How good is vinyl's sound?

[jls001]

I think since the 70s they have been doing that.

CD was commercially introduced in 1982. And ever since, we haven't stopped fighting the vinyl v/s CD war

Actually, I started this thread on the footing that we can make identical copy of vinyl sound.

The analog chain is too variable as Thad already pointed out. So a vinyl rip from one source "should" vary from others. Also, the clicks, pops, surface noise, and the wide variation in the quality of records makes the task difficult.

The only reason vinyl is surviving and thriving is because we have been conditioned by audiophiles.

Besides the rose-tinted and sepia-tinted romanticism attached to vinyl playback, there's one more thing that keeps it alive - the sheer number of records available across the world. Many collectors have consigned their collections to unwanted corners of the house, but the surprising thing is once administered some basic cleaning and care, they still play beautifully despite the neglect. Vinyl is very fragile while being surprisingly robust at the same time. I have in my modest collection a number of ffss and ffrr Decca records which predate current RIAA equalisation standard, meaning they were pressed in the early or mid 50s, and they still play real well.

Personally, vinyl has opened a world of music I was not familiar with. So despite its fickleness, temperament, and general finickiness, I love vinyl playback

 

[Ambio]

CD was commercially introduced in 1982. And ever since, we haven't stopped fighting the vinyl v/s CD war

We? The only reason I would want to be known as audiophile is to identify myself in a group who's objective is about getting a better sound then what's available in the consumer market. If I could tell the difference after dipping the cables in Ganges, I would accept them. I don't care if science can't prove it. But I am must hear the difference and I should able to demonstrate that to others.

The majority do not care for vinyl. The same way they don't care about SACD quality. I am trying bring ourselves to the main stream and move on from there. If a sound is good, 900 out of 1000 should able to tell. Unfortunately, it is not about 900 but the 100 who perceive otherwise and dictates good sound.

It is a culture. I came to this forum because I thought the audiophile crowd here is younger and more knowledgable who would be open to new ideas and correct approach. I am quiet happy to see at least 50% dared to vote they didn't hear any difference in cables. I would not get that in local forum.

Do you think the real audiophile would suddenly decide to dust up his ignored vinyl collection because he felt something was lacking? Or could he have been influenced by the constant bombardment by other audiophiles that analogue is unbeatable.

The analog chain is too variable as Thad already pointed out. So a vinyl rip from one source "should" vary from others. Also, the clicks, pops, surface noise, and the wide variation in the quality of records makes the task difficult .

I am referring to the sound coming out of your phono stage. That sound can be captured 100% without loss and should sound identical even if it is now converted to a CD. Playing that CD with vinyl should be identical. It has been demonstrated but swept under the carpet in the audiophile world.

Personally, vinyl has opened a world of music I was not familiar with. So despite its fickleness, temperament, and general finickiness, I love vinyl playback

Perfectly normal. We may still have memories of those sound. It is also they were the sound that triggers many of your sweet memories. You would subconsciously remember them including their flaws. Even till now, I cannot the same oomph from the Grand Blue Sea Orchestra which was my favourite Cassette when I was young.

Think of your first love. If you get a chance to go back in time, would you want to meet a perfect her without any flaws or you would to meet her exactly how she was when you fall in love?

 

[prem]

Ambio, if you are convinced that a vinyl rip onto a cd will sound the same as the vinyl why did you start this thread. If anyone says anything you come down on them. Your attitude completely sucks.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

There really should be no war between CD and Vinyl. There should be a war against prejudice and false assertions.

LPs played a huge part in my life, and that, as for many of my age give or take a decade, extends back into the days when there was no argument, because that was how music came. I still love the turntable experience, but, curiously, perhaps, that love doesn't extend into using it very much. That's just me. I have no problem with those who feel the exact opposite.

Mind you, I do not accept any of the inherent inferiority of digital theories. And yes, before the "ahh, but you haven't..." objections come out of the wordwork, I have! Well, at least the first one, which is usually the one about high-end, well-setup systems... Yes, I have heard both LP and CD on at least one system well up in the $$tens-of-thousands, and perhaps more importantly, one that belongs to a music lover who puts a huge amount of time, money and sheer devotion into it.

 

[prem]

Thad, I got into digital in 1988. Moved into vinyl just 2 years back. I agree if something is well mastered there is very little difference between the two formats. But to generalise pre 1985 albums, most of which are analogue recordings sound very nice on vinyl. Post 1990 recordings don't sound good on most vinyl set ups. They sound good only on very good analogue set ups. The problem is most of pre 85 recordings have been digitally mastered and cleaned up. Hence their cd presentation is not very likeable. There are obviously always exceptions to this

 

[Ambio]

@Thad, despite we starting off on the wrong foot and have some difference of opinion, we are pretty much on the same boat. +1 to above.

 

[Ambio]

Ambio, if you are convinced that a vinyl rip onto a cd will sound the same as the vinyl why did you start this thread. If anyone says anything you come down on them. Your attitude completely sucks.

Don't let fools to silence you unless you are the fool. I am convinced but I want to ask about others experience and how they reach the conclusion. Is it wrong to tell the emperor wears no cloth?

And just because you cannot prove anything, I suck? Shouldn't it be the other way round? I will let Mod decides on your remark.

 

[arj]

One of the FMs here has an amazingly transparent setup where the DAC is in the amp and the preamp has a adc which up samples and sends the signal to the amp
I would consider the sound to be as "analogue" as I have heard
These discussions on formats are pretty meaningless as there are enough exams of either which are better than the other. Even in vinyl a first press sounds pretty different from a second or later pressing .

 

[Ambio]

Well said, Arj. I mean your signature. But the fools and fanatics would not see that. They are pretty sure of their hearing perception and would not doubt it.

 

[jls001]

@Ambio: the "we" refers to the crowd that fights over the superiority of analog playback versus digital playback. It wasn't meant to say "you" and "me". It's just a generic reference. Personally I believe in both. Both have their strengths, and both play beautifully.

I agree with you that the majority does not care for vinyl playback. It is an old technology, is inconvenient, not easy to get records one likes, etc....

I think folks in this forum are fairly open to fresh ideas, but I don't agree with you about the approach part when you say, "younger and more knowledgable who would be open to new ideas and correct approach". There are many correct approaches, perhaps some more correct than others, depending on one's point of view and musical taste and the size of one's wallet, and most of all what one had invested in a "system". A system here could be all-tube approach, a hybrid of solid state and tubes, a horn speaker system, single driver system, a multi-driver setup, etc, etc. including the often-disparaged-against ICs and power cables. I like to believe that each of us try to optimise our respective setups to perform the best for the kind of music that we favour. For example, a western classical lover would try to optimise the ability of his/her setup for serious SPL levels, the ability to coherently handle complex music, ability to resolve quiet passages, and among other things, the ability to handle large dynamic swings.

 

[shafic]

Prem is one of the very few people who have plumbed the depths of both oceans, Digital as well as Vinyl and can talk about both. His painstaking journey to his present views cannot be ignored. He is talking from experience. He has invested lot of time, energy, efforts in this field.

 

[dheerajin]

If vinyl sounds best to one...that means it is best for them...and it contains 100000kbps of music to them..and IMO..no one should deny that..same goes with other persons who likes digital music and enhances it with source and other things...so no should ask them to boast...its all upto ones appetite to absorb...IMO..there should be talk about the musicality and how he is enjoying his system ..so please dont try to compare between vinyl, CD and PC based system....after listening to MBL I got to know that we are fighting for futile things....MBL is crap when you play bollywood at the same time it is great for instrumental...so pls dont make an argument on this...live and let live..but cables are nowhere in this

 

[prem]

Hi Shafic

Thanks. I have no issues with people having different view points. This hobby being subjective lends itself to different views and beliefs. Where I have a problem is when someone has a condescending, I know it all attitude

 

[prem]

When you'll talk about a A R Rahman recording do you'll even know the amount of digital processing that goes into a song. Every instrument is recorded separately. The singers come individually and just render the song with no accompaniments. Each track then gets digitally processed and mixed. At least in WCM everyone plays together and minimal digital processing is done. The tone and timbre of an instrument is far truer to the original in WCM uNlike in film music

 

[dheerajin]

Oh no not again WCM..[emoji2]

 

[prem]

Maybe WCM stands for World Class Music

 

[jls001]

There should be a war against prejudice and false assertions.

Very well said, Thad.

We all have our prejudices and bigotries, but civilsation demands that we keep them under the surface and in check in the interest of peaceful and harmonious co-existence. If one thinks one has something worthwhile new that one feels magnanimous enough to share with the world, it can be done gently. If others see merit and believe in it, victory is assured (if that's what the "missionary" is looking to notch up). But belittling others' system of beliefs can yield but little and begets hostility. And a condescending attitude is at best pugnacious.

 

[dheerajin]

Correct some belive in missionary position and some in others...so evey one's position shoul be respected[emoji6]

 

[prem]

I started digital in 1988. I have had a 24 year run with digital. Let me take you'll through this journey. A lot of questions will get automatically answered

In the 80s cds used to be mastered with minimal gimmicks. Mixing also used to be analogue. Only the mastering was done in digital. It used to be called AAD. Unfortunately in those days the da converters were not upto the mark. As a result musicality suffered. Separation was limited. Complex passages sounded confused. Vocals sounded dull, etc, etc

To overcome CD player shortcomings it was decided to play with the software. Thus originated concept of digital remastering. Mixing of analogue recordings were now done in digital medium. Concept of no noise came. Separation was enhanced. Certain instruments got more focus in the mixing. First you had 20 bit masters, then 24 bit and so on. This continued through the 90s. Cables, resonance control devices all saw their birth in this period. They served as band aids

In early 2000 a lot of improvements were made to dacs. As a result these processed remastered cds started sounding bad. Vinyl rebirth started. Old cds which were made in the 80s sounded fabulous on modern day dacs. But it did not make much sense to go back for the major labels. Downloads had begun to make a mark. Hence they started concentrating on them. Dac quality has been constantly improving. Now one needs to see what will the majors offer in terms of downloads.

 

[dheerajin]

Analogue was best and anyhow it is the natural thing so it is best and if DAC produces best analogue sound , then it is also best...what matters is musicality..as repeated again..if someone is enjoying the music in any format...then what is the point here to discuss , what is best....everything is subjective in this world...kishore and lata would be same , also sa re ga pa..would be same in any other system..
It is the fault with us audiophiles who experiments with the systems, and comes out saying..now mid range is better but hi range is Compromised...so experiments never ends....actually it is ones midset ,which tells you when to get satisfaction...