Footers, isolators, what works, when and why?

[mpw]

A related issue is the centre weight on a vinyl. I have often found the sound improving when the centre weight is removed. Maybe the weight, when placed, causes the record to press harder against the mat, resulting in the sound characteristics of the mat gaining prominence?

i urge you ( all ) to read this interview

reg center weights for TT and general concepts on stereo and reproduction of music

He is considered a living legend - Touraj Moghaddam of Roksan

Touraj Moghaddam: the man behind Roksan and Vertere talks turntables and cables

We speak to Touraj Moghaddam about Roksan Audio, Vertere Acoustics, and his hi-fi design philosophy

www.whathifi.com

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Has anyone tried to support a vinyl record only at the centre, leaving the rest of the record freely suspended? Thereby minimising damping by the mat.

 

[jls001]

Has anyone tried to support a vinyl record only at the centre, leaving the rest of the record freely suspended? Thereby minimising damping by the mat.

Records are not rigid enough to not need support. Even 180 gram ones. One can try different mats to tune the sound to one's liking (or at least closest to one's ideal).

 

[jls001]

A related issue is the centre weight on a vinyl. I have often found the sound improving when the centre weight is removed. Maybe the weight, when placed, causes the record to press harder against the mat, resulting in the sound characteristics of the mat gaining prominence?

Many prefer without center weight. Center weights do change the overall sonics.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Records are not rigid enough to not need support. Even 180 gram ones. One can try different mats to tune the sound to one's liking (or at least closest to one's ideal).

Josh, whether rigid enough or not, I tried it and it has worked exceptionally well for me. I used a clip type clamp which is about 5 mm tall, just about the size of my mat, on which rests the record, on which is placed a center weight for stability. Both the clamp and center weight are about 3 inches dia. So the record is sandwiched between the clamp and center weight. Sounds good with better focus, more space between instruments and better soundstage.

It doesn't cost anything to try.

 

[Sushant Sharma]

I think the band Beach Boys have been searching for "Good Vibrations" for a lot longer.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Good Only Knows! Wouldn't it be nice? But Don't worry Baby, I Get Around. In my Room I Hear Music.

 

[sudhirdamerla]

Well, at this rate we should be isolating the couch and our feet. Most of these examples they talk of in the west are for wood floor suspended houses and dry wall constructions. The place I was living in in Aus used had a floor so sensitive that people walking by in the corridor would upset my table. But in out concrete construction and modern vitrified tiles, I would hardly think they are an issue. We have two turntables on a granite top smack dab in the middle of two 10 inch woofer and were never able to upset it with the volume cracked way above comfortable listening volumes. But I do firmly believe that audio racks with feet are better than racks with "sides" as this will turn them into an instrument on their own. Half empty racks being the worst. I think our issue (India) would be being able to drop the noise floor levels by insulating from outside and reducing the reflections off the floor and glass in the listing area.

 

[essrand]

Inspired by this post. I tried an experiment this afternoon.

My tube amp comes with a vibrations isolation base called the VFS. With the amp it was free but if you try to buy it retail, it costs $2300.

I tried to A/B with and without the VFS. Maybe I heard a difference, maybe with the VFS the sound was a tad more natural and relaxed (less noise?), but it's a lot of maybes.

Later in the evening, I upgraded my speaker cable. The upgrade in the sound was undeniable (more resolution, clarity, speed, separation, new details not heard before etc).

So my conclusion was that perhaps isolation makes a difference, but it is just a tad, you really have to hear for it. Better to spend the money on upgrading cables, components etc. Once you are really done, maybe get some isolation, but the bang for the buck is really low.

Or maybe I don't have the ears for it, or my system is not resolving enough. Who knows?

 

[panditji]

Do you place the Nagra isolation platform on a rack or the floor?

 

[sidvee]

Or maybe I don't have the ears for it, or my system is not resolving enough. Who knows?

+1 Essrand - lot of bogus claims on footers/vibration isolation etc. I have gone through a lot of these without hearing any difference. IMO huge waste of money especially the higher end footers - like $2000 for a set etc. that are proliferating now - even from respected companies like Wilson Audio. The margin on these must be huge - hence they are marketed like crazy.

Wilson Audio | Pedestal

http://www.criticalmasssystems.com/productPages/CenterStage.html

To me a saying comes to mind "A fool and his money - are soon parted"

Cheers,
Sid

 

[essrand]

Do you place the Nagra isolation platform on a rack or the floor?

A wooden rack.

Some people say on the floor sounds better, but that's not feasible (this amp is too delicate); also I remember A/B-ing wooden rack vs floor. No discernible difference IMO.

 

[essrand]

+1 Essrand - lot of bogus claims on footers/vibration isolation etc. I have gone through a lot of these without hearing any difference. IMO huge waste of money especially the higher end footers - like $2000 for a set etc. that are proliferating now - even from respected companies like Wilson Audio. The margin on these must be huge - hence they are marketed like crazy.

Wilson Audio | Pedestal

http://www.criticalmasssystems.com/productPages/CenterStage.html

To me a saying comes to mind "A fool and his money - are soon parted"

Cheers,
Sid

The critical mass systems footer takes the cake. Apparently once you install it, sound is worse for 7 days and then it gets really really out of the world. How do you A/B something like that?

 

[sidvee]

The critical mass systems footer takes the cake. Apparently once you install it, sound is worse for 7 days and then it gets really really out of the world. How do you A/B something like that?

Yes this footer is heavily marketed by the owner of "What's Best" forum who also happens to be a dealer of those footers (no conflict of interest there "wink- wink"). What always amazes me is why would you buy a component worth $10,000 - $15,000 and then add footers/supports to it for another $1-$2k to make it sound better? I mean couldn't the manufacturer of the component - who probably has some excellent designers and testing equipment at his disposal figure this out. Why does a third party who probably is a one man show working out of his garage, make this so called magical footer which will transform a $10,000 piece of equipment? So much snake oil and BS, that it boggles my mind - especially at the price it is being sold. I dabble in footers/supports and find that they do help is some cases, but they certainly do not bring huge transformation like these mfrs. claim, and secondly I limit myself to the affordable range. There is also a ton of snake oil marketing in audio rack's - which is an entirely different discussion, but most of these so called footer manufacturers eventually graduate to manufacturing racks which sell for thousands of $ and take the marketing BS to the next level.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[firearm12]

I dont think there is any magical footer. But imo it matters where the component is placed. These days i prefer to experiment with only factory footers, experimenting with the base on which the component is kept.

They say everything matters. Some would also say God exists. Only thing that matters is do you believe or not.

SoundStage! Max dB - The Amplifier: Whats Inside? The Amplifier: Whats Inside? What Makes a Difference? Whats Overlooked? Part Three of Three (11/1998)

 

[AmK]

Am not associated with this company, but found some of the explanations they give to be interesting. Worth a read.

Symposium Acoustics: Technology

 

[sidvee]

I feel I need to make myself clearer - I do not disagree that vibration/resonances that are not the designers intent, are detrimental to any audio component's functioning. It is so in every field where electro/mechanical devices are used. What I object to is unsubstantiated claims and ridiculous pricing for said products that reduce/eliminate this.
I have footers/shelves under every component I own(https://www.hifivision.com/threads/back-to-tubes.12274/post-907902), however none of them went from being a "so-so" component to "Greatest/Giant Killer" by using those footers. Or maybe they did, but as Essrand quoted in his earlier post "maybe I don't have the ears for it, or my system is not resolving enough. Who knows?"
Cheers,
Sid

 

[SaurabhK]

Anyone tried IsoAccoustics or Stillpoints ?

 

[SaurabhK]

Josh, whether rigid enough or not, I tried it and it has worked exceptionally well for me. I used a clip type clamp which is about 5 mm tall, just about the size of my mat, on which rests the record, on which is placed a center weight for stability. Both the clamp and center weight are about 3 inches dia. So the record is sandwiched between the clamp and center weight. Sounds good with better focus, more space between instruments and better soundstage.

It doesn't cost anything to try.

I think with TT manufacture recommendations work best. Increased / decreased weight on clamp also needs VTA adjustment .. so will removal of mat etc . So differrnt brands of TT will work well in differrnt ways

 

[thedude]

IsoAcoustics ISO-pucks made a very noticeable improvement under nuprime monoblocks. Bass was much tighter (vs the stock feet) and felt as if that’s how it was supposed to sound like. It just made sense to me. The sound stage was more controlled and imaging was tighter.

I’m also using Gaia IIIs under ATC SCM40 and noticed similar results.

I have also noticed that the surface where you place the isolators effects the way they sound. Granite worked best for me.