How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated Ampli

Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

Aplgs

for a) double post b) to OP slight thread drift (I promise it is for a reason) c) for making a mildly different point (but I have no reason or need or desire to rullfe any feathers)

Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up - Page 357

Fourth, work way harder at actively welcoming the newcomers. Okay, reviewers and community leaders, this ones for you. Why are there no Getting Started sections? Why are there no subforums dedicated specifically to entry-level gear. Why are there no dedicated Hey, Im new and I want to learn sections with people who like talking to newcomers? Yes, I know, once youve grown into the great throbbing Donovans Brain of audio, talking to the proles may be tiringbut you know what? There are plenty of people who wouldnt mind helping. We can do a much better job at welcoming people in to the party, giving them enough info to get started, and letting them decide if audiophilia is for them. If it isnt, hey, no harm no foul. But if were passively discouraging them by being so inward-focused, our growth will be stalled.​

Yes I'd have really liked to buy those door size magnepans that were on sale for a price that I could have sprung for. But that meant buying a bigger amp than one which I currently have and etc etc. I'd never have any music going if I waited forever. And some part of me probably does not really regret that I will never have say a Rolls Royce silver spirit. I simply don't want one.

You can have good sound on a budget, if you do it right. And it is very easy to do it right, It probably was not say 10 years back. There is no big dark black magic to setting up two speakers and getting them to sing in a small room, no biggie, as long as you don't expect a component, or a wire, or internet reviews to fix it for you

There are people who will / can / have do it different (valves and LPs and esoteric stuff). If you already know (or want to figure out for yourself) what you are doing it might be easy and enjoyable. It is not for everyone, it need not be The important and operative part is it is not a requirement.

(a brief aside, I ride a cro moly single speed bicycle to work and hugely enjoy it, I however do not recommend it as the mode of choice in transport, it is in the different strokes for different folks category)

Is it not possible to put together a basic start up rig that sounds real <bleep> good with the cheap shit like a entry level marantz amp a POS budget DAC and cheap entry level HT speakers like a Dali Z5 ?

I assure you it is.

<hops of soap box, lightly>

Just to add if I had the money I'd probably buy a Yggy, and then if I did not hear enough of a difference, change the speakers, and then if I did not hear enough of a difference, may be buy a Ragnarok. Valves do not interest me. That is a very far cry from saying they are lousy. Just saying it is not the only way to go.

ciao
gr
 
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Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

I think you are preaching to the choir.
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

New to this forum. Hello folks.
Been listening to music for a long, long time.
Over the years the equipment has also varied (good and mediocre).

Now to the dilemma being faced the poster of the original question.
How to match sources to amps to speakers so that CD/HiRes music sounds 'fantastic'.

Here is my zen approach to listening to music.
If you like the music/vocal content, sound quality is secondary.
No matter what you will listen to it, even on your tinny phone speakers.
OK now that is out of the way. You want to sit down, listen to music at your home alone. Believe me music is very personal.

The most important component in the chain are the speakers.
They create sound that you ears take in and shot it to the brain.

* Take your content, walk into many, many stores and listen to many, many speakers; dealers will always have good setups to drive speakers. Here is what I did and still do during an audition; close my eyes and check if the singer/musician is playing for an audience of one. If a set of speakers do this, check if it fits your budget (less 40% of total)
* Check these specs on the set of speakers that appeal to you
Rated wattage, nominal impedance, sensitivity; these are the ones that matter to the amp
* Choose an amp can put out at least 60% of rated speaker wattage
* analog amps are cleaner (less stages)
* most amps are happy with 8-ohm loads; if your chosen speakers are 6/4 ohms the amp needs to work harder
* sensitivity or efficiency is in dB (higher the number better; but just a thumb rule)
* for sources, choose one that will play an put out both analog and digital
* connect the source to amp using analog if you like the way it sounds
* otherwise take the digital out and pass it thru a DAC
* another thing, new speakers take time to sound 'good'; allow for at least 40-100 hours; this is where buying demo speakers (2nd hand) comes in

From personal experience I am happy with Marantz. I have a 2-ch amp for music and AVR for movies.

Hope this helps; be patient. It is OK to be selfish during an audition. No matter what is on the spec, no matter what the dealer says, the sound should appeal to you.

Regards,
Raghu
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

You shouldn't find any problem finding a matching amp. Most of the speakers have good speaker efficiency/sensitivity. To give a ballpark figure, anything above 86 db or 87 db sensitivity will work for a low powered amps (like 40 watts amp). Speaker sensitivity will be part of the documented technical specifications of any speaker. I have seen a 30 watt NAD amp driving a speaker with sensitivity of 86 db.

There are two schools of thought. One believes in source first, but the other believes in speakers first. Any way, I am not an expert to tell which path to follow. Probably, you start with auditioning speakers as keith_correa suggested. Like he said, you need not worry too much about impedance/power matching. Trust your ears. Of course you can have some rough ballpark figures for amp watts (min 40 watts) and speakers sensitivity/impedance (min 86 db and 8 ohms).

Hi Shanmune. Did a lot of reading in the net. I notice that you never menetioned anything about the speakers power rating but gave more focus on impedance. I have a few questions here..

Shouldnt we consider the speakers power rating as well? I have read as follows

While choosing am amplifier I have read that its power rating should be 10% or 1.5 time to 2.5 times that the power rating of the speaker. I have also read another opinion that the speakers power should be 2 times than that of the amplifier(Speaker Selection and Amplifier Power Ratings). Which is true? What blows out the speaker? Lack of power or overdose of power?

Also, What makes the power amplifier to clip? Is it increasing the volume?
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

The wattage of the amp is not an indicative of the sound quality. Like brother (I presume) shanmune has explained, you should focus, if at all, on the sensitivity of the speaker and impedance while matching speakers to amp. That is not to say that the other figures don't matter, but for a layperson, like me, these should give you a fair idea of the technical match. Whether they match sonically is left to the ear of the beholder.

Now impedance is not static but most speaker specs speak of the nominal impedance which is usually 8 ohms. This goes up or down based on the frequency which is based on the type of music. For instance, western classical music, especially a full symphony would have a lot of transients which put different loads on the speaker and the amp. At times the impedance could fall to 2 ohms that in turn demands high current from the amp. In this case, the headroom of the amp becomes vital. Typically, the higher the wattage of the amp, the higher the potential for headroom. This may not be the scenario in case you are more into say Hindustani where such transients are not common.

The other aspect is the sensitivity of the speaker. Typically, the lower the sensitivity, the more power it would need. So a speaker rated at 85db would need a heftier amp than the one rated at 91. This also has a bearing on how loud you play. If you like cranking up, you'd need more wattage. Bass heavy music would also need hefty power.

You can use these to shortlist your potential matches but as I said earlier, whether the sound of the amp/spkr combo is to your liking would depend mainly on you...

So this means the power rating of the amplifier should be definitely greater than that of the speaker. Found a very interesting article in the net which says exactly the opposite. Would like to know your thoughts.

Speaker Selection and Amplifier Power Ratings
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

New to this forum. Hello folks.
Been listening to music for a long, long time.
Over the years the equipment has also varied (good and mediocre).

Now to the dilemma being faced the poster of the original question.
How to match sources to amps to speakers so that CD/HiRes music sounds 'fantastic'.

Here is my zen approach to listening to music.
If you like the music/vocal content, sound quality is secondary.
No matter what you will listen to it, even on your tinny phone speakers.
OK now that is out of the way. You want to sit down, listen to music at your home alone. Believe me music is very personal.

The most important component in the chain are the speakers.
They create sound that you ears take in and shot it to the brain.

* Take your content, walk into many, many stores and listen to many, many speakers; dealers will always have good setups to drive speakers. Here is what I did and still do during an audition; close my eyes and check if the singer/musician is playing for an audience of one. If a set of speakers do this, check if it fits your budget (less 40% of total)
* Check these specs on the set of speakers that appeal to you
Rated wattage, nominal impedance, sensitivity; these are the ones that matter to the amp
* Choose an amp can put out at least 60% of rated speaker wattage
* analog amps are cleaner (less stages)
* most amps are happy with 8-ohm loads; if your chosen speakers are 6/4 ohms the amp needs to work harder
* sensitivity or efficiency is in dB (higher the number better; but just a thumb rule)
* for sources, choose one that will play an put out both analog and digital
* connect the source to amp using analog if you like the way it sounds
* otherwise take the digital out and pass it thru a DAC
* another thing, new speakers take time to sound 'good'; allow for at least 40-100 hours; this is where buying demo speakers (2nd hand) comes in

From personal experience I am happy with Marantz. I have a 2-ch amp for music and AVR for movies.

Hope this helps; be patient. It is OK to be selfish during an audition. No matter what is on the spec, no matter what the dealer says, the sound should appeal to you.

Regards,
Raghu

Thanks Raghu Really helpful mate
 
Insane test : Marantz Pm 6004 vs Quad 34 + 306 ( and Yam AS 500 ) on B&W 603 tw

Some months ago I did few measures: CD PinkF Dark Side otm - absolutely high volumes
( there were no neighbors! ), with vol knob of Marantz 6004 at 15 o'clock , (max is 17 hours) and source direct ; in the peaks I digitally tested (average) : Vmax = 14 V/ch and Imax = 1.7 A, for a maximum power of almost 25 W/ch; I generally listen to 9:30 hours max, with my wife coming & asking me for a lower volumes....I've to say that, while the Quad 34 + 306 that I owned before for 20 years , with the same B&W towers, and at a little lower volume, was going in protection (I had to unlock it using the back button) and also warmed up a bit on the smart front radiator, the Marantz instead was almost cold and never gone + in protection. The Quad was also sounding a little harsh and with harder highs, at these levels, while the Pm 6004 has retained a good liquidity on the mid & highs, which were still confortable...; anyway, in everydays normal cd listening, at 9:30, I get only an output of 1 W/ch max on peaks, more punchy bass and similar mid vs Quad!
--------------------------
Yam as 500 in direct comparison with pm 6004 shows more dry, although more diffuse and detailed high frequencies, similar bass punch, but more fatiguing listening overall, for me. I tested this AS 500 for a week at home , but then I changed with Marantz PM 6004 .Yam AS 500 is a very complete amp, but doesn't meet my preferences for a warm sound with my B&W; is a beautifull vintage looking amp, with a lot of features, but no good vol and tone knobs and a delicate front plate for fingerprints when you touch ...Yam as 500 has loudness too and in direct comparison with pm 6004 shows more dry, although more diffuse and detailed high frequencies, similar bass punch, but more fatiguing listening overall, for me. Marantz drives my old B&W 603, like 684, and a ASW 610 sub linked at spkB - highlevel - my room= 30 mq and 90 mc with ease. Just a few thoughts . bye
 
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Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

Listening experience is best only in a small zone (not small space/area).
The zone roughly is defined by the equilateral triangle formed by the L/R speaker and you.
Many times it is not possible to sit in one place and listen to music. You may be multi-tasking. If you do carve some time out for a sit-down or 'bhaitak' then here are numbers to consider. Note these are for music listening, not for movies where you want explosions to rattle your windows.

Room size, amp power and speaker ratings
12' x 12' - small area, speakers 10' apart, amp power 50+ Wpc, speaker rating (70+ W, 88+ dB SPL)
12' x 18' - mid-size area , speakers 10' apart, amp power 60+ Wpc, speaker rating (80+ W, 88+ dB SPL)
18' x 24' - large area, speakers 15' apart, amp power 70+ Wpc, speaker rating (100+ W, 90+ db SPL)

These are the bare min numbers to make music listening pleasurable. Anything more you are nitpicking but it can be a bonus. Note the slightly higher rating of speakers to prevent accidental blow out. Blow out occurs when a speaker is driven to levels more than it can handle.

Loudness/volume
My thumb rule is any amp should make music come alive at 35% of its max output (vaguely corresponds to volume in analog amps). Continuous high volume can lead to listening fatigue aka headache and hearing loss.

Amp ratings
Look for
20Hz - 20KHz continuously/simultaneously driven at 8-ohm number (Watts)
THD < 0.1 at the above condition
Weight (heavier amps have a good power supply, large coils and capacitors to handle transients and peaks)

Speakers (see room size above)
Small area - 2 way book shelf will do; if you have the money buy towers
Mid-size area - 2.5 or 3 way towers
Large area - 3 way towers
Note some speakers need space around them (specially at the back, if they have rear bass reflex). Generally good to place speakers so that the baffles are at least 12" away from walls.
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

Hi Shanmune. Did a lot of reading in the net. I notice that you never menetioned anything about the speakers power rating but gave more focus on impedance. I have a few questions here..

Shouldnt we consider the speakers power rating as well? I have read as follows

While choosing am amplifier I have read that its power rating should be 10% or 1.5 time to 2.5 times that the power rating of the speaker. I have also read another opinion that the speakers power should be 2 times than that of the amplifier(Speaker Selection and Amplifier Power Ratings). Which is true? What blows out the speaker? Lack of power or overdose of power?

Also, What makes the power amplifier to clip? Is it increasing the volume?

Power rating of a speaker tells you how much max power the speaker can take without damaging the driver. It is not very much important. Most of the good bookshelf speakers are rated around 100w (minimum) and above. It is impractical to have amps with 2 x 100 watts. So this requirement of amp having double the power is not logical at all. It is the speaker's impedance and sensitivity which determines the load on the amp. You can have a 200 watts speaker being driven by a 40 or 50 watts amp and that is perfectly okay as long as the impedance doesn't load the amp.

If you understand what sensitivity is, you get a clear picture. Lets take an example - A speaker with 86 db sensitivity. What it means ? If you feed 1 watt of electrical power to the speakers, it can produce the sound at 86 db (sound level measured at 1 meter away from the speaker).

With 2 watts -> 89 db
4 watts ->92 db
8 watts ->95 db
16 watts -> 98 db

In fact 98 db (with a meager power of 16 watts) will be too loud for a small/medium sized rooms. So lets forget about touching 100 watts or 200 watts.

Amp clipping happens if the speaker impedance dips to a very low value (in rush current becomes too high). So if the amp power section is not strong enough to meet the current demand, clipping occurs.

So look mainly for sensitivity/impedance and nothing more than that.
As I said before, I have seen a 30 watt amp driving a speaker (rated at 150 watts) with 86 db sensitivity and 6 ohm impedance and there was no issue at all.

I understand your curiosity to know all these things and nothing wrong in it. Finally, don't give too much emphasis on these things. Just have some rough guidance values (amp watts, speaker impedance/sensitivity) and look mainly for audition. It is your ears which tell you how good an amp/speaker combination is.

- Just go to as many dealers,
- audition different speakers/amps,
- try to listen at various volume levels (if you are so concerned about the amp driving a particular speaker)
- make a judgement through your ears.
 
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Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

Amp clipping happens if the speaker impedance dips to a very low value (in rush current becomes too high). So if the amp power section is not strong enough to meet the current demand, clipping occurs.



.


Thanks. Yes reading a lot makes me curious.
In what practical case impedance of a speaker drops to a much lesser value than the nominal rating. ?

Also how is increasing the volume level related to power or impedance etc
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

Thanks. Yes reading a lot makes me curious.
In what practical case impedance of a speaker drops to a much lesser value than the nominal rating. ?

Also how is increasing the volume level related to power or impedance etc

The speaker impedance is not fixed. It keeps varying between min and max according to the input signal frequency. At lower frequency, the impedance curve dips momentarily. Or when a piece of music passes through a high passage, the impedance curve dips momentarily. This dip in impedance will force the amp to produce more in rush current. This momentary impedance dip should be okay for most of the amps (in supplying the current) since the duration is very small. Now, how far the impedance can dip further ? The clue is in the nominal impedance.

Higher the nominal impedance - the impedance dip will be small.
Let me put a very simple example just for an explanation:-
1. Speaker with nominal impedance of 8 ohm-10 ohms (max) 4 ohms (min).
2. Speaker with nominal impedance of 6 ohm-10 ohms (max) 3 ohms (min).
....

The impedance change will happen irrespective of the volume level. At higher volume levels, the amp is forced to produce more power for increasing the decibel level. If impedance dips happens around the same time, the load on the amp increases further to supply more current/power. If you want more decibel level with lesser power amp, then you should choose a speaker with higher sensitivity. Speakers having sensitivity > 86 db and > 6 ohms nominal impedance should be fine for any 30 watts or 40 watts amp.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, to achieve the sound level of 98 db (from a speaker of 86 db sensitivity), just 16 watts is more than enough. And that 98 db will be too loud for any small to medium sized rooms. That is why people stress that one shouldn't be too specific about these parameters (impedance, amp power, etc..).
 
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Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

The speaker impedance is not fixed. It keeps varying between min and max according to the input signal frequency. At lower frequency, the impedance curve dips momentarily. Or when a piece of music passes through a high passage, the impedance curve dips momentarily. This dip in impedance will force the amp to produce more in rush current. This momentary impedance dip should be okay for most of the amps (in supplying the current) since the duration is very small. Now, how far the impedance can dip further ? The clue is in the nominal impedance.

Higher the nominal impedance - the impedance dip will be small.
Let me put a very simple example just for an explanation:-
1. Speaker with nominal impedance of 8 ohm-10 ohms (max) 4 ohms (min).
2. Speaker with nominal impedance of 6 ohm-10 ohms (max) 3 ohms (min).
....

The impedance change will happen irrespective of the volume level. At higher volume levels, the amp is forced to produce more power for increasing the decibel level. If impedance dips happens around the same time, the load on the amp increases further to supply more current/power. If you want more decibel level with lesser power amp, then you should choose a speaker with higher sensitivity. Speakers having sensitivity > 86 db and > 6 ohms nominal impedance should be fine for any 30 watts or 40 watts amp.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, to achieve the sound level of 98 db (from a speaker of 86 db sensitivity), just 16 watts is more than enough. And that 98 db will be too loud for any small to medium sized rooms. That is why people stress that one shouldn't be too specific about these parameters (impedance, amp power, etc..).

Thanks for explaining in detail.:)

So the loudness of the speaker only depends on the sensitivity and power rating of the amplifier. What significance does the power rating of the speaker has? Sorry if this is a stupid question... :sad:
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

The speaker impedance is not fixed. It keeps varying between min and max according to the input signal frequency. At lower frequency, the impedance curve dips momentarily. Or when a piece of music passes through a high passage, the impedance curve dips momentarily. This dip in impedance will force the amp to produce more in rush current. This momentary impedance dip should be okay for most of the amps (in supplying the current) since the duration is very small. Now, how far the impedance can dip further ? The clue is in the nominal impedance.

Higher the nominal impedance - the impedance dip will be small.
Let me put a very simple example just for an explanation:-
1. Speaker with nominal impedance of 8 ohm-10 ohms (max) 4 ohms (min).
2. Speaker with nominal impedance of 6 ohm-10 ohms (max) 3 ohms (min).
....

The impedance change will happen irrespective of the volume level. At higher volume levels, the amp is forced to produce more power for increasing the decibel level. If impedance dips happens around the same time, the load on the amp increases further to supply more current/power. If you want more decibel level with lesser power amp, then you should choose a speaker with higher sensitivity. Speakers having sensitivity > 86 db and > 6 ohms nominal impedance should be fine for any 30 watts or 40 watts amp.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, to achieve the sound level of 98 db (from a speaker of 86 db sensitivity), just 16 watts is more than enough. And that 98 db will be too loud for any small to medium sized rooms. That is why people stress that one shouldn't be too specific about these parameters (impedance, amp power, etc..).

One more clarification.. SO clipping in an amp is a combined result of impedence dip and increasing volume isnt it?

Impedenace dip will cause the amp to give more current/power; also increasing the volume also force the amp to give more current/power.

So to conclude Can I say if you try to increasing the volume of a low frequency signal(More bass, heavy metal) thats when the amplifier clips ??
 
Re: How to choose the Integrated Amplifier and speakers for a particular Integrated A

Thanks for explaining in detail.:)

So the loudness of the speaker only depends on the sensitivity and power rating of the amplifier. What significance does the power rating of the speaker has? Sorry if this is a stupid question... :sad:

Power rating indicates how much power the speaker can be fed without damaging its internals. So it (power rating) is not that the speaker will draw/demand that much power from the amp. Imagine like this - Speaker is like a big vessel container where you can pour just few liters of water or more water to make it full. If you try to pour more beyond its capacity, the vessel may break.

One more clarification.. SO clipping in an amp is a combined result of impedence dip and increasing volume isnt it?

Impedenace dip will cause the amp to give more current/power; also increasing the volume also force the amp to give more current/power.

So to conclude Can I say if you try to increasing the volume of a low frequency signal(More bass, heavy metal) thats when the amplifier clips ??
Yes - Provided your speaker impedance dips beyond a point and you have set the volume at a very crazy level that can damage your ears. If you have a bigger amp, that may not be an issue. If you have a speaker with very good nominal impedance/sensitivity, then even your low powered amp will not clip.
 
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