DBT-$3 vs $8000

[Ambio]

This is another published double blind test (DBT) to prove that cables do make a difference. Don't spoil the fun by searching Google for the discussion. Let's discuss with open mind. The good news is at least half of them either preferred the cheaper cable or couldn't tell the difference. The blessed ones now got an extra $7997 to buy better speakers or more music.

Cable A = $3
cable B = $8000
Cable C = $1200
Cable D = $1000

Results from 40 participants are as follows.

1) Cable A vs B = 56% for Cable B, 39% A , No difference 5%
2) C vs D = 54% for C. 32% for D, No difference 15%
3) B vs C = 49% for C, 32% for B, 19% No difference .
4) C vs A = 41% for C, 29% for A, No difference = 29%
5) D vs A = 41% for D, 27% for A , No difference = 32%
6) A vs C = 49% for C, 41% for A, No difference = 11%


Note that 4 and 6 were using the same cables but in reversed order. The results were interpreted to show that all the other cables were better than $3 cable.

Anyone want to discuss?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The good news is at least half of them either preferred the cheaper cable or couldn't tell the difference.

Obviously, those people didn't have any ears! :lol:

 

[Ambio]

There must be something very wrong. It is impossible they could have liked $3 cables over $8000. anyway, looks like the $3 never outperform any of the high end cables.

 

[Audio_Freek]

Obviously, those people didn't have any ears! :lol:

I too was not comprising with the statement on "Cable play some role in bringing the frequency to the Speaker"

I was using dead cheap cables (Just 5 Rs Per Meter) for some years. One day saw a speaker cable like a almost Coaxial cable size and got attracted towards that and got it for 110 Per Per meter Just to feel the difference.

But I would say the High frequency was flowing so neatly compared to my old cheap cables

So until you feel the difference, its Mith .But until you have good ears nothing going to make difference whether it 3 or 30K Cable.

I could find the difference between the Worst and best and not between the averages \Worst\best.

 

[Ambio]

...I was using dead cheap cables (Just 5 Rs Per Meter) for some years. One day saw a speaker cable like a almost Coaxial cable size and got attracted towards that and got it for 110 Per Per meter Just to feel the difference.

....

The cables must meet the minimum requirement for the current/Voltage. Mind giving the cables length and size?

I am actually using a Lawn Mower power cord as speakers cable for my rear speakers. I wouldn't mind doing a AB with the Audioquest using my main speakers. I could post the recording to soundcloud. Honestly, I don't think the recording would reveal anything.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I was using dead cheap cables (Just 5 Rs Per Meter) for some years. One day saw a speaker cable like a almost Coaxial cable size and got attracted towards that and got it for 110 Per Per meter Just to feel the difference.

You might have had the same experience changing them for Rs4/metre cables :lol:

It is not that cables cannot make a difference. It would seem perfectly feasible that manipulating their electrical properties could alter the sound, and that might be designed or accidental. So... I wonder how much resistance and capacitance $8,000 buys? Or even $1,000.

Of course, these are thoughts of a cynic, but I strongly suspect that what it gets you is wire hand-drawn in an oxygen free environment by Japanese virgins from copper mined in their own village, silver-plated to take care of the skin effect, made to look as pretty as the young ladies with inch-thick casing, deeeeep-frozen, teslerated (or whatever they do) ...and all that crap. . Pay enough, and the Japanese virgins come and install the stuff for you. Now... that might be worthwhile

(Nothing against Japan, or Japanese ladies: just that I seem to remember something about copper mined in some particular village there).

All this is partly because I'm cynical, and maybe partly because I'm a bit old. Whilst I was more open to the idea of "better" cables, until recent years*, I was baffled when I first encountered the idea of using wire as a tuning device. Audiophiles used to just buy amplifiers and speakers they liked, and that was the end of the story bar the music listening.


*No, wait, I still am open to the idea of better cables: the ones that do nothing at all. Transparent cables.

 

[Ambio]

I am interested in the Japanese cable. But I am going to DBT not the cables....


Guys, I thought there is something to learn form the results. Why no one is discussing that? That would help us to make a correct decision when buying cables. One thing is clear HIFi Or Audiophiles forum is not about sound but about equipment. sound can be described. If something helps to reveal a micro detail that was never heard before it can be described clearly pointing at the exact time the hidden micro detail emerges with with the new cables. That information can be verified. I am yet to find for such information.

 

[arj]

I am interested in the Japanese cable. But I am going to DBT not the cables....


Guys, I thought there is something to learn form the results. Why no one is discussing that?

there have been several discussions in the past on this and the only difference proven so far is the difference in opinion

 

[jls001]

I am interested in the Japanese cable.

Two speaker cables from Japan you may like to try - Mogami 3103 and Oyaide Across 2000. The former is 13 AWG multi strand OFC copper. The latter is also multi strand copper, thinner than 13 AWG (I don't know exact gauge but it is thinner than the Mogami) but OCCC (Ohno Continuous Cast Copper) of 7N purity. The former has regular PVC jacket and is quite flexible despite the thick diameter, while the latter has very rigid jacket.

I won't give my impressions to avoid biasing anyone.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

If only the electrons knew what care and expense gets lavished upon them.

jls001 (or anyone?) Why oxygen free? I've been hearing this since ...forever, but never heard a reason except some dubious stuff about the copper not oxidising.

 

[Ambio]

Two speaker cables from Japan you may like to try - Mogami 3103 and Oyaide Across 2000......

Thanks. I am actually looking for a realiable cable for HT and would consider them.

,,,,

Why oxygen free? I've been hearing this since ...forever, but never heard a reason except some dubious stuff about the copper not oxidising.

To prevent bacterial growth Actually, I think you can get 8N cables.

 

[dheerajin]

If only the electrons knew what care and expense gets lavished upon them.

jls001 (or anyone?) Why oxygen free? I've been hearing this since ...forever, but never heard a reason except some dubious stuff about the copper not oxidising.

Spot on...electrons do not entertain five star facility, when they are running at the speed of the light and yes 99.99% pure copper, OFC nowadays is term used to impress beginners..

 

[arj]

If only the electrons knew what care and expense gets lavished upon them.

jls001 (or anyone?) Why oxygen free? I've been hearing this since ...forever, but never heard a reason except some dubious stuff about the copper not oxidising.

Technically Oxygen is an impurity in copper. copper purity is known in terms of "nines" it 4 nines which is the maximum we know of is 99.99% and has the highest conductivity.

Interestingly oxygen is added to the copper during the production to remove Hydrogen and Suphur from it

Metallurgists are trying to increase this even higher but maximum reached is 6 nines although for most domestic applications the difference is negligible.

Oxygen free does not really mean no oxygen but reduction below .05% and conductivity is max at .02%

nice graph here showing conductivity on x and impurity on Y for 99.9 and 99.99% purity

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

To prevent bacterial growth

:yahoo:

Technically Oxygen is an impurity in copper. copper purity is known in terms of "nines" it 4 nines which is the maximum we know of is 99.99% and has the highest conductivity.

... ... ...


nice graph here showing conductivity on x and impurity on Y for 99.9 and 99.99% purity

Thank you for throwing some real science in on this. Now, I wonder if it is appropriate-to-audio science, or another "skin effect" thing?

 

[Ambio]

there have been several discussions in the past on this and the only difference proven so far is the difference in opinion

We can move forward with sharing actual cables and relevant information that may make have caused the difference unless it is going to be uncomfortable confronting the truth. This is not the first. In any forum, when it comes to to the poll and feedback the response is usually lukewarm. Why? They rather believe than knowing the truth.

 

[keith_correa]

(or anyone?) Why oxygen free? I've been hearing this since ...forever, but never heard a reason except some dubious stuff about the copper not oxidising.

Because of "better" electrical conductivity. Now this "better" is not much better than non OFC wire so this "better" conductivity is almost insignificant so as to make a difference. If anyone tells me that because cables are OFC, they sound better, I'll call out B.S!!!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Because of "better" electrical conductivity. Now this "better" is not much better than non OFC wire...

So I can file it with Silver, for the same reasons, then. Thanks.

 

[arj]

:yahoo:



Thank you for throwing some real science in on this. Now, I wonder if it is appropriate-to-audio science, or another "skin effect" thing?

no clue on that ! unless someone posts any detailed measurements.
I do understand that conductivity, geometry and dielectric would all have their combined effects, although how much can be heard in a system is not something i am very sure of as it would change from system to system and ear to ear.

 

[jai1611]

jls001 (or anyone?) Why oxygen free? I've been hearing this since ...forever, but never heard a reason except some dubious stuff about the copper not oxidising.

In industrial uses, oxygen free copper is used for higher purity levels rather than oxidisation properties.

I dont know if the green stuff copper forms is oxidisation or some other chemical process. IME, this happens to "oxygen-free" copper too if left bare.

 

[arj]

In industrial uses, oxygen free copper is used for higher purity levels rather than oxidisation properties.

I dont know if the green stuff copper forms is oxidisation or some other chemical process. IME, this happens to "oxygen-free" copper too if left bare.

thats right, that happens due to atmospheric oxygen in the exposed areas (hence better off to use a termination than bare wire)
As I had posted, oxygen in copper is added as part of its purification.