How good is vinyl's sound?

Ambio

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Dear FMs,

I have very little experience with vinyl. So please forgive if my question sounds silly.

Wouldn't it be possible to record vinyl directly to digital and it must sound exactly like playing the turntable?

Anyone?
 
Wouldn't it be possible to record vinyl directly to digital and it must sound exactly like playing the turntable?

Certainly. Most of us who have ever "digitised" vinyl will have experienced just that.

I'm just an amateur, rough-and-ready digitiser, too: some people put in an astounding amount of work and care
 
Certainly. Most of us who have ever "digitised" vinyl will have experienced just that.

I'm just an amateur, rough-and-ready digitiser, too: some people put in an astounding amount of work and care

That's means the digital and vinyl would sound identical?
 
yes. You could digitize vinyl and make it sound pretty close, unless you are one of those with a stereo setup approaching the 1Million Rupee mark.

The reason I am a big fan of vinyl is that music is reprocessed to cd in a way that it kills the life of the music. The music you find on old vinyl is stuff that has not been violated as a casualty of the loudness wars. Similarly, most of the new records which are mastered digitally sound no different from their CD's
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiLE4bbKaFI

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KWVSpLmRQU

do these sound different to you ? If yes, then my point is proved.
 
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It is quite possible for CD to sound equal, better or worse than vinyl. For example I recently bought the Pink floyd division bell LP. I initially compared it to the 2011 remaster from the discovery box set.

The latter sounded thinner in the mid range compared to vinyl but had way more detail. Then I compared the vinyl with the original cd pressing which I bought around 1999. This CD now sounded pretty much the same as the vinyl.

So its more about the pressing and mastering than the medium itself. Also please do keep in mind that these comparisons are done with an entry level 1500$ turntable and a 5000$ mid-fi dac. YMMV.
 
do these sound different to you ? If yes, then my point is proved.

The difference is obvious and one of them despite sounding rich actually buries some detail. Unfortunately, I don't think I could make a fair comparison with the YouTube sound.

What I am really interested is; can you make identical copy from a vinyl using a ADC? Can you perceive any loss of quality? Would this copy sound better than a digitally remastered copy?
 
The difference is obvious and one of them despite sounding rich actually buries some detail. Unfortunately, I don't think I could make a fair comparison with the YouTube sound.

What I am really interested is; can you make identical copy from a vinyl using a ADC? Can you perceive any loss of quality? Would this copy sound better than a digitally remastered copy?
There are lots of needle drops available on 24/96 using some good TTS and Carts

The "Identical copy from Vinyl" will be dubious and debatable since not all TTs are equal and accuracy in terms of reproduction is not ensured as the chain from TT to cartridge to Phono to ADC is bound to have changes.. unless we are talking of Pro or broadcasting TTs
 
"How good is vinyl's sound?"

There are three subjective terms in that question. (1) Good (2) How good (3) Sound. With so much subjectivity involved, this thread has the potential to invite some serious participation.

My take is that, it's almost impossible to tell without there being a reference. We must take some points of reference. So, what reference it would be? How good is vinyl's sound? .... compared to what?

If there is no reference point as such, let me end by saying, it sounds pretty good :p
 
This is something really bothers me for a long time. I have heard very finest vinyl sound using ClearAudio Statement and it did definetly sounded different and likeable. However, I don't think the difference is night and day. I doubt anyone could honestly tell the difference.

In cheaper TT it may be easily identifiable with the clicks and pops but there wasnt any in the Statement TT. Despite that, it was possible to tell the difference. It could be due the cd player ( Boulder). I don't know.

But with the finest TT and digital playback, I don't think the distinction is clear unless you are familiar with the recording.mcorrect?
 
It's a very serious question, with people having extreme opinions on the subject. Hope this doesn't get caught in a storm.

What I have experienced is - the best digital reproduction and the best vinyl reproduction are pretty darn close (the fidelity of the source being the same).

Vintage equipments sound different (to some people they are better). That applies to TTs as well. They have a different reproduction compared to modern TTs.

IMO, comparing like with like, the two kind of sources would sound more similar than different. If we break down the overall reproduction into its various aspects we will find each one does some things better than the other.

At the end of the day, one can find his audio nirvana any of the two ways depending on personal taste. There is no silver bullet here.
 
That's means the digital and vinyl would sound identical?

If it is your digitisation, then it should sound identical to your stylus/cartridge/turntable played through your pre-amp.

I wonder if anyone has ever blind-tested stylus/cartridge/turntable/pre-amp combinations? Vinyl playback is probably one of the most idiosyncratic and individual things in hifi, and my suspicion is that finding two setups that sounded the same would be much harder than telling any two apart.

yes. You could digitize vinyl and make it sound pretty close, unless you are one of those with a stereo setup approaching the 1Million Rupee mark.
it will sound like your setup, whether that is cheap, expensive, good, bad or indifferent! And if one is happy with the TT setup, one must be happy with digitisations thereof.

It is quite possible for CD to sound equal, better or worse than vinyl. For example I recently bought the Pink floyd division bell LP. I initially compared it to the 2011 remaster from the discovery box set.
Add different to the list! (EDIT: I just read your post properly :o)

I don't mean different like the example that I keep quoting from the Chennai Meet, as in really, really different, I mean as in...

I was searching for a digital copy of an LP that I own which had become less-than-pristine (OK, record company, so sue me: as far as I'm concerned, yes, I paid for the music already ;) ) and I found one. At first, I didn't like it. This was a live rock concert recording, and it seemed a bit cold and clinical compared to the vinyl. After giving it some listening time, though, I came to realise that there was more detail, and that quite possibly (I wasn't there!) it did sound more like the live music wuld have done. I can understand why some might have gone on preferring my old LP, so not better or worse --- just different.

What I am really interested is; can you make identical copy from a vinyl using a ADC? Can you perceive any loss of quality? Would this copy sound better than a digitally remastered copy?

identical --- is a big word! There is probably no theoretical reason why it should not be identical, but real world considerations might get in the way, and the flavours imparted by the analogue side of your system certainly will.

remastered --- how good is the mastering? Unanswerable question! Anyway, much of the music on LPs, these days, was digital before it was rendered analogue again.

There are lots of needle drops available on 24/96 using some good TTS and Carts

The "Identical copy from Vinyl" will be dubious and debatable since not all TTs are equal and accuracy in terms of reproduction is not ensured as the chain from TT to cartridge to Phono to ADC is bound to have changes.. unless we are talking of Pro or broadcasting TTs

Absolutely: it is going to be forever a reflection of the system on which it was made, but it should certainly stand up to AB comparison on that system.

Of course, if one works at taking the noise, pops and crackles out then identical goes out the window, and so does AB comparison.

With another digital copy (but not made by me) of an LP that I have had forever, I had grown so used to a fault on the vinyl that I just accepted it as part of the music. On first hearing, its absence shocked me! :rolleyes:

I have another set of albums, digitised at 24/96 (not that I consider that relevant) that are so amazingly good (excepting that I don't, in this case, have the albums to compare) that I am in absolute awe of the pristine-condition LPs, and the care that must have been put in to the work.
 
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If it is your digitisation, then it should sound identical to your stylus/cartridge/turntable played through your pre-amp.

I wonder if anyone has ever blind-tested stylus/cartridge/turntable/pre-amp combinations? Vinyl playback is probably one of the most idiosyncratic and individual things in hifi, and my suspicion is that finding two setups that sounded the same would be much harder than telling any two apart.


.

.....



identical --- is a big word! There is probably no theoretical reason why it should not be identical, but real world considerations might get in the way, and the flavours imparted by the analogue side of your system certainly will.

remastered --- how good is the mastering? Unanswerable question! Anyway, much of the music on LPs, these days, was digital before it was rendered analogue again.


.

Actually, there was a double blind test taken by a very prominent vinyl guy. No difference. I was thinking since many audiophile insist that vinyl sounds better then why not recordings company make a vinyl and rip it to a cd and sell them since under DBT the vinyl and the CD ( vinyl copy) sounded identical?

Why are they not adding the vinyl flavour in CdD recording when it could be done rather easily?
 
Doesn't this get a bit like SS and Valves?

I was dead set against valves for many years, during which I didn't actually hear any, because I associated them with the sound of consumer equipment in the 1950s. Then, when I finally heard valve amps more recently... of course, they just don't sound like that. Probably the hifi stuff never did. You know JJ Johnston's valve/SS listening-test story?
 
I too was against tube but now I am using a tube preamplifier. It adds slight touch of coloration that enhances the vocals. The difference is at the amplification stage where valve clips benignly which adds a little colouration. There is still little bit of audiophile mentality in me.

Going back to your first question, not really. A well designed valve may sound a lot similar like SS but in the case of vinyl there seems to be some difference which is obvious. Subjectively, I do agree there is some sort of attraction to it.

However, my question is not that. Why is that CD still sounds digital when they can make it to sound exactly like a vinyl? Unless, there is no market for such quality. OTOH, I have two CD that have slight traces of vinyl rumble. One is a Japanes audiophile CD and another one is Tracy Chapman.
 
yes. You could digitize vinyl and make it sound pretty close, unless you are one of those with a stereo setup approaching the 1Million Rupee mark.

The reason I am a big fan of vinyl is that music is reprocessed to cd in a way that it kills the life of the music. The music you find on old vinyl is stuff that has not been violated as a casualty of the loudness wars. Similarly, most of the new records which are mastered digitally sound no different from their CD's
LP45??Paul Mauriat??????La Reine De Saba?Original??AT28E Body???DL103/???DL103C1? - YouTube

Paul Mauriat - La Reine De Saba - YouTube

do these sound different to you ? If yes, then my point is proved.

Thanks greenhorn, awesome orchestra. Is there any Paul Mauriat CD available in online Indian store? I like the LP 45 version. Its lively. I think its pressed in Japan.
 
Ambio said:
I have very little experience with vinyl. So please forgive if my question sounds silly.

Wouldn't it be possible to record vinyl directly to digital and it must sound exactly like playing the turntable?
Not at all....... The quality will be lost..... Digital is a flat void...... NO WARMTH,ETC.......

I love my analog records!!!!! (Records which are 100% analogue are georgeous (If they are done right that is))
 
Not at all....... The quality will be lost..... Digital is a flat void...... NO WARMTH,ETC.......

I love my analog records!!!!! (Records which are 100% analogue are georgeous (If they are done right that is))

Thanks for the feedback. Now I am back to square one. So in your opinion you can't make the exact digital copy? From what I have read so far, it seemed you can make an indistinguishable digital copy.

Have you made any?
 
Isn't it strange how there is a minority who simply can't hear any music labeled "digital."

Dude... your music was digitally processed before it even reached the vinyl.

The rest of us have ears too, you know?

Maybe you have an unbalanced phono stage and a bad valve amp that sounds like the radiogram of my youth. Maybe that's how you think music should be, and, if that's how you like it, then you're entitled, and everything's fine.

Or maybe you have a perfectly balanced, transparent vinyl-playing setup. Who knows? It's hard to tell from posts that don't say much more than a picture of you waving a banner with the words I HATE DIGITAL on it.

You hate digital. Yes, we'd noticed. Probably doesn't make you the best person to comment on it.

If you think this is a bit strong, well, I think you trolling...

PS...

I DON'T HATE VINYL. OR ANALOGUE.

:)
 
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I think since the 70s they have been doing that. Actually, I started this thread on the footing that we can make identical copy of vinyl sound. And why the better sounding digital cd of the vinyl wasn't made available to the masses?

In fact, in the 80s itself one famous TT manufacturer could NOT identify the vinyl copy. That was in 1984 with a 16 bit ADC. I am sure you would have read about it but have you noticed how the audiophile magazines ignored the news or even attempted to rebut them. Probably, they knew but wouldn't want to tell their readers. It would have killed vinyl back then. The only reason vinyl is surviving and thriving is because we have been conditioned by audiophiles.
 
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