Height speakers on wall?

k-pad

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Hi all,
Of course, I must apologise first up for starting yet another thread.
I am this person:

Was thinking of a 7-8 feet from screen set up, but as good as the sound is, when the TV and speakers came, I realised am unwilling to give up on the immersion of say 5 feet from a 65-inch screen.

FM @RajithKumar was the first to point out the flaw in my plan - the heights just don't make sense.

Here is what I had in mind originally:

Will draw up a plan and share, but if anyone has used Alteco-type speakers as height speakers, would be much grateful if you could share your feedback.
Thanks and regards
And terribly, terribly sorry for the bother.
Regards
 

RajithKumar

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Hi all,
Of course, I must apologise first up for starting yet another thread.
I am this person:

Was thinking of a 7-8 feet from screen set up, but as good as the sound is, when the TV and speakers came, I realised am unwilling to give up on the immersion of say 5 feet from a 65-inch screen.

FM @RajithKumar was the first to point out the flaw in my plan - the heights just don't make sense.

Here is what I had in mind originally:

Will draw up a plan and share, but if anyone has used Alteco-type speakers as height speakers, would be much grateful if you could share your feedback.
Thanks and regards
And terribly, terribly sorry for the bother.
Regards
Self is using Alteco speakers for Front & Rear heights. ( Since I have planned for Auro3d as well with Atmos & dts X - I have opted for Unified speakers layout to play all 3d formats). Dali Alteco is very good one for the price point.It is used as heights for all Dali range speakers .
There are other brands too in case if you wish to explore . Emotiva Airmotiv A1 speakers ,SVS ellevation and Xtz cinema S2 speakers,Sonodyne sonus 3540 which are mainly designed for heights purpose.Check it too based on your budget .
Alternatively you can also mount a Bookshelf speakers with tiltable brackets to aim to your listening position.
Hope it clarifies.
 

k-pad

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Self is using Alteco speakers for Front & Rear heights. ( Since I have planned for Auro3d as well with Atmos & dts X - I have opted for Unified speakers layout to play all 3d formats). Dali Alteco is very good one for the price point.It is used as heights for all Dali range speakers .
That's lovely. Could you share some pix so I'll know where to mount them?
There are other brands too in case if you wish to explore . Emotiva Airmotiv A1 speakers ,SVS ellevation and Xtz cinema S2 speakers,Sonodyne sonus 3540 which are mainly designed for heights purpose.Check it too based on your budget .
Will check them out, bhai. Thanks.
Alternatively you can also mount a Bookshelf speakers with tiltable brackets to aim to your listening position.
No bookshelves for me, unfortunately. But if it has to be bookshelves, it will have to be the radius 90 or 45s....
 

sl4y3r

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Hey OP, as you know I've recently moved to a new place, I have wall mounted my rear heights on the wall and angled them to MLP. I was trying our different configurations on the AVR (primarily, rear height and top middle, back and front height) and what I noticed is, they don't engaged/play a lot when set to rear height. Using my Pioneer AVR app, I muted all speakers except the Atmos ones and played the official Dolby Atmos demos over and over again in different AVR configs, and the rear height did not have much action. (Perhaps a DTS X demo would have been better, but since DTS X content is far less, it may not be worth it) just something to keep in mind.
 

k-pad

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Hey OP, as you know I've recently moved to a new place, I have wall mounted my rear heights on the wall and angled them to MLP. I was trying our different configurations on the AVR (primarily, rear height and top middle, back and front height) and what I noticed is, they don't engaged/play a lot when set to rear height. Using my Pioneer AVR app, I muted all speakers except the Atmos ones and played the official Dolby Atmos demos over and over again in different AVR configs, and the rear height did not have much action. (Perhaps a DTS X demo would have been better, but since DTS X content is far less, it may not be worth it) just something to keep in mind.
That's crazy!
So, there is not much content with atmos/heights, and then making the speakers work is a problem too?!
 

sl4y3r

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That's crazy!
So, there is not much content with atmos/heights, and then making the speakers work is a problem too?!
Yes, quiet frankly.

I was super excited to get a Dolby Atmos setup since it became available for home audio, but when I got it last year, it's disappointing to see that studios don't invest much into mixing. The demos are great and a few movies do a good and consistent job on Atmos effects during a 2 hour movie. But for many movies, Atmos speakers engage in very few and far between scenes.

I watched Monster hunter last night and it's a very nice movie for Atmos demos (story and acting is debatable). Midway has a nice Atmos track too.
 

k-pad

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Yes, quiet frankly.

I was super excited to get a Dolby Atmos setup since it became available for home audio, but when I got it last year, it's disappointing to see that studios don't invest much into mixing. The demos are great and a few movies do a good and consistent job on Atmos effects during a 2 hour movie. But for many movies, Atmos speakers engage in very few and far between scenes.

I watched Monster hunter last night and it's a very nice movie for Atmos demos (story and acting is debatable). Midway has a nice Atmos track too.
That's something, bro.
Will defo keep this in mind.
And I should really thank you for speaking this.
Not many do once invested.
Truly grateful.
 

imagineer

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That's something, bro.
Will defo keep this in mind.
And I should really thank you for speaking this.
Not many do once invested.
Truly grateful.
You might want to spend some time going through this discussion between Gene and Patrick:
Edit typo: *Patrick adds more even more issues about content available to end users to what @sl4y3r already mentioned above.
Studios have different tracks for cinemas and entirely different tracks for Blurays etc which are made available to end users.
This was the primary reason, I went for Auro 3D capable AVR instead of atmos only AVR.

After all, we don't buy this gear to watch specifically designed demos, do we?
It is the movie / concert recordings which should have all this!
 

RajithKumar

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That's lovely. Could you share some pix so I'll know where to mount them?

Will check them out, bhai. Thanks.

No bookshelves for me, unfortunately. But if it has to be bookshelves, it will have to be the radius 90 or 45s....
U can check it in my below thread .

 

rshri

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@k-pad Have you considered that, for small rooms, for on-wall heights to point to your ears, the downfiring angle will have to be larger than what's being offered by speakers like Dali Alteco?
 

sl4y3r

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You might want to spend some time going through this discussion between Gene and Patrick:
Edit typo: *Patrick adds more even more issues about content available to end users to what @sl4y3r already mentioned above.
Studios have different tracks for cinemas and entirely different tracks for Blurays etc which are made available to end users.
This was the primary reason, I went for Auro 3D capable AVR instead of atmos only AVR.

After all, we don't buy this gear to watch specifically designed demos, do we?
It is the movie / concert recordings which should have all this!
This video is brilliant, thanks for sharing, hadn't seen it before. Gene (and his guests) always are a pleasure to listen to. All the myths they debunk and snake-oil they call companies out on.

But this video, from the wife not being happy with ceiling speakers to the muting of all ground speakers to the whole 2 hour movie having a total 2 mins of height effects REALLY resonates with my personal experience.

PS - Mad Max has always been the 'go-to' for Atmos, and while i cannot deny the mixing is great, i have done the muting of all speakers except Atmos speakers activity on this movie too.. and yes intro scene is nice (not great, imo) people also say that 2nd or 3rd chapter vehicle chase is great for an Atmos demo, I have not had the same experience with, i found the heights pretty much dead. If someone has turned off all speakers and can say otherwise, in which case, maybe i got the chapters mixed up then and I would be happy to re-test basis the timestamp you provide. And i would like people to do this activity with all but height speakers muted and not mention they perceive height effects, sometimes the non-height channels do a very good job of emulating height effects that can make us say a mix has good "height" effects. So, if that's what you are hearing and saying it has "great Atmos effects", then that's defeating the whole purpose of having dedicated height speakers.
 
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rshri

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When the atmos speaker track is so less and sparse within a movie, I wonder whether we really need a put up a pair for this. There may hardly be any perceptible difference between left and right tracks of height speakers. One can get away by temporarily adding only one height speaker in the middle for this (connected either with left or right height channel)
 

ankitbhargava

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Yes, quiet frankly.

I was super excited to get a Dolby Atmos setup since it became available for home audio, but when I got it last year, it's disappointing to see that studios don't invest much into mixing. The demos are great and a few movies do a good and consistent job on Atmos effects during a 2 hour movie. But for many movies, Atmos speakers engage in very few and far between scenes.

I watched Monster hunter last night and it's a very nice movie for Atmos demos (story and acting is debatable). Midway has a nice Atmos track too.
Did this testing between
Front height + Top Middle
Top Front + Top Rear

I realised the Top Rear doesn't get much of a content
(for example extension of bomb explosions and not actual explosion, bit of thunders and rain and not actual thunder and rain)

I am sticking to Front height + Top middle for my setup until I get the Pre-Pro to support 7.2.6

Even for Panning effects it worked better
 

ankitbhargava

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This video is brilliant, thanks for sharing, hadn't seen it before. Gene (and his guests) always are a pleasure to listen to. All the myths they debunk and snake-oil they call companies out on.

But this video, from the wife not being happy with ceiling speakers to the muting of all ground speakers to the whole 2 hour movie having a total 2 mins of height effects REALLY resonates with my personal experience.

PS - Mad Max has always been the 'go-to' for Atmos, and while i cannot deny the mixing is great, i have done the muting of all speakers except Atmos speakers activity on this movie too.. and yes intro scene is nice (not great, imo) people also say that 2nd or 3rd chapter vehicle chase is great for an Atmos demo, I have not had the same experience with, i found the heights pretty much dead. If someone has turned off all speakers and can say otherwise, in which case, maybe i got the chapters mixed up then and I would be happy to re-test basis the timestamp you provide. And i would like people to do this activity with all but height speakers muted and not mention they perceive height effects, sometimes the non-height channels do a very good job of emulating height effects that can make us say a mix has good "height" effects. So, if that's what you are hearing and saying it has "great Atmos effects", then that's defeating the whole purpose of having dedicated height speakers.
There is lot of engagement of Top Middle speakers in my setup giving a better immersion.
Directional sounds in a Movie immediately bring the smiles to say yes I invested in right thing.

Still remember the scene from "Finch" on Apple TV where they are chased by other vehicle and they hide under a Bridge.
When the other vehicle pass over them, that actually panned from Left Surround>Left Top Middle> Right Top Middle> Right Surround ... felt very very real.

Instances like those may not be many in very good Atmos Movies but whenever they are, they bring smile :)
 

k-pad

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@k-pad Have you considered that, for small rooms, for on-wall heights to point to your ears, the downfiring angle will have to be larger than what's being offered by speakers like Dali Alteco?
Would that be the case?
Will check
 

k-pad

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There is lot of engagement of Top Middle speakers in my setup giving a better immersion.
Directional sounds in a Movie immediately bring the smiles to say yes I invested in right thing.

Still remember the scene from "Finch" on Apple TV where they are chased by other vehicle and they hide under a Bridge.
When the other vehicle pass over them, that actually panned from Left Surround>Left Top Middle> Right Top Middle> Right Surround ... felt very very real.

Instances like those may not be many in very good Atmos Movies but whenever they are, they bring smile :)
.2 is definitely doable overhead.

Breaking head to see if .4 is possible at all :(

Else will have to go one pair overhead and one pair on wall
 

imagineer

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.2 is definitely doable overhead.

Breaking head to see if .4 is possible at all :(

Else will have to go one pair overhead and one pair on wall
I saw your sitting position in other thread, I believe it's adjacent / sticking to back wall(correct me, if I'm wrong).
Here is, what I think will be right ; other VFMs and you can correct / chime in to give better suggestions.
My suggestion:
Add overhead speakers instead of on wall speakers on the back wall. Configure them as rear heights.
Don't miss the front heights / on wall speakers. No need to angle them (Some patent/royalty issue in DD vs Auro hence, DD suggests different angles and designs, apparently).
Now, top middle part:
The place which can have 5.1, can definitely have 5.1.4 (front and rear heights). If you are already spending that much efforts and money, you can have 5.1.6. The added two are top middles, L and R. If, your gear supports auro as well: buy a RCA splitter, provide it to those top middles whenever you desire. Manual, intervention and profile change might be required.
 

k-pad

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Self is using Alteco speakers for Front & Rear heights.
Alternatively you can also mount a Bookshelf speakers with tiltable brackets to aim to your listening position.
Hope it clarifies.
I think on-wall heights and overheads on another side could work in my room.
The Altecos are definitely an option, Rajith bhai...
Hey OP, as you know I've recently moved to a new place, I have wall mounted my rear heights on the wall and angled them to MLP. I was trying our different configurations on the AVR (primarily, rear height and top middle, back and front height) and what I noticed is, they don't engaged/play a lot when set to rear height. Using my Pioneer AVR app, I muted all speakers except the Atmos ones and played the official Dolby Atmos demos over and over again in different AVR configs, and the rear height did not have much action. (Perhaps a DTS X demo would have been better, but since DTS X content is far less, it may not be worth it) just something to keep in mind.
Thank you so much, bro, for the input.
you have .2, .4 or .6?
I may have to go with, as i said above, with one pair of overheads and one pair of on wall heights if i want .4.

Did this testing between
Front height + Top Middle
Top Front + Top Rear

I realised the Top Rear doesn't get much of a content
(for example extension of bomb explosions and not actual explosion, bit of thunders and rain and not actual thunder and rain)

I am sticking to Front height + Top middle for my setup until I get the Pre-Pro to support 7.2.6

Even for Panning effects it worked better
Ankit, this is the most detailed explanation I have come across so far about the experience vis-a-vis placement. Thank you so much.
I might have to choose between just a .2 middle or a mix-match to attain .4...
The pig remains inside the head only :D

I saw your sitting position in other thread, I believe it's adjacent / sticking to back wall(correct me, if I'm wrong).
Not bro. I can do either a 5 feet or a 7 feet MLP in a 12 feet room.
These two MLPs are really working well in the mock up. I love the immersion of 5 feet to a 65" screen. But don't mind pulling back 7 feet.
All other positions are out of the question...

Here is, what I think will be right ; other VFMs and you can correct / chime in to give better suggestions.
My suggestion:
Add overhead speakers instead of on wall speakers on the back wall. Configure them as rear heights.
Don't miss the front heights / on wall speakers. No need to angle them (Some patent/royalty issue in DD vs Auro hence, DD suggests different angles and designs, apparently).
Now, top middle part:
The place which can have 5.1, can definitely have 5.1.4 (front and rear heights). If you are already spending that much efforts and money, you can have 5.1.6. The added two are top middles, L and R.
Have attached space below.
I doubt I can do 6 height speakers...
Do take a look and let me know what could work in this space best.
If, your gear supports auro as well: buy a RCA splitter, provide it to those top middles whenever you desire. Manual, intervention and profile change might be required.
Unfortunately not. I have a 3700 and not the 4700 :(



Also, in general, from what I have heard here, Atmos content is sparse, but worth it. Taking a punt in that they will become more available in the months to come.
So,
1. Would really like to have some kind of height config.
2. If .4 is doable, nothing like it.
3. .2 is very doable, but .6 is really stretching it, and would not want to get into it...

Thanks and regards
 

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sl4y3r

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Thank you so much, bro, for the input.
you have .2, .4 or .6?
I may have to go with, as i said above, with one pair of overheads and one pair of on wall heights if i want .4.
I have .4, 2 on the back wall angled in an almost downward direction pointing to the MLP, 2 on the ceiling, but again angled to the MLP, I have satellites. AVR set to front top and rear top. I'm planning on doing some adjustments this weekend to bring my front top a bit more ahead of my MLP to allow better seperation.
 
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