what comes either side of that silence that creates that effect, not the silence itself --- unless we are talking about a certain piano composition!
SatMumbai
Active Member
I understand prem. Some other time / place.
^^^
guys i was only referring to the conversation just drifting into a "Room Correction" debate. kindly keep up with the examples etc...
And yes, the $10k plus DAC's of yesterday are quite easily (if not beaten) bruised by even $1500 DAC's of today.
Personally I feel, that the sonic improvements that one gets above the $1500 price point are minuscule. I personally have not been able to justify spending anything beyond this price for my DAC.
Another really huge factor that stops me spending more than this is the fact that most digital tech changes dramatically every 2 years. Rendering the DAC of today quite out of date.
So, in short, not only does one get hit by the law of diminishing returns, one gets rogered on re-sale. And considering we are here in India, even a lightly preowned product gets lesser than 50% resale value, when you try and sell it...
guys i was only referring to the conversation just drifting into a "Room Correction" debate. kindly keep up with the examples etc...
And yes, the $10k plus DAC's of yesterday are quite easily (if not beaten) bruised by even $1500 DAC's of today.
Personally I feel, that the sonic improvements that one gets above the $1500 price point are minuscule. I personally have not been able to justify spending anything beyond this price for my DAC.
Another really huge factor that stops me spending more than this is the fact that most digital tech changes dramatically every 2 years. Rendering the DAC of today quite out of date.
So, in short, not only does one get hit by the law of diminishing returns, one gets rogered on re-sale. And considering we are here in India, even a lightly preowned product gets lesser than 50% resale value, when you try and sell it...
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