How much to tighten your screws?

[Deleted member 15865]

Hi friends,

I recently discovered from experience that it doesn’t help tightening the screws on your cable connectors to the hilt. On the contrary, I have noticed that kind of suppresses the sound and you adversely impact the khanak (what’s the English word?) and airiness of the higher frequencies and the reverb on the bass. This applies to both the amp and speaker ends of the cable and whether one uses bare wire or banana plugs. In case of banana plugs, this applies to both the tightness of the internal screws that hold the wire as well as the tightness of the banana plug itself in the amp and speaker ports.

And that doesn’t mean leaving them loose. That could result in disturbances in the audio. Just don’t tighten them to the max (where you can’t turn any more). Just leave some breathing space in the end.

Of course this is from my own experience and I’d like to hear from more experienced and knowledgeable members on this. My hypothesis is when you tighten to the max, the wires inside tend to compress/deform and that can have an impact on the surface area for the current. But I have seen a remarkable difference in the sound of my system when I corrected it.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Depends on how much contact resistance you are allowing between connections. I try to solder as much as possible.

 

[Ashenden]

Interesting. So it's time to fiddle again

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Interesting. So it's time to fiddle again

Let us know the result.

Depends on how much contact resistance you are allowing between connections. I try to solder as much as possible.

Can you explain this further, Hari? How much contact resistance should be allowed, and why? Is there some optimum here? I don’t quite understand the technicality involved.

Also, I assume soldering would not compress/deform the wires like excessive tightening would (while still ensuring a tight, but inflexible connnection). Is that right?

 

[Ashenden]

^^Silver soldered wires will prevent oxidation of exposed copper strands, which can otherwise degrade sound quality over time (subjective)

 

[firearm12]

Not sure about contact terminals but tightening /loosing screws that hold the speaker/tweeter drivers to the cabinet do change the sound remarkably.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Sachin, any connections when made will have some contact resistance depending upon metal, plating, contacting, soldering, welding etc. It's always beneficial to reduce such contact resistance to bare minimum. Less than 0.1 ohm is what to aim for as even a minor contact resistance of 0.5 ohm can cause +1 dB of loss in signal.

 

[Ashenden]

Let us know the result.

I tried loosening the connectors on both speakers and amp and listened for an hour. I didn’t notice a difference before and after. Even if there was a difference, my hearing may not be sensitive enough to detect it

 

[raghupb]

<snip>
My hypothesis is when you tighten to the max, the wires inside tend to compress/deform and that can have an impact on the surface area for the current. But I have seen a remarkable difference in the sound of my system when I corrected it.

I usually tighten fully and release a quarter or half turn.
When possible, I just do bare wire.
BTW, when I saw your post heading, really expected some audio related psychiatric advice

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[superczar]

Hi friends,

I recently discovered from experience that it doesn’t help tightening the screws on your cable connectors to the hilt. On the contrary, I have noticed that kind of suppresses the sound and you adversely impact the khanak (what’s the English word?) and airiness of the higher frequencies and the reverb on the bass. This applies to both the amp and speaker ends of the cable and whether one uses bare wire or banana plugs. In case of banana plugs, this applies to both the tightness of the internal screws that hold the wire as well as the tightness of the banana plug itself in the amp and speaker ports.

And that doesn’t mean leaving them loose. That could result in disturbances in the audio. Just don’t tighten them to the max (where you can’t turn any more). Just leave some breathing space in the end.

Of course this is from my own experience and I’d like to hear from more experienced and knowledgeable members on this. My hypothesis is when you tighten to the max, the wires inside tend to compress/deform and that can have an impact on the surface area for the current. But I have seen a remarkable difference in the sound of my system when I corrected it.

:O
Sorry to rain on your parade mate - but this absolutely and totally cannot make a difference (unless something is wrong with the amp connectors or elsewhere).
Even if you consider your hypothesis on deformation , it's deformation on 3-4 mm at the tip of a wire that's at least 300X longer.
Once the electrons cross this supposedly deformed entry point, they will happily jump across to the non deformed parts of the remaining 299x and not care two hoots for the deformed entry points...
These electrons are a carefree bunch, I tell you!

 

[Ashenden]

^^ I would prefer to keep an open mind when it comes to evaluating something as subjective as audio which is after all a sensory perception.

On prediction: It is very difficult, and impossible to predict a system governed by non-linear equations, which is what nature is made up of. Even if we take a seemingly simple example of a billiards table with 1 ball and try to predict the motion of a ball when hit, we might assume that with a good mathematical model we would be able to predict the position of the ball several hours into the future. But in reality, this too is a non-linear system with several variables like imperfections on the surface of the ball, the board, air turbulence etc which will make our predictions correct only to a few minutes into the future after hitting the ball. Same applies to weather systems. Even with billion dollars being poured in and tons of data to play around with, we can never model/predict weather patterns in a place to more than a few days ahead. Same applies to other fields like stock markets, spread of epidemic in a population etc. Human brain doesn't like the uncertainty and tends to think in a linear manner, hence this quest for order and control.

Coming back to audio, there is so much of ambiguity in it, which makes it all the more fun. If every outcome was known beforehand, it would be robbed of the enjoyment of discovery. OP has found a noticeable difference, so lets try and see if there is something to it. Peace!

 

[superczar]

^^ I would prefer to keep an open mind when it comes to evaluating something as subjective as audio which is after all a sensory perception.

On prediction: It is very difficult, and impossible to predict a system governed by non-linear equations, which is what nature is made up of. Even if we take a seemingly simple example of a billiards table with 1 ball and try to predict the motion of a ball when hit, we might assume that with a good mathematical model we would be able to predict the position of the ball several hours into the future. But in reality, this too is a non-linear system with several variables like imperfections on the surface of the ball, the board, air turbulence etc which will make our predictions correct only to a few minutes into the future after hitting the ball. Same applies to weather systems. Even with billion dollars being poured in and tons of data to play around with, we can never model/predict weather patterns in a place to more than a few days ahead. Same applies to other fields like stock markets, spread of epidemic in a population etc. Human brain doesn't like the uncertainty and tends to think in a linear manner, hence this quest for order and control.

Coming back to audio, there is so much of ambiguity in it, which makes it all the more fun. If every outcome was known beforehand, it would be robbed of the enjoyment of discovery. OP has found a noticeable difference, so lets try and see if there is something to it. Peace!

That's a great parallel and absolutely true for natural systems that have an almost infinite number of variable affecting the outcome.
An electronic audio reproduction mechanism however is one of the simplest man-made systems with a clearly defined and extremely limited number of variables at play .
If outcome predictability were so much harder to predict fo artificial systems , we would never have been able to put satellites into orbit or a man on the moon - systems that are almost infinitely more complex than a basic 20-20khz reproducer

Going by this line of thought, the trajectory of a lunar lander could go out by a milliradian or two based on the amount of flux used on a solder joint on the controller board thereby sending out a probe to saturn instead of Mars

PS: I don't intend to disrespect another POV , just trying to counter argue based on an objective set of principles

 

[arj]

Sachin , what may be possible is change in conductivity due to fatigue and causing any impact to the crystalline structure of copper. the recommended connectivity approach is tight but not causing fatigue and that why very often connectors are preferred over Bare wire. bananas of course make it easier

but all this is of course jsut the theory

 

[Deleted member 15865]

PS: I don't intend to disrespect another POV , just trying to counter argue based on an objective set of principles

Thanks! It’d help further if the choice of words matches the intention. Currently they come as sort of dismissive of the others’ POV. We are all trying in our own ways to explore the magic of sound reproduction. Some might be scientifically/logically, some experientially/intuitively.

Sachin , what may be possible is change in conductivity due to fatigue and causing any impact to the crystalline structure of copper. the recommended connectivity approach is tight but not causing fatigue and that why very often connectors are preferred over Bare wire. bananas of course make it easier

but all this is of course jsut the theory

And is it possible that some conductors (material or construction) are more susceptible to this fatigue? I use the Van den hul Clearwater cable which I find is more on the delicate side so perhaps it tends to get impacted more (by screwing tight) than some other firmer cable wires?

 

[spirovious]

What l think is when we fully keep it tight,copper strands of wire can get flat or crushed which changes its original round shape.lt can affect little bit.l even read/heard that bass frequencies travel from core and treble from outer surface of wire/strands.Not sure how much its true.

 

[raghupb]

Don't know about how flattening copper can affect sound. There are flat speaker cables in the market.
But yes, physical stress can break strands in multi-core copper.
My mantra is go easy with the tightening, screws or otherwise.
Keep it firm so that the wire makes good contact and can't slip out by accident.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Ashenden]

An electronic audio reproduction mechanism however is one of the simplest man-made systems with a clearly defined and extremely limited number of variables at play .

I don't think it is a simple system. An audio reproduction chain resembles a non-linear system. A speaker giving a flat impedance curve inside an anechoic chamber might end up sounding, bright/warm in a normal room/setting. We can't predict the outcome.

 

[superczar]

I don't think it is a simple system. An audio reproduction chain resembles a non-linear system. A speaker giving a flat impedance curve inside an anechoic chamber might end up sounding, bright/warm in a normal room/setting. We can't predict the outcome.

That's an additional and more complex variable you just added.
Leave aside what happens to the waves once they leave the speakers.
Ceteris Paribus (since the listening environment hasn't changed), the simple system I referred to is the Amplifier taking a differential input, amplifying it and feeding it into say an 8 ohm load - entirely artificial and hence predictable in the relation between the variables that affect it

 

[arj]

What l think is when we fully keep it tight,copper strands of wire can get flat or crushed which changes its original round shape.lt can affect little bit.l even read/heard that bass frequencies travel from core and treble from outer surface of wire/strands.Not sure how much its true.

Its the skin effect but does not really impact the audio frequency range much .
Maybe the effect you see is the change in Capacitance due to flat conductors parallel to each other and that can impact sound, but it also depends on the amp. Eg the Polk Cobra has such a high capacitance that its known as a amp destroyer for some amps which cannot handle the capacitance.
Nordost as well as alphacore, polk cobra etc use that.

And is it possible that some conductors (material or construction) are more susceptible to this fatigue? I use the Van den hul Clearwater cable which I find is more on the delicate side so perhaps it tends to get impacted more (by screwing tight) than some other firmer cable wires?

Are these bare wires or Spades ?

 

[Ashenden]

BTW, when I saw your post heading, really expected some audio related psychiatric advice

After doing Sachin's little tweak here, my OCD forced me to tighten it back again. Now the only loose screws that remain are the ones inside my head