Getting Stuff from US

Excellent. What does it prove? Your smartness and risk-taking capability? a corrupt and incompetent authority like Customs? Or, something nasty and stinking in the system itself? Or, ...???

Long live India and our institutions created for the good of the citizens.

P.S. Special thanks to that porter!

cheers.
murali

I am not here to prove anything or preach anything. I just posted my experience. u can take it r leave it.
 
Well for what i know that the customs do harass the travellers and i think it is less said the better.

Furthermore let it be the porter or several customs officers they do indulge in bribe taking, maybe down south it is the other better way around.

V.
 
Well for what i know that the customs do harass the travellers and i think it is less said the better.

Furthermore let it be the porter or several customs officers they do indulge in bribe taking, maybe down south it is the other better way around.

V.

Ha, from Mumbai to South. Why Customs?

A couple of decades ago, with Indian Airlines monopolising the Indian skies, I used to be a silent spectator (while travelling inside India on company businesses) at Mumbai airport, the hub of air travel in India those days. That was the time of the Gulf boom and you could see thousands from the south, mostly illiterate skilled workers, returning home on holidays after several years absence, WITH CONFIRMED TICKETS FOR TRAVEL FROM MUMBAI TO THEIR HOMES IN KERALA, KARNATAKA, TAMIL NADU ETC. You could watch the IA officials fleecing these guys exploiting their illiteracy and threatening that they had no seats and they were under "wait-list". The poor guys used to pay (under the counter) "extras", be it the 2-in-1 they were carrying or a Scotch or perfume, plus "hard earned cash".

You know the single biggest break ordinary people, be it north, south, east or west got in the last 10 years? Freeing up the skies and killing the myth that India was Mumbai.

Mumbai now-a-days is a much better place as a transit point with the best Customs behaviour whereas other places are still where Mumbai used to be. May be time will improve things.

A proper and effective democratic government's job is to implement systems and appropriate checks and balances to eliminate "opportunities for corruption". I didn't say it, but quote from Nelson Mandela.

cheers and bye.
murali
 
I think any enterprise in most cases which is run by government of India, is nothing short of bad, i do not look into anything which government has got to do, if there is alternative private enterprise available i will use their facilities be it the airline, banks, hotels, phones, stocks, mutual funds, etc.

The best part about the government is that they can catch us with errors, but when we catch them with their errors, to nail is a huge and near impossible task, take the case of finance ministry, exporters used to get some incentives after the shipment, now suddenly in recent times the ministry has woken up and is saying that these incentives which were given in the last 3 years or so, they need it back so all have to return those monies, imagine the pain involved to exporters. At the best government can do is that within 2 months the incentives will no more be available which is a simple and fair solution. The government has so much to benefit from exporters compared to what they benefit in customs yet the exporters are treated and harassed in a horrible way.

V

You know the single biggest break ordinary people, be it north, south, east or west got in the last 10 years? Freeing up the skies and killing the myth that India was Mumbai.

A proper and effective democratic government's job is to implement systems and appropriate checks and balances to eliminate "opportunities for corruption". I didn't say it, but quote from Nelson Mandela.
murali
 
There are always two sides to a coin and these thoughts and discussions will go on for ever.

I have had issues with the police, the IT department, customs and excise, and various other departments of the government.

With the Police, let me explain a situation I had a couple of years ago. While coming back from a movies I hit a motorised tricycle at 120kmph. My car was smashed and the tricycle was completely destroyed. The driver and the rider were both hospitalised. I called an ambulance, ensured that the two were taken to a hospital, and then called the police, filed a FIR, and surrendered my car. Next day I went to the hospital to ensure that these patients were getting the best of treatment. At the end of the day, I was slapped a fine and let go.

In another case, while avoiding a cyclist, I smashed into a oncoming car. We both went to the nearest police station and filed an FIR. A month later we were both called to the metropolitan court. Before getting in we were 'accosted' by the police and 'warned' of what all will happen inside the court. But, for the other driver and I, we had no issues and we wanted to see what really happened inside. When my name was called, I faced the magistrate. I yet remember the words. 'Are you Venkataraman', he asked. 'Yes sir', I replied. 'Did you hit car bearing number TSF 1425?', he asked. I started to say something but he warned me to just answer his question. When I replied in the positive, he fined me all of Rs.50 and let us both go. The other car owner and I came out shaking our heads.

When I was running a company of my own, I had imported $100,000 worth of testing equipment that was under customs bond. The company that had sent the equipment, in the meantime, started a branch of other own and wanted to take the equipment. Not knowing the rules, I handed over the equipment to them. I was immediately called by the Customs people who sent notices to both companies. I was asked to pay close to 150% of the value as duty. I took a week's time and went through all the rules in detail including STPI rules under which I had imported the equipment. When I showed my export credits and that I had nearly 1 million dollars worth of credit to my name, the customs people in turn took 15 days and said they are straightening things in their files. They fined the other company for impropriety and let me go completely.

When I was in Delhi, I was infamous in carrying accident victims to AIIMS on a regular basis. After endless arguments in the initial stages, both the hospital and the police just gave up and would applaud me on my social work.

I have faced the customs in Mumbai who demanded 100 US$ for absolutely nothing. I just refused to pay, and called a senior officer. The accusations and counter accusations went on for some time, and in the end, they just let me go.

What I am trying to say here is this. As long as we follow rules, there is nothing anyone can do to you. Yes, if you want to break the rules, you want to twist the rules, you want to take advantage of a situation, or if you are ignorant, there is a price to pay. I have seen businessmen sell their export credits to smugglers and other unscrupulous elements. Today, for example, you can get foreign exchange without any issues. The when do people sell FE in the black market, For the extra 25-50 paise you get? When you are unscrupulous and greedy yourself, you have to face the heat.

Cheers
 
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Well said.

Talking of accidents, appreciating your good manners and citizenship, do you know that in many countries I had been to, rules and laws are well defined and citizens follow them religiously? USA, Europe etc etc. It does not mean that we don't have rules and regulations but ignorance and interpretation, plus complete lack of civic mentality make them ineffective. When I drive my car, and an auto or 2-wheeler breaks the rule and gets hit, still it is my fault and the mob takes over, followed by police! Noone bothers about who was right or who was wrong. In other places, the first thing one looks into is who was driving within the rules and who broke the rules. It does not matter whether it is a big or rich man's vehicle vs the poor man's one as is interpreted by us. Everyone pays tax for the transport he or she uses and has the right to drive on roads within rules. What is this mentality leading to? The same Indian follows all rules when he or she is outside the country. As an old friend working in HR used to say, we people have two major attributes illustrated by the following: put a group of Indian crabs in an open bottle and you can sleep peacefully because each will try to see that another does not escape by pulling its feet; we keep our house and premises clean by throwing all our garbage into the neighbour's compound.

The less said about government departments the better. As I mentioned earlier, our lives will turn better only when the opportunities for corruption are thrashed out. Look at all that circus going on in the IPL business. We are talking of millions of dollars being swindled around by the so-called responsible and status people, whereas a poor guy who cannot read or write returning home on holidays after several years toiling it out, with some loving and innocuous gifts for his wife, children and relatives is skinned alive when he lands in one of our airports. He is not stealing anything from anywhere, he is not affecting another swadeshi business, he is not bringing in something to make a resale and more money. Several years ago, when I returned home under TR, I strictly followed the rules of bringing back one piece each of my used items like fridge, A/C etc and when I was waiting my turn at the Customs Inspection, it was bewildering to see several others dumping loads of equipment (brand new), getting cleared in seconds and loading on trucks. Does it not stink, this sort of multiple standards? Who are we kidding when we say that we have a well-oiled democratic and responsible machinery leading our country to paradise? It is money, my friend, that talks and rules, nothing else matters.

I saw a posting in this forum recently about someone wanting to sell a Audio Research Reference 3 preamp. He mentioned it as lightly used with a MRP of about US$10,000 for new and willing to discount 30-40%. I bought a similar one a few months back paying about US$7,000 for the demo piece (Reference 5 has now substituted 3), carried it home, declared the invoice and paid the nearly 40% duties, fines etc. If I plan to resell it after an year or two use, will I be mad enough to discount 30-40% of its MRP? Or, did I get my mathematics wrong? Just an example, nothing more meant.

Since venkatcr is from TN and I am sure he listens to old Tamil songs, may be we both should replay that great Kannadasan song of a Balachander movie (sung by SPB and in the movie, Kamalhaasan, sorry I forgot the movie name) based on unemployment in Delhi. Those words are still true, I believe.

I promise I won't write again.
cheers.
murali
 
Indeed when one breaks rules, etc one could fall in trouble but the core issue is when exporters are genuine and yet they have to go through a mess that too in hands of the finance ministry or for that matter with other government departments like income tax etc.

Among the other case being that exporters get incentives in form of customs drawback or import licences, they are supposed to clear the file let's say in a months time, but very often the delay is much larger, so this becomes a clear case of harassment and what not, so one has to bribe etc to get the refunds, as these are large amounts.

I personally think that it is not as easy as we think that if you are right nothing can be done to you by the government departments, there will be large cases where one has to bribe or keep pleading your case for long periods of time. At several times if we do not toe the government's ill ways than we have to go through the mental torture with their un-called notices and what not for months etc.

Finally i think the government is no less in breaking rules etc.

I am sure that the people who are into business, will understand these things much better.

V.


What I am trying to say here is this. As long as we follow rules, there is nothing anyone can do to you. Yes, if you want to break the rules, you want to twist the rules, you want to take advantage of a situation, or if you are ignorant, there is a price to pay. I have seen businessmen sell their export credits to smugglers and other unscrupulous elements. Today, for example, you can get foreign exchange without any issues. The when do people sell FE in the black market, For the extra 25-50 paise you get? When you are unscrupulous and greedy yourself, you have to face the heat.
Cheers
 
I suppose both Vinay and Murali are right.

I was more or less referring to our behaviour as ordinary citizens when we try to eke out a simple living. But yes, both of them are correct about one thing. Our governments, whether state or central, does not even deliver our basic needs without hassle. Whether you want gas, electricity, water or so many other facilities, you have take effort to get that. But I suppose that is the curse we have to live with for having such a large and stupidly growing population.

When the demand is high and supply is less, even for services, there is price to pay.

Cheers
 
Hi,

No country became systematic and their citizens filled with civic sense over night....France, USA, GB have a history of political and administrative thinkers......and revolutions have happened there...they have seen 2 devastating world wars....thats how they got so matured today as nations..

our country was mauled, raped and dominated by various external aggressors starting from Arabs to Europeans...due to which certain attitude has developed among Indians...our mentality was dented left, right and center and resultant is "me first" attitude..a dog's attitude...this has developed post independence of India in a great measurement...which actually invited many problems starting from traffic rule violations...to bribing...to God knows what...

..bribing was at its heights during British rule...Robert Clive was the most corrupt brit then....brits have nicely instilled bribery into Indian civil services which slowly was inherited to our Govt System...in a way they wanted a channel to exploit this country even after they leave..so that we will dance according to their tunes whenever required by them brits...bribery in India today has its roots there...so its a habit of few babus in Govt to use their authority for their monetary gains....and we as a citizens got accustomed with it....to list out..I have both bitter and pleasant experiences with Govt functionaries...but not all are bad...its few rotten mangoes which bring foul smell to all...

most people who go abroad and come back will feel the difference and say "you know US..UK..Ozz...ohh wowww"....but the thing they conveniently forget is that they got their passports through an agent paying thousands of rupees before they left this country...{now lets not fight over "me didn't do" stuff here...}

Boss....if one can write 100 pages good about India ....there shall be another to claim 101 pages bad about India without knowing the history and background info....what we have to understand is that this is an evolutionary process...compare every decade between the years 1947 and 2007...w.r.t India....you'll see a rise in almost all fields..be it literacy, economy..etc.

We just have to accept the fact that...change will be slow...and move on with good spirit and hope.


Sorry for baking everyone's head here..I didn't mean to offend anyone..

bottom line is

Yatha Praja Tatha Raja

and vice versa

Contemporarily, Citizen and the Govt System are complimentary to each other.
It is an evolutionary process to become a developed country....

so lets have patience..lets try to be truthful and rightful when its our turn...thats how change starts

Peace:)
Venkat

P.S. Apologies to OP for contributing to the derailment of this thread but couldn't stop myself pulling up 2 cents over the topic..
 
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Thanks to Venkat, Venkus and Prem for their insights.

The other reason corruption is so rampant is the exceedingly low pay and funds available to constables and lowly officials when prices in cities and towns are sky-rocketing every decade. Think of the person with sons and daughters who cant expect a decent raise or promotion every couple of years and who is doomed to live in a run down house in filthy shabby surroundings for the next few decades. And the fact that money spent by government does not trickle down to the ground level? Also the example of crores spent on project tiger, but the salaries of forest staff, under-staffing of forest guards resulting in failure, or the actual improvement in conditions of cops post 26/11, who wore old motorcycle helmets and carried lathis?.

When I grew up I spent most of my time inside a Naval command campus. Every corner, and almost every shrub was neatly maintained like in a foreign country. Many of my classmates were the children of low ranking sailors in the Navy besides other civilian staff members. Trust me when I say this, being poor does not pinch at all if ones surroundings and infrastructure is neat and maintained, when you still have a well developed auditorium for community events in the locality, large open spaces and playgrounds for children and 24/7 water and electricity. Contrast with the hell that is modern India and you have a million desperate people who want to break free from the absolute Hell that are their living conditions - with limited water supply only for a few hours and no electricity for half the day where summers peak at 45 Celsius!! This is to a great extent responsible for the desperation with which people are corrupt!!There is no chance for peace in daily life for a poor person such that he can convince himself that it is all right if he earns a very modest income, but he will stay morally upright, living a simple life participating in local community events! Plan your childs future and the specter of huge donations (colleges owned by politicians) in return for a worthless education looms on the horizon.

I say this extensive land grabbing by real-estate mafia, overcrowding by commercial establishments, lack of water and public infrastructure is contributing towards making people choose a corrupt alternative and in sheer desperation!! Everything about common life India conspires against you when it comes to making a decent life decision.

Just my chaar annas

Regards
 
Gobble, although what you say may be partly true, greed and wanting to live beyond one's means is the main reason for such rampant corruption or how would you explain the existence of corrupt officials at the top who are already well paid. The situation of a customs official for instance is not so desparate as he is guaranteed of a perfectly decent standard of living, although in the case of a constable it may be understandable and pardonable to an extent.

We know of many top officials who are already rich enough but yet are corrupt. So, wanting to get rich is an even more important factor for corruption than wanting to overcome poverty.
 
Gobble, although what you say may be partly true, greed and wanting to live beyond one's means is the main reason for such rampant corruption or how would you explain the existence of corrupt officials at the top who are already well paid. The situation of a customs official for instance is not so desparate as he is guaranteed of a perfectly decent standard of living, although in the case of a constable it may be understandable and pardonable to an extent.

We know of many top officials who are already rich enough but yet are corrupt. So, wanting to get rich is an even more important factor for corruption than wanting to overcome poverty.

True. The reality has to be seen like the light split by a prism. You are the blind man feeling the trunk of the elephant, I was the blind man feeling the tail .. :)

cheers
 
Govt salaries are always behind private/self employed ones in any nation....its the attitude of the Leadership, Govt Servants and Citizens which shape a nation's fate. now who is strong here? ;)
 
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