Help me choose the best 'natural sounding' speaker for orchestral classical...

[Asit]

Re: My take on the 640C

@Asit Da: Does my description of the 640C mirror yours?

It very much does, Trinanjan. However, I'd like to say this to all 640c owners/lovers (i Know there are many): does it really matter what Trinanjan or I say about this? These are our personal impressions, and of course subjective to some extent. I was always very happy with whatever I had. The music is always more important.

Regards.

 

[neo]

@ Dr. Bass. Man you must have some concentration & patience to audition for 9 hrs X 5 days. I wouldve had withdrawal symptoms.
Wouldve been nice to know your impressions of the set up us youve auditioned & your method of auditioning so many set-ups at one go. Though its asking for too much. I wouldve not been able to note down the nos of speakers as youve.
Thanks again.
Cheers.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Consequently the lions share of your budget should also be expended towards speakers.

Now, this is something that I am yet to concur. IMO its not as simple as that.
In my limited experience, I have found that the more expensive the speaker, the more revealing/neutral it is and more demanding it is for equally high quality electronics. It has been a consistent observation on my front. It has never happened that a speaker upgrade has given me better sound without an electronics upgrade unless my electronics were already at the next level (like in this case, I had the Symphonic line before I got the ATC).
So, in my view, it is very important that the purchase is balanced or else be prepared to upgrade your electronics sooner than later. After all you cannot spend 200k on a setup and wait for 2-3 years to get a good sound from it (because the electronics were not up to the mark). You just cannot drive a Dynaudio, ATC or a Thiel with Nad, Rotel or Marantz (entry level) stuff. Neither the CDP nor the Amplifier can be compromised when you reach a certain level of loudspeakers.
To quote an example...I got a much better sound from a NAD C521 + Plinius 8100 integrated amp + Dynaudio Audience 52 than I got with the same electronics with a Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE. I was almost immediately forced to change the electronics when I acquired the 1.3SE. Such experiences are truly important to understand what happens up there when you climb the ladder in high end. Today, cables have become almost as critical as my CD transport because of the ATCs. Can you imagine !!!

Trinanjan, if you want to stop at 200-250k and settle down then you have to plan really well to get the most out of it (choice of speakers being high critical). Else if you are ready for subsequent upgrade, you may choose to spend as much as you want on one component.

 

[bhanja_trinanjan]

Now, this is something that I am yet to concur. IMO its not as simple as that.
In my limited experience, I have found that the more expensive the speaker, the more revealing/neutral it is and more demanding it is for equally high quality electronics. It has been a consistent observation on my front. It has never happened that a speaker upgrade has given me better sound without an electronics upgrade unless my electronics were already at the next level (like in this case, I had the Symphonic line before I got the ATC).

X2

Same thing happened to me on the headphone front.

My iPod was plain unlistenable as source for my K701. (even with headphone amp)

Did an impulse upgrade to the Cambridge 640C then, as every other CDP was out of my budget.

 

[square_wave]

Now, this is something that I am yet to concur. IMO its not as simple as that.
In my limited experience, I have found that the more expensive the speaker, the more revealing/neutral it is and more demanding it is for equally high quality electronics. It has been a consistent observation on my front. It has never happened that a speaker upgrade has given me better sound without an electronics upgrade unless my electronics were already at the next level (like in this case, I had the Symphonic line before I got the ATC).
So, in my view, it is very important that the purchase is balanced or else be prepared to upgrade your electronics sooner than later. After all you cannot spend 200k on a setup and wait for 2-3 years to get a good sound from it (because the electronics were not up to the mark). You just cannot drive a Dynaudio, ATC or a Thiel with Nad, Rotel or Marantz (entry level) stuff. Neither the CDP nor the Amplifier can be compromised when you reach a certain level of loudspeakers.
To quote an example...I got a much better sound from a NAD C521 + Plinius 8100 integrated amp + Dynaudio Audience 52 than I got with the same electronics with a Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE. I was almost immediately forced to change the electronics when I acquired the 1.3SE. Such experiences are truly important to understand what happens up there when you climb the ladder in high end. Today, cables have become almost as critical as my CD transport because of the ATCs. Can you imagine !!!

Trinanjan, if you want to stop at 200-250k and settle down then you have to plan really well to get the most out of it (choice of speakers being high critical). Else if you are ready for subsequent upgrade, you may choose to spend as much as you want on one component.

Completely concur with DR.Bass.
A "balanced" and "educated" approach is extremely critical to achieve a vertical upgrade. Else you will be in the darkness scratching your head and wondering what went wrong !

 

[Dr.Bass]

X2

Same thing happened to me on the headphone front.

My iPod was plain unlistenable as source for my K701. (even with headphone amp)

Did an impulse upgrade to the Cambridge 640C then, as every other CDP was out of my budget.

Thank God, you understand what I exactly meant.
These are big budget investments so surprises are best avoided.

 

[Dr.Bass]

@ Dr. Bass. Man you must have some concentration & patience to audition for 9 hrs X 5 days. I wouldve had withdrawal symptoms.
Wouldve been nice to know your impressions of the set up us youve auditioned & your method of auditioning so many set-ups at one go. Though its asking for too much. I wouldve not been able to note down the nos of speakers as youve.
Thanks again.
Cheers.

Sir, when you have a situation you have to act accordingly.
I had a situation where I had a limited budget, I wanted a genuine upgrade, I had a list of priorities that I wanted to achieve in my next speaker...on top of all that I do not have the option of listening to the speakers here in India.
What do you do ?
I would genuinely confess that if I had not got to audition the ATCs at Singapore, I might have come back empty handed. The Rockports were too expensive and the Tannoy was huge. I would have simple come back rather than choosing the best among them.
So, with that kind of mindset, I rather listen to whatever is available or do not blame myself later for not being able to buy a speaker.
After all you cannot throw 200k into some experimental purchase:sad:.

 

[reignofchaos]

The higher you go up the speaker chain, the better its resolution and the more unforgiving it is to any poor equipment in the chain. If you spend 1X on a speaker, be prepared to spend 2X+ on the electronics to do justice to it.

 

[Dr.Bass]

The higher you go up the speaker chain, the better its resolution and the more unforgiving it is to any poor equipment in the chain. If you spend 1X on a speaker, be prepared to spend 2X+ on the electronics to do justice to it.

Some speakers are forgiving (even if they are expensive) like the Harbeth.
But I would call them less neutral and less transparent.

 

[mahiruha]

Hi Trinanjan,
let me tell you my view on these things. I don't have much idea about your precise subjective requirement but I can give you an objective view. Well it seems you are yet to have a not sure how to say but let us assume a decent amp which is capable of driving a decent pair of speakers and you are looking for a speaker. I guess in order to fulfill your musical enjoyment you need to find a speaker first and then a suitable amp to match them. Which I think is a very difficult thing to do Calcutta where options are so limited. So it make sense to include in your audition list somebody who makes the amplifier and speakers both and try and audition them. Two names come to my mind Lyrita and Audire. I don't know much about Audire but I have Lyrita speaker and amps and I am quite satisfied with its performence.My place isn't ideal to audition them as I have this snooker table but you are always welcome. I think you can also enhance the performence of the tube amplifier by changing the stock tubes and putting more expensive parts.In your budget to get the best performence it is worthwhile considering the Vinyl route. I mean to say get a decent phono pre , integrated amp, speakrs from Lyrita and a slightly expensive TT .I guess there isn't much price difference between imported cds with good quality recording and brand new western classical vinyls purchased from abroad.
Thanks.

 

[sidvee]

Now, this is something that I am yet to concur. IMO its not as simple as that.
In my limited experience, I have found that the more expensive the speaker, the more revealing/neutral it is and more demanding it is for equally high quality electronics.

I agree that a balanced approach is required (hopefully towards everything in life:lol, but what I have consistently heard and observed is that ultimately the louspeaker will determine the musicality of the chain .
I have attended numerous hi-fi shows where demos of expensive speakers (read +$20k) were made with equipment a notch or couple of notches below. Also in many cases loudspeaker manufacturers stuck with one brand, typically one from their own stable.
Of course bhanja_trinanjan - with a headphone based system it is very easy to identify shortcomings of the downstream chain but with a speaker based system, believe me it is not that easy. There are room interactions, acoustics etc. that will play a major role regardless of how transparent the speaker is.
Anyways that was just my opinion - suggest that you do audition as many equipments of your proposed hi-fi in unison - preferably in your room - and hopefully that will give the best bang-for-buck system.
cheers
Sid

 

[neo]

@Dr. Bass I was just praising & appreciating your effort to audition a bunch of speakers at one go. I was also intrigued on the way you kept your focus & concentration to end up taking a call & not get confused.
I hope you're not taking my comments the other way around.
Cheers

@ Audio Engr.
You had mentioned a diff crossover for your B&Ws.
Did B&W give you a diff crossover or you got it form other sources?

TIA
Cheers.

 

[Asit]

Hi audio_engr,

I am speechless, both on accounts of your seriousness and the dynamic range of 44 dB that you found. Wow!

Is this a special recording of sorts? I mean, is this normal, or you just picked a very special example from your collection? What is your guess for normal reasonable recording found in most stores? I know this is not an easy question to guess-answer because the scale is logarithmic.

Regards.

 

[arj]

Test Music: Track-1 (3min 48sec)
Nicolai-Rimsky-Korsakov / Dance of the Tumblers
Minnesota Orchestra conducted by Eiji Oue
Tutti ! Orchestral Sampler
Reference Recordings RR-906CD

Hope the above info helps............

Great recording....the dynamics are awesome in this track.
In fact bought a few more of Eiji Oue and RR abums after that (Mephisto & Co etc)

 

[Dr.Bass]

@Dr. Bass I was just praising & appreciating your effort to audition a bunch of speakers at one go. I was also intrigued on the way you kept your focus & concentration to end up taking a call & not get confused.
I hope you're not taking my comments the other way around.
Cheers

Hey Neo, I know you were appreciating.
I was only explaining what was on my mind when I was out there at Spore on this expedition.

 

[hifiashok]

Great recording....the dynamics are awesome in this track.
In fact bought a few more of Eiji Oue and RR abums after that (Mephisto & Co etc)

this is HDCD.

 

[nosortf]

Hello my first post on this forum, I suggest Spendor SA3 active speakers. They are a vintage type but quite a few are on sale on the internet. Happy hunting.

nosortf

 

[odyssey]

Cranky
is this right? I mean the dynamic range on LPs vs CDs? One is what is theoreticaly possible - the CD should have higher in theory. The other is what happens when the CD is cut. For many reasons (in Vinyl also but for other reasons) the dynamic range is cut and the entire music compressed - also for the benefit of making it sound good on radio. But these are mostly POP recordings which benefit from huge radio time. What about recordings made in the early 90s when the potential of the CDs was just realised? In any case, this is a theory discussion only as the theoretical levels are far higher than what one can experience practically. Ambient noise is high in most residences unless the rooms are properly sound-proofed to limit external noises, road noises, etc

cheers

 

[odyssey]

For people who are wondering what compression does - its a bit like someone next to you talking in a loud voice or worse still, shouting away (without much amplitude variation - aka dynamic range). This is fine for radios and most car systems or 2-in ones, but will not work well for high end systems. Morning Glory's fame was attributed to high volume recording
....also a good lesson for people to not be awed in one sitting of a demo where playback is at ear bleeding levels...uh oh, but this is giving away local practices

cheers

 

[nosortf]

Hello, coming back to the subject of speakers for classical music, there seems to be a Spendor SA3 on EBay for 1400 Euros for sale. I think it is a good bargain you must look at.