Golden ears or Golden Brain ?

[Gerry_the_Merry]

Alan Shaw, owner of Harbeth has this to say

"This question of 'what is best' cannot be answered scientifically because there are so many variables, including where the microphones were positioned, the shape of your outer ear etc. etc. etc.. I have already stated in my previous post here, stereo imaging is an illusion. It is entirely a construct inside your own brain. Your brain (somehow) builds a mental model by mapping the sound that you hear over your speakers via your two ears to those that you have previously experienced in real. All this exposure is knitted together into a sonic model that allows you to imagine in your head how performers were arranged in 3D space at the recording venue. But the person sitting next to you may have a radically different mental model. Wives, for example, frequently cannot understand or appreciate their husbands fascination with hi-fi - they are entirely happy with the kitchen radio. This is because they have a very different mental model of how music sounds.

Your brain creates a sonic database before birth and refines it throughout your life according to your sonic experiences, the concerts you have attended, the types of instruments you have heard, different acoustic environments etc.. If you have never been to a live concert, never heard a live instrument but only been exposed to sound via a cheap radio you would have a very different mental sound database to draw experience from. Conversely, if you are a professional musician living and working with your instrument, you may find it impossible to listen to hifi sound. Many professional musicians seem perfectly satisfied with very modest low-fi audio equipment at home."

So all ye brainy guys looking to save money... just imagine you are getting better sound and avoid listening to better systems...that is all!!

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...Soundstage-Depth-and-Width-Change-with-Toe-in

 

[bhagwan]

In concurrence with the above, I would like to add;

The Sound that one gets from an audio set up [full chain - source to speaker] is also dependent on the speaker position in the room.
Where the speaker is placed - distance from walls & ceiling.
Material of the room - treatment of the surfaces - etc. etc.
All these parameters + speaker position [optimal bass response] & then toe in or out will determine what the final sound of a given speaker with the entire chain is like in a listener's room.

Therefore I have always maintained that the final sound of loudspeaker [audio chain] is very much dependent on the 'conductor' i.e. your self or your audio dealer / installer.
No matter how good the gear is - if it is not set up well, the final result will never be 'optimized'
Then the Brain has to take over & start to play games with you - so that you are 'satisfied' with the money that you have spent.:sad:

G.T.M. nice link - thanks for sharing.

Spend on the room - time & money - only way to make your speakers truly 'sing' !

 

[nshankar]

The 'full chain' in the above post may be better defined as wall socket to ear. Everything encompassed will affect sound.

 

[Naturelover]

The 'full chain' in the above post may be better defined as wall socket to ear. Everything encompassed will affect sound.

Maybe that should extend from the main breaker (or even further back) to the (Golden) brain.

 

[asliarun]

In concurrence with the above, I would like to add;

The Sound that one gets from an audio set up [full chain - source to speaker] is also dependent on the speaker position in the room.
Where the speaker is placed - distance from walls & ceiling.
Material of the room - treatment of the surfaces - etc. etc.
All these parameters + speaker position [optimal bass response] & then toe in or out will determine what the final sound of a given speaker with the entire chain is like in a listener's room.

Therefore I have always maintained that the final sound of loudspeaker [audio chain] is very much dependent on the 'conductor' i.e. your self or your audio dealer / installer.
No matter how good the gear is - if it is not set up well, the final result will never be 'optimized'
Then the Brain has to take over & start to play games with you - so that you are 'satisfied' with the money that you have spent.:sad:

G.T.M. nice link - thanks for sharing.

Spend on the room - time & money - only way to make your speakers truly 'sing' !

It is further complicated in many situations because many times, it is just not practically possible to place the speakers where they really should be (even if we know where to put them).

Makes one think that there's a strong case for headphones.

And on a side note, I wonder if anyone has ever done an A/B comparison between a quality headphone setup and a quality speaker setup.

 

[bhagwan]

It is further complicated in many situations because many times, it is just not practically possible to place the speakers where they really should be (even if we know where to put them).

Makes one think that there's a strong case for headphones.

And on a side note, I wonder if anyone has ever done an A/B comparison between a quality headphone setup and a quality speaker setup.

Sir,
There are 3 different topics you have touched on;
a]
Speakers & their placement.
b]
Headphones.
c]
Headphones & Speaker Comparison.

a]
Speakers Need SPACE.
They will only play well - when they are given the right environment & placed appropriately & have ample space to breath - back & side walls.

b]
Headphones are a FREE RIDE HOME.
Rs. 25/- K spent on a headphone will give to you 90 % ++ Fadelity.
Resolution etc.
If a person likes 'headphone representation' then it is a free ride home.

c]
Cannot compare.
In a Headphone [H] set up there is no depth of stage - no layering etc.
In a Speaker set up - there are several audio parameters [fake they may be] - illusion etc. but they make audio fun.
Bass in H is 'deep & fast' but is never 'felt'
Bass in S is 'felt' in your stomach & pants flap etc.
Image Height in H does not exist - all is in your head - around your head etc.
Image Height in S is very much present.

There are a few more points - I will let other FM's chime in.

I personally could never warm up to H - but if one can appreciate a good H set up - it is a 'VFM Ride' to 'Audio Nirvana' !!
:licklips:

Super High on Resolution.
Low Distortion
No X-Over
etc. etc.
Technically it is a perfect audio solution.....

 

[bhagwan]

The 'full chain' in the above post may be better defined as wall socket to ear. Everything encompassed will affect sound.

Maybe that should extend from the main breaker (or even further back) to the (Golden) brain.

Gentleman on a serious note - it is like talking about the wight of a shoe & the length of a spike - this is when we are discussing sprint runners.
Those parameters [weight & spikes] will only come into play & will make a difference in the final result of a sprinters time when he is already a quality runner - say under 10.5 seconds for 100m - this is just to sight a 'silly' example'
However, on the audio front - there will be a bigger change in the sound that any person hears when the speaker is placed 6" from the rear wall as compared to 4 feet from the rear wall & regardless of what is there in the part before the source [cd or any other] or after the speaker.
This change in speaker placement will have a larger impact on the sound & over all result viz - a - viz any other change that may be made.

The Cable / Circuit Breaker / Issolation Device etc. etc. will all come into play to fine tune a set up that is already performing at optimum level.....

The Spokes & Shoe weight will affect a sprinter that runs @ 10.5S & lower - if you and I [assuming that you are NOT a SPRINTER] was a shoe tha U Bolt wears - it may not affect our 100M sprint time....

Sorry for going OT - this is a good topic that G.T.M. has initiated & may be a serious point of discussion with regards to stereo imaging & speaker placement & toe in etc. etc.

Thank You for maintaining decorum on the discussion !

 

[arj]

I personally could never warm up to H - but if one can appreciate a good H set up - it is a 'VFM Ride' to 'Audio Nirvana' !!
:licklips:

Super High on Resolution.

Amen to the above. I personally could never warm up to headphones since voices in and around my head creep me out..but i do envy folks who can enjoy music this way as they are able to get the room out of the equation ..High Q at a much lower price !!

 

[Staxxx]

The part which really confuses me and in turn frustrates me is that fact that I am very happy listening to music on my set up, the way it is currently positioned and set - but I still am in the process of spending a not inconsiderable money on some tweaks that will change it.
I tried this morning to imagine what a "better" sound may sound like - in the context of an audio system and failed....and yet I want to tweak!
It may be a mental illness as much as a mental construct!

 

[nshankar]

Bhagwan Sir,

Could we arrange all factors affecting sound in a typical setup in the decreasing order of magnitude of effect on sound ? I have started a bare minimum list that can be expanded by all...

1. Room acoustics
2. Positioning of Speakers
3. Type of speakers
4. Speaker cable
5. Amplifier
6. Interconnects
7. Sources
8. Power supply cable
9. Power conditioner
etc

Once done, it can be a ready reckoner for all FMs. Thanks.

 

[Staxxx]

@nshankar: I believe although one can list all the factors that may affect sound, there is no way in this wide audiophile world of ours that people will agree on the order of importance.
Also to be clear are you referring to soundstage and imaging or timbre etc as the ordering of the factors can be different for each facet of "sound". I think it may be hard to group everything under one category "sound".
I do however really agree with the room (in your list) being the most impactful in general.

 

[bhagwan]

Bhagwan Sir,

Could we arrange all factors affecting sound in a typical setup in the decreasing order of magnitude of effect on sound ? I have started a bare minimum list that can be expanded by all...

1. Room acoustics
2. Positioning of Speakers
3. Type of speakers
4. Speaker cable
5. Amplifier
6. Interconnects
7. Sources
8. Power supply cable
9. Power conditioner
etc

Once done, it can be a ready reckoner for all FMs. Thanks.

Technically speaking there is no answer to your question;
Yet, I shall indulge you - I will try and put some things down - only from the list that you mentioned - what is most to what is least - all FM's may pardon me for this - but I am trying to answer a question that has been raised....

1.
3.
7.
2.
5.
4 / 6 / 8 all @ same level.
9 - I do not believe in.

imho - the room is the first & final frontier.
Get the Room Right & 50 % of your battle is won - very difficult to make a speaker sound bad in a 'good room' !!

You can have a great set up - on paper & if the room is not up to the mark - the set up will just not play right....
But if you have a good room - most speakers will sound great in it...

I strongly suggest - first spend on the room & then on the gear.
The Room does not change - the audio gear can be purchased & sold.
Get the room right & a lot of good things [in audio] will happen for you;;

 

[arj]

Bhagwan Sir,

Could we arrange all factors affecting sound in a typical setup in the decreasing order of magnitude of effect on sound ? I have started a bare minimum list that can be expanded by all...

1. Room acoustics
2. Positioning of Speakers
3. Type of speakers
4. Speaker cable
5. Amplifier
6. Interconnects
7. Sources
8. Power supply cable
9. Power conditioner
etc

Once done, it can be a ready reckoner for all FMs. Thanks.

This is a good idea to discuss and put as a ready reckoner !

Although I believe we cannot really separate the Room/Speaker/Amp. while they are individually important, their synergy is even more so !
Hence Room - Speaker and Speaker- Amp Synergy more important than the individual room/speaker and amp.

 

[bhagwan]

This is a good idea to discuss !

Hence Room - Speaker and Speaker- Amp Synergy more important than the individual room/speaker and amp.

100 % agree with you;

But a good room will work with any speaker / amp combination - imho

If you have a good speaker & amp combination & place it in a 'average to poor' room - no matter what the synergy exists between the speaker & amplifier - it just will not sound right....

Good Room is most important - rest all can be purchased / sold etc. to get the best sound in that given room....

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

This is how a room could be - I like the idea / concept.

 

[Staxxx]

I too am in general agreement with Bhagwan's ordering of the list.
One thing to mention is that a poor recording will always sound poor. Of course we are discussing with a given that the recording is good, but it is often hard to accept that when we listen to our systems that you can only get out what has been put in.

 

[bhagwan]

I too am in general agreement with Bhagwan's ordering of the list.
One thing to mention is that a poor recording will always sound poor. Of course we are discussing with a given that the recording is good, but it is often hard to accept that when we listen to our systems that you can only get out what has been put in.

Correct;
Most CD's I have make 'excellent' coasters [just kiddin]
90 % of the CD's I have are Poor Recordings.
5 % are Average & Acceptable Recordings.
3 % are Good Recordings.
2 % is Excellent - Reference Material.

Now, within that 2 % it is still more difficult to get a musically well played piece that is recorded well....

You can listen to a lot of music on any set up - but to listen to a good performance that has been well recorded is a 'treat' ! This is a very rare occurrence; :licklips:

 

[asliarun]

A few questions to the experienced members:

a. When you refer to "source", do you mean quality of recording? I've also seen that even in the CD era, so many CDs are so poorly recorded. It is actually quite appalling!

b. In addition to recording quality, how much importance would you give to the DAC? I'm assuming PC playback.

c. What is your opinion on "type of speaker"? I know this is a very complicated answer and not really looking for an answer but for thoughts, opinions etc. I'm trying to understand the importance of the brand vs type of speaker (bookshelf vs tower, and bass reflex vs TL vs horn vs single driver) vs "how well it fits with the chain or even with the room". Again, not looking for a formula, just your preferences.

 

[greenhorn]

for people who are going further into the rabbit hole, something I posted a while back.
http://www.hifivision.com/music/41573-high-fidelity-just-means-end.html

 

[bhagwan]

a. When you refer to "source", do you mean quality of recording? I've also seen that even in the CD era, so many CDs are so poorly recorded. It is actually quite appalling!

I shall try and address the question you have raised in parts;
Here I will address [a]

Music I refer to as 'software'
It could be CD / Wave / Vinyl - any.
CD as in what we use in a CD Player.
Wave as in what is ripped & played off a PC - Mac or Windows based.
Vinyl is what we play in a Record Player.

When I write about 'source' I am talking about the CD Player / PC / DAC / Turn Table [Record Player] / Phono Stage / Arm / Cartridge etc. etc.

Music is Software & it is an entirely different thing - I have addressed it in Point [post] # 16 - as stated above..

 

[bhagwan]

b. In addition to recording quality, how much importance would you give to the DAC? I'm assuming PC playback.

Here - it is as important as any other source component.
The Computer + Play Back Software + Config + DAC is all important.
If you are playing the PC Game.

Just like in a TT Set up.
The Table / Cartridge / Tone Arm / Phono Stage / Tone Arm Cable etc. All constitute the Analogue Front End.

In a CD Playback - Transport / Clock / DAC / Upsampler etc. all constitute a Digital Front End - so it is full result that is important.

All the individual components need to play together as 1.
Each has to add to the others attributes & the end result has to be +ve.