Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speakers

[churfsan]

Hello all,

This is my first post. Kindly help me out

I purchased a home theater setup about two (2) years back. I opted for Yamaha RX-V459 receiver (6.1 setup) and Wharedale Movie Star 70 bookshelf speakers. I connected my DVD player co-axial out (digital) to the receiver.

The problem is that I am just not satisfied with the movie experience. The bass is weak (although the sub-woofer looks big like a monster), and overall experience is dull and lack-lustre.

I am unable to understand whether the problem is with the speakers or the receiver or both.

Is there any way to salvage - changing speakers, perhaps? Is it worth it, considering the present receiver?

If I have to consider a new setup totally, any one has any idea where I can get rid of the present setup (exchange or otherwise)? I live in Hyderabad.

Any help will be immensely appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Churfsan

 

[prakasse]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Hi,

Are you using original dvd's?

If not try palying a original DVD in DTS mode and see if there is better result?

I went through the specs. Looks like the satellite speakers have only 4" driver and supports frequency of 120 HZ upwards only. So can't expect much bass in these.

The subwoofer supports 28 HZ to 170HZ. Try adjusting the crossover frequency for better results.

How much did you pay for the receiver and the speaker package?

Thanks, Prakash

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Thanks Prakash,

I am using original DVD.
Some titles like HERO, KUNGFu HUSTLE do sound better, but not to full satisfaction.

To explain what I mean, I think that my desktop speakers - ALTEC LANSING MX-5021 sounds WAY MUCH BETTER, and I paid only 10K for these speakers.

On the other hand, I paid 50K for the HT package, and hence not happy. Sounds reasonable with music, but still the MX-5021 rocks

Thanks
Churfsan

 

[vint]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Thanks Prakash,

I am using original DVD.
Some titles like HERO, KUNGFu HUSTLE do sound better, but not to full satisfaction.

To explain what I mean, I think that my desktop speakers - ALTEC LANSING MX-5021 sounds WAY MUCH BETTER, and I paid only 10K for these speakers.

On the other hand, I paid 50K for the HT package, and hence not happy. Sounds reasonable with music, but still the MX-5021 rocks

Thanks
Churfsan

ok, comparing to pc speakers, one of the reasons (just a guess) could be the acoustics. PCs are kept in cramped places, and you are sitting very near to the speakers/sub, so the sound effect is obviously good. But a HT, would have speakers scattered all over the room and unless they are arranged properly, you might not get the desired effect. Have you considered this ? How big is your room ?

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

ok, comparing to pc speakers, one of the reasons (just a guess) could be the acoustics. PCs are kept in cramped places, and you are sitting very near to the speakers/sub, so the sound effect is obviously good. But a HT, would have speakers scattered all over the room and unless they are arranged properly, you might not get the desired effect. Have you considered this ? How big is your room ?

Thanks Vint,

You may have a point there, but actually I am using both in the same room. The room is about 12 feet (depth) X 15 feet (width).

Even at about 30% volume, the MX-5021 sounds so much more alive and thrilling. I have compared scene to scene from movies like HERO and LOTR, with DTS tracks. Clearly the desktop speakers sound way better. Of course, these desktop speakers are almost universally acclaimed and THX certified.

There is no auto calibration with my AVR. I tried my best to tweak settings like bass level, cross over frequency etc.

Churfsan

 

[bazee]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

hi friend

i have same yam avr with wf 9.5s and it sounds great.
the weak link in ur system are the spks.
i was offered the same spk package demo piece for 25k which i refused.
if u doubt the yam avr why not ask a onkyo guy to give u a home demo so spks wouldbe same. then u can decide wether to keep the avr or do away with all setup.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

hi friend

i have same yam avr with wf 9.5s and it sounds great.
the weak link in ur system are the spks.
i was offered the same spk package demo piece for 25k which i refused.
if u doubt the yam avr why not ask a onkyo guy to give u a home demo so spks wouldbe same. then u can decide wether to keep the avr or do away with all setup.

Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions. I was also thinking that the speakers may be the problem as opposed to the AVR. If so, can you suggest any 5.1 speaker setup, and how much I have to budget for the same.

In Hyderabad, I doubt if the dealers are so enthusiastic as to give home demo, you see I think there is still not too many customers as compared to Bangalore, Mumbai and Delhi. But I will give it a shot. Also not too many good dealers giving much choice of speakers. Here, Onkyo has showroom, PRO-FX has franchise, YAMAHA / DENON has a dealer, I am not sure of JAMO

How much the WF9.5 costs? Are they still current?

Thank you again

 

[bazee]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

WF 9.5 cost 27-31k.

i have listed my in sale classifieds.

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Churfsan,

Let us know how you have setup the speakers as the yamaha is a pretty decent AVR. I am getting a feeling that you might not have setup the system very well.

Also comparing to your desktop speakers is not right since its power amplification, distortion & levels could be completely different thatn your HT setup.

Have you set all your speakers to "Small". What is your cross over frequency in the AVR for the sub? THX recommendaiton is 80 Hz but you can play from 60 - 100. Also if your sub has a volume control raise it about half way. Also, how does yoru system sound with 2.1 sound vs. 5.1? And play 1 CD or comparison purposes.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Churfsan,

Let us know how you have setup the speakers as the yamaha is a pretty decent AVR. I am getting a feeling that you might not have setup the system very well.

Also comparing to your desktop speakers is not right since its power amplification, distortion & levels could be completely different thatn your HT setup.

Have you set all your speakers to "Small". What is your cross over frequency in the AVR for the sub? THX recommendaiton is 80 Hz but you can play from 60 - 100. Also if your sub has a volume control raise it about half way. Also, how does yoru system sound with 2.1 sound vs. 5.1? And play 1 CD or comparison purposes.

Thanks marsilians,

I have set the speakers to small. I have set the cross over at 120 Hz. Should I reduce this? Also, I set room size to small. I have tried to enter speaker distances reasonably. I have set the speaker level for sub-woofer at a slightly higher value i.e. +3 (others at 0).

I have set bass out to : SUB. The other choices are BOTH, FRONT.

I am using a co-axial cable to connect SUB OUT from AVR to the Sub-woofer. This sub is having two inputs (LEFT & RIGHT). I connected to LEFT (only one cable, as there is only one OUT on the AVR). I read somewhere that we can use a 'Y' cable to connect to both RIGHT and LEFT terminals. Will this make a difference. I do not know if I can find that cable here in Hyderabad

On the sub, there are two adjustments. One for LEVEL and another for crossover. Both I am leaving at mid point.

Another thing, I am using the speaker cable provided by the speaker package (for front and surround). I am not sure what is the gauge. Also, I am using a co-axial cable for the sub. This also is not any specific make, as far as I know. Will it make a difference if I use better wires. But again I have to spend to find out, if it makes any difference.

The sub has a down-firing port I think. Does it make a difference about the material below, that is bare floor (marble) or wood (or decolam coated). It has stand-off legs below, gap is about 2 inches I think. Presently, Sub is at ground level on a wooden plank.

Floor is marble. walls are mostly bare. One side is wardrobe. Front speakers are wall-mount at about 5 feet from ground. Rear is wall mounted at about 7 feet from ground. Centre is shelf mounted about 3 feet from ground.

Please let me know anything wrong with this or any suggestions for improvement. I will try out the same. If any improvements are there I will definitely share my experience which may help others also.

Thanks a lot
Churfsan

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

One more thing, the speakers are rated at 4 ohms /6 ohms. The AVR has option to set to either 6 ohm or 8 ohm. This I have set to 6 ohm.

thanks
churfsan

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Thanks marsilians,

I have set the speakers to small. I have set the cross over at 120 Hz. Should I reduce this? Also, I set room size to small.

I would set the cross over to 80 since you are telling the AVR to send anything below this to the sub and above it to the speakers.

I have tried to enter speaker distances reasonably. I have set the speaker level for sub-woofer at a slightly higher value i.e. +3 (others at 0).

Speaker distances could be approximate though not too much off. Take a tape and measure to your central sitting position and then add that in the values for distances. If you dont have such a long tape, take a thread and do the same and measure the thread distance.

I don't know this particular model though I am familiar with Yamaha a fair bit. Is this arond 60 or 70% of the level. If not, set it to that. The center can be a bit more to hear the dialogue. (+5 % more than L/R)

I have set bass out to : SUB. The other choices are BOTH, FRONT.

Set it to BOTH since you want speakers and sub to handle bass based on frequency.

I am using a co-axial cable to connect SUB OUT from AVR to the Sub-woofer. This sub is having two inputs (LEFT & RIGHT). I connected to LEFT (only one cable, as there is only one OUT on the AVR). I read somewhere that we can use a 'Y' cable to connect to both RIGHT and LEFT terminals. Will this make a difference. I do not know if I can find that cable here in Hyderabad

If you read the manual for your sub carefully it should say if you are connecting one cable only, then it does not matter either to left or right. Leave it on LEFT.

On the sub, there are two adjustments. One for LEVEL and another for crossover. Both I am leaving at mid point.

This is important. Don't change the crossover on teh sub. Leave it at 0 (minimum) since you are already setting this in AVR. The AVR is better at managing cross overs than the sub since you will be playing with only those frequencies below 80 Hz and may be losing out.

Another thing, I am using the speaker cable provided by the speaker package (for front and surround). I am not sure what is the gauge. Also, I am using a co-axial cable for the sub. This also is not any specific make, as far as I know. Will it make a difference if I use better wires.

Take it from me, the cables are perfectly fine. Usually you get 16 or 18 gauge cable with speakers. Unless you are having them at 25 - 30 ft, it will not make a difference at all. Same with coaxial. Just make sure its 75 ohms (most are standard) but double check.

But again I have to spend to find out, if it makes any difference.

The sub has a down-firing port I think. Does it make a difference about the material below, that is bare floor (marble) or wood (or decolam coated). It has stand-off legs below, gap is about 2 inches I think. Presently, Sub is at ground level on a wooden plank.

Perfect setup. Marble is very very reflective. Wood is not much. So a board broadre than the sub shoudl be placed and make sure there is enough air in it.
Also is your sub a 8 or 10 or 12 driver? This means it will push increasing amounts of air as the driver size increases.

Floor is marble. walls are mostly bare. One side is wardrobe. Front speakers are wall-mount at about 5 feet from ground. Rear is wall mounted at about 7 feet from ground. Centre is shelf mounted about 3 feet from ground.

I see some problems here though they are fixable. If you think of speakers as people, make sure they face you as you speak. It appears that the speakers may not be facing you in your sitting position. Also the marble floors and walls reflect a bit. Try putting carpet or mat or rug on the floor and some drapes on the wall (if possible) since they will minimize the reflection.

The center should be at your ears height when you sit. so raise it up.
L/R should be at the points of an equilateral triange (as much as possible). Rears ca be before/after your sitting position though its better to be after and then also they could be higher. But they should point towards you.

http://www.audioholics.com/images/img1.jpg

shows you the Dolby Digital recommendation for 5.1 setup. while its impossible to keep it perfect in our homes (remember they are using dedicated sound rooms for this), try to be close enough. One thing this figure does not give is the heights but I have covered it earlier.


Last thing, start with 3.1 setup L/C/R with sub and once you get better sound add the rears Since they take care of less than 20% of any audio.
Let us know how it sounds.

 

[moserw]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

churfsan,

Where in Hyderabad are you located?

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

4/6 ohm settings are tricky to deal with for an AVR. Personally I dont believe your AVR can drive such low efficiency speakers. If you have budget for a powre amp, try to get one (even stereo amp should be fine) then you can connect C/SL/SR to the AVR.

IF you set them in the AVR you are telling it to manage occasional dips to that impedence. You should not attempt to play loud for longer periods as your AVR will overheat and shut down.

So hopefully you have sufficient ventilation around it.

Also this could be another reason you may not hear great sound as it may be a bit hard for the AVR to drive the speakers.

Don't set to 4 ohm as its will be a drag for the AVR to drive.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

I would set the cross over to 80 since you are telling the AVR to send anything below this to the sub and above it to the speakers.



Speaker distances could be approximate though not too much off. Take a tape and measure to your central sitting position and then add that in the values for distances. If you dont have such a long tape, take a thread and do the same and measure the thread distance.

I don't know this particular model though I am familiar with Yamaha a fair bit. Is this arond 60 or 70% of the level. If not, set it to that. The center can be a bit more to hear the dialogue. (+5 % more than L/R)



Set it to BOTH since you want speakers and sub to handle bass based on frequency.



If you read the manual for your sub carefully it should say if you are connecting one cable only, then it does not matter either to left or right. Leave it on LEFT.



This is important. Don't change the crossover on teh sub. Leave it at 0 (minimum) since you are already setting this in AVR. The AVR is better at managing cross overs than the sub since you will be playing with only those frequencies below 80 Hz and may be losing out.





Take it from me, the cables are perfectly fine. Usually you get 16 or 18 gauge cable with speakers. Unless you are having them at 25 - 30 ft, it will not make a difference at all. Same with coaxial. Just make sure its 75 ohms (most are standard) but double check.

But again I have to spend to find out, if it makes any difference.



Perfect setup. Marble is very very reflective. Wood is not much. So a board broadre than the sub shoudl be placed and make sure there is enough air in it.
Also is your sub a 8 or 10 or 12 driver? This means it will push increasing amounts of air as the driver size increases.




I see some problems here though they are fixable. If you think of speakers as people, make sure they face you as you speak. It appears that the speakers may not be facing you in your sitting position. Also the marble floors and walls reflect a bit. Try putting carpet or mat or rug on the floor and some drapes on the wall (if possible) since they will minimize the reflection.

The center should be at your ears height when you sit. so raise it up.
L/R should be at the points of an equilateral triange (as much as possible). Rears ca be before/after your sitting position though its better to be after and then also they could be higher. But they should point towards you.

http://www.audioholics.com/images/img1.jpg

shows you the Dolby Digital recommendation for 5.1 setup. while its impossible to keep it perfect in our homes (remember they are using dedicated sound rooms for this), try to be close enough. One thing this figure does not give is the heights but I have covered it earlier.


Last thing, start with 3.1 setup L/C/R with sub and once you get better sound add the rears Since they take care of less than 20% of any audio.
Let us know how it sounds.

Thanks marsilians for spending so much time and trying to help out. I really have to now check on your suggestions and see if it makes noticeable difference.

I will try the following:

- Set bass to BOTH instead of only SUB
- Setting crossover to 80 Hz. I think the sub manual says it can handle up to 170 Hz, but I will cross check again on this.
- The sub manual does say that bass will be slightly reduced if you connect only one terminal. I do not know whether the 'slightly reduced' makes noticeable difference.
- The sub manual says that the knobs on the mid-point are the default. I will need to check on this again. If we set the AVR cross over point, whether moving the knob on the sub change the Low Pass / High pass of the sub?
- I will check on the co-axial impedance again. Incidentally I am using the same cable type to connect DIGITAL OUT from my DVD player to DIGITAL IN on the AVR. Does this mean anything - whether it is suitable for use with AVR->SUB connection?
- I cannot raise the center speakers at the moment. There is no space.
- I can try to use a carpet and see, drapes on the walls are out

I will post the results, and look for more help

Thanks again
Churfsan

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

4/6 ohm settings are tricky to deal with for an AVR. Personally I dont believe your AVR can drive such low efficiency speakers. If you have budget for a powre amp, try to get one (even stereo amp should be fine) then you can connect C/SL/SR to the AVR.

IF you set them in the AVR you are telling it to manage occasional dips to that impedence. You should not attempt to play loud for longer periods as your AVR will overheat and shut down.

So hopefully you have sufficient ventilation around it.

Also this could be another reason you may not hear great sound as it may be a bit hard for the AVR to drive the speakers.

Don't set to 4 ohm as its will be a drag for the AVR to drive.

Hi marsilians,

The Yamaha AVR manual makes a specific mention about this setting. It advises to make this setting (either 8 ohm or 6 ohm) before connecting the speakers, depending upon the speaker impedance. I am not facing any heating problems, and yes, there is plenty of ventilation. It is mounted on a table (sort of) and there are no obstructions (on any side).

Thanks
Churfsan

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

churfsan,

Where in Hyderabad are you located?

Hi moserw,


I am in Kacheguda

Churfsan

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

One more thing, the speakers are rated at 4 ohms /6 ohms. The AVR has option to set to either 6 ohm or 8 ohm. This I have set to 6 ohm.

thanks
churfsan

Hi See post #14 below not sure why it did now show up later in the chain.

 

[marsilians]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Hi marsilians,

The Yamaha AVR manual makes a specific mention about this setting. It advises to make this setting (either 8 ohm or 6 ohm) before connecting the speakers, depending upon the speaker impedance. I am not facing any heating problems, and yes, there is plenty of ventilation. It is mounted on a table (sort of) and there are no obstructions (on any side).

Thanks
Churfsan

Thats good to know Chursfan. If possible and if the user manual does mention it, set the impedence to 4 ohms. The (lower) impedance setting will provide a measure of insurance so that you don't overdrive the AVR. There is probably a section in the operating manual which tells you which setting to use based on the speaker combination.

Also look at the following for a good description of settings.

Speaker Impedance Explained - Ohms

From the article

If you are mixing speakers with different impedance ratings, be sure to check the total impedance using the rules above to be certain the total is greater than the minimum value, or you risk overloading and burning up the amplifier.

 

[churfsan]

Re: Home Theater Problems - Yamaha RX-V459 Receiver and Whafedale Movie Star 70 Speak

Hi marsilians,

Checked the speaker manual, and found the following:

Frequency Range at -6dB
Satellite: 12020k
Centre: 7020k
Sub: Boundary position: 28170Hz

Xover Frequency
Satellite: 3k
Centre: 2k
Sub: Xover Frequency: 70170Hz

Sub has 8" driver

Does this all make any sense? I am not very clear on Xover frequency for Satellite and Center at 3k and 2k respectively.

Frequency range of Satellite is 120Hz and for Centre is 70 Hz (starting). If I set the cross over to 80Hz on AVR, then above 80 it will send to satellite and centre. This is ok for centre I guess, but satellite cannot handle it I think. For centre also, it may be border case. Since sub can handle upto 170 Hz (higher side), I was thinking to set xover at about 120 Hz or so, or maybe even higher (like 140 or so).

I look forward to hear your comments

Thanks
Churfsan