Improving the sonic quality of a Stereo setup - Room equalization vs Tweaking

[superczar]

This post is not meant for the lucky few who have the resources and inclination for setting up a near perfect listening room (with the right acoustic treatment) and the means to use individually calibrated reference grade speakers and amplifiers.
This is meant for everyone else who have to live with acoustic imperfections in a room and sonic imbalances even between their L/R speakers (i.e pretty much any speaker south of 10L)

I have been an inactive member on this forum for almost 10+ years and over time, I have seen a large number of threads where FMs have tried to improve their listening experience by either reinvesting in speakers or amplifiers that suit their preferred sonic signature and /or tweak their existing setup with changes to speaker cables/ power conditioners as well as a few who have used more exotic tweaks.

Yet I have seen very few, if any, threads outside of HT setups where FMs have tried using IRE (In room equalisation) treatments.
Speaking from my own experience, using IRE has helped me improve my setups by a very large magnitude at a cost that has ranged from a fraction of what other changes would have required to near zero

I currently use

• Audyssey MultEQ32 (for my HT that doubles up for stereo
• Anthem Room correction (for my bedroom stereo)
• REW with PEQ adjustments (For my Study/home office)

In all the cases (and especially for the 2nd one) ,I have seen a way beyond subtle change in the imaging, soundstage and overall quality of reproduction
While happy to share the details if anyone is interested, at present, I am merely curious to understand why IRE is not the preferred mechanism for since improvements vs other changes.
Also,I have not had any experience with DIRAC and some other algorithms (particularly Trinnov) and would be curious to learn about how the experience has been for others who may be using them

 

[Ashenden]

Anthem Room correction (for my bedroom stereo)

For Anthem room correction for 2 channel audio, do you use the phone application? If so, will the microphone on the iPhone be good enough? Does this work only with Paradigm products?

 

[liverpool_for_life]

[...] I am merely curious to understand why IRE is not the preferred mechanism for since improvements vs other changes.

IMO, stereo folks eschew Room EQ far more than HT folks. Purity of signal and all that. Add the "excitement" that buying of new gear provides and you have the perfect recipe for endless upgrades chasing that elusive level of satisfaction.

 

[superczar]

For Anthem room correction for 2 channel audio, do you use the phone application? If so, will the microphone on the iPhone be good enough? Does this work only with Paradigm products?

Works for supported Paradigm and Anthem products -
The Mic I used was the calibrated mic that came with ARC

IMO, stereo folks eschew Room EQ far more than HT folks. Purity of signal and all that. Add the "excitement" that buying of new gear provides and you have the perfect recipe for endless upgrades chasing that elusive level of satisfaction.

I guess so.

Other than the speakers themselves, this probably has the largest impact on the clarity and soundstage.
The difference it makes is large and clear and doesn't require extensive A/B testing to say spot that elusive extra bit of sibilance at 37 seconds into the song

 

[arj]

IMO, stereo folks eschew Room EQ far more than HT folks. Purity of signal and all that. Add the "excitement" that buying of new gear provides and you have the perfect recipe for endless upgrades chasing that elusive level of satisfaction.

totally !
But more than buying new toys its setting it up which give a kick. placement in the room, toe in, vibration control, power etc... personally i like neither, especially EQ. i really believe that most issues can be taken out of the equation with setup and only if it comes where you cannot that you try some simple DIY treatment mostly around diffusing reflections. the challenge begins when you cannot move your speaker out and in that case the first principle is always get the speaker for your room. but a little big of nice diffusers n walls never hurt..and neither a cardboard box or potted plant in the corners.
EQ, the little bit i tried always messes the sound and Id rather have a 50Hz boom than lose any harmonics

 

[superczar]

totally !
But more than buying new toys its setting it up which give a kick. placement in the room, toe in, vibration control, power etc... personally i like neither, especially EQ. i really believe that most issues can be taken out of the equation with setup and only if it comes where you cannot that you try some simple DIY treatment mostly around diffusing reflections. the challenge begins when you cannot move your speaker out and in that case the first principle is always get the speaker for your room. but a little big of nice diffusers n walls never hurt..and neither a cardboard box or potted plant in the corners.
EQ, the little bit i tried always messes the sound and Id rather have a 50Hz boom than lose any harmonics

There was a point in time when no self respecting audiophile would be caught without a nice parametric equalizer
Unfortunately the newer equalizers don't look good like them (being invisible after all)

Fixing the room is always the best course of action - but a well resolving equalizer will also (mostly) fix any inherent imbalances in the drivers themselves
If I may ask, what EQ did you try?
Older low resolution versions of Audyssey are notorious for messing up the sound
If you have a PC as a source, it may be worth trying REW which is practically free!

 

[Ashenden]

I don’t see why using EQ is looked down upon. Around 80% of what I like listening to (70-80s music) aren’t well recorded and can be harsh sounding if played without tone controls. Even on well recorded albums aren’t the mixing engineers playing with lots of EQ before it’s released to public?

 

[arj]

There was a point in time when no self respecting audiophile would be caught without a nice parametric equalizer
Unfortunately the newer equalizers don't look good like them (being invisible after all)

Fixing the room is always the best course of action - but a well resolving equalizer will also (mostly) fix any inherent imbalances in the drivers themselves
If I may ask, what EQ did you try?
Older low resolution versions of Audyssey are notorious for messing up the sound
If you have a PC as a source, it may be worth trying REW which is practically free!

Not sure on the imbalances in the driver, no decent speakers should have that problem and most half decent recordings are recorded such that it sounds good on a studio speaker without any EQ so if there is something wrong it will be with the setup.

I had a behringer DEQ2496 which I was using to do some equalisation for my then setup in the digital domain and which had 2 rel subs but n the end it messed the sound from a timbre and timing perspective so stopped it.

 

[arj]

I don’t see why using EQ is looked down upon. Around 80% of what I like listening to (70-80s music) aren’t well recorded and can be harsh sounding if played without tone controls. Even on well recorded albums aren’t the mixing engineers playing with lots of EQ before it’s released to public?

Its not about looking down in fact the CDs for Hindi 70-80 are bad recordings and its cheaper to EQ than spending that much more on a source to make it right. in fact my reason to move to Vinyl was that i did not like the Bollywood songs on CD !

If you are using EQ to change the sound its different and ones choice, but if it is to remove room issues, better to try simpler methods like placement tweaks first.

 

[Ashenden]

Its not about looking down in fact the CDs for Hindi 70-80 are bad recordings and its cheaper to EQ than spending that much more on a source to make it right. in fact my reason to move to Vinyl was that i did not like the Bollywood songs on CD !

If you are using EQ to change the sound its different and ones choice, but if it is to remove room issues, better to try simpler methods like placement tweaks first.

Yes. Agreed. Vinyl sounds best for that era. Getting the records is the issue for a lazy audiophile like me

 

[arj]

Yes. Agreed. Vinyl sounds best for that era. Getting the records is the issue for a lazy audiophile like me

its not easy getting a vinyl rig right ! but then due to that it kept upgraditis out and i realized my Amp and transport are 10 years old, Dac is more than15 years old, speakers are 5 years and phono around 4 and I am actually happy with them all ..so only play with setups, some cables and turntable cartridges !

 

[Ashenden]

its not easy getting a vinyl rig right ! but then due to that it kept upgraditis out and i realized my Amp and transport are 10 years old, Dac is more than15 years old, speakers are 5 years and phono around 4 and I am actually happy with them all ..so only play with setups, some cables and turntable cartridges !

Ok. I don’t touch my rig unless something is broken. So far that has helped in saving a lot of time, fiddling around, the restlessness it brings about and is in line with my laziness

 

[superczar]

Not sure on the imbalances in the driver, no decent speakers should have that problem and most half decent recordings are recorded such that it sounds good on a studio speaker without any EQ so if there is something wrong it will be with the setup.

I had a behringer DEQ2496 which I was using to do some equalisation for my then setup in the digital domain and which had 2 rel subs but n the end it messed the sound from a timbre and timing perspective so stopped it.

Studio speakers in a sonic treated room will almost always give a great soundstage because of the massive difference between a specialised room and a normal physical space in a house.
I have never really used a physical PEQ so can't really comment but doing PEQ by hand is an incredibly hard task


I was instead talking about consumer/prosumer Oriented impulse response filters that take the guesswork out of equalisation.
With the caveat that low resolution filters can do more harm than good (e.g Audyssey MultEQ or vanilla XT , vanilla YPAO or MCACC etc)

As for sonic difference between pairs, take a look at the graphs for the L/R speakers I. posted in the thread below - ignore the section under 1K as the room acoustics would cause deviations but even above that, there certainly are more than subtle differences.
either on account of a Bad Mic (unlikely) or subtle variations between drivers (likely IMO)

Audyssey MultEQ32 vs Anthem Room Correction - A quasi scientific test

I use Audyssey MultEQ32 correction for my HT setup and Anthem Room correction (ARC) for my bedroom stereo. Subjectively, I find the ARC setup to sound better for music but then it is not a fair comparison as both setups are completely different and the ARC / Audyssey difference is not the only...

www.hifivision.com

The speakers in question aren't top of the line of course but are still well rated mainstream speakers.

If your setup relies on a dedicated listening room with all the works, you probably do not need any equalisation -
I am more of someone who prefers a good sound envelope that delivers decent SQ everywhere

In any case,I have ordered another ARC enabled pre-amp for another setup where the room acoustics are actually ridiculously bad so that will be a true test for REQ

 

[liverpool_for_life]

EQ, the little bit i tried always messes the sound and Id rather have a 50Hz boom than lose any harmonics

You may be surprised by how much detail you are in fact losing because of the untamed "boominess".

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Other than the speakers themselves, this probably has the largest impact on the clarity and soundstage.
The difference it makes is large and clear and doesn't require extensive A/B testing to say spot that elusive extra bit of sibilance at 37 seconds into the song

Agree with all of this. It has been my experience however that room treatment with room EQ (the icing on the proverbial cake) is likely to yield the best results. For those with setups where room treatment is not an option (WAF etc.), I concur that room EQ will produce audible (and likely positive) differences compared to any equipment change.

 

[arj]

You may be surprised by how much detail you are in fact losing because of the untamed "boominess".

i removed a large extent by pulling the speakers to 1/3rd room length

 

[liverpool_for_life]

i removed a large extent by pulling the speakers to 1/3rd room length

Good for you, but I was responding to what you said before:

Id rather have a 50Hz boom than lose any harmonics

My only point was that you'd indeed lose harmonics if you had a 50Hz boom.

Also, I'm very wary of claims of loss of detail when using EQ. In fact, the reverse ought to be true. You should be hearing more detail because you've flattened your response out more than before.

 

[arj]

Good for you, but I was responding to what you said before:



My only point was that you'd indeed lose harmonics if you had a 50Hz boom.

Also, I'm very wary of claims of loss of detail when using EQ. In fact, the reverse ought to be true. You should be hearing more detail because you've flattened your response out more than before.

I will not argue with that since i am not really very knowledgeable in that area !

My concern is not really about the fundamental frequency, which could become better in separation, but about the harmonics ie if we do suppress any 50Hz fundamental the subsequent harmonics would be subdued but since there is no room support to boost the harmonics may be lower and effect the tone and timbre.

 

[superczar]

i removed a large extent by pulling the speakers to 1/3rd room length

@arj

From what I could surmise, your setup seems to fall in the dedicated high end stereo bracket.
My suggestion/recommendation is more for regular setups where people are spending a good amount of time, effort and money into tweaking their cables/Interconnects/DACs/Amps indefinitely and in such scenarios, I 'd say IRE would yield far more immediate and tangible results - but for some reason, IRE does not get the attention it deserves.

I also maintain that a good source combined with good speakers and IRE is enough and more for most entry to mid level requirements as long as the other components (Amp/speakers/Interconnects) are of a minimum acceptable standard

I get it when people with $10000+ speakers and amps are trying to tweak other aspects to extract the (possible) small benefits they would yield but I find it very odd when $500-1000 speakers are being coupled with fancy cables and DACs running into a cost that's more or the same as the speakers

 

[arj]

@arj

From what I could surmise, your setup seems to fall in the dedicated high end stereo bracket.
My suggestion/recommendation is more for regular setups where people are spending a good amount of time, effort and money into tweaking their cables/Interconnects/DACs/Amps indefinitely and in such scenarios, I 'd say IRE would yield far more immediate and tangible results - but for some reason, IRE does not get the attention it deserves.

I also maintain that a good source combined with good speakers and IRE is enough and more for most entry to mid level requirements as long as the other components (Amp/speakers/Interconnects) are of a minimum acceptable standard

I get it when people with $10000+ speakers and amps are trying to tweak other aspects to extract the (possible) small benefits they would yield but I find it very odd when $500-1000 speakers are being coupled with fancy cables and DACs running into a cost that's more or the same as the speakers

I would not call my setup high end but yes i did manage a dedicated audio space with some amount of flexibility to play around . My point was not to Not use EQ. but that is something you do after other options .

I do understand constraints which might prevent the above..and if its really bad the sequence would be treatment and EQ as a last resort. But yes treatments are not that easy.