Recently got the 2006 release of the Proprius 30th anniversary CD set form the UK. Just heard it again. Impossible to believe it was recorded in such difficult circumstances!! Simply amazing!!
Indian Classical music - is there anything called audiophile quality?
- Thread starter Essarr
- Start date
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Yes, I meant Balamuralikrishna.
As to complaining to the artists, in this instance, I find that so many of his CDs have this artifical reverb added that I suspect that he likes it! There are too many senior artists who have no idea of microphone technique on the stage, let alone technicalities in the studio, but, of course, according to their view, their fiddling and instructions to the engineers is all essential and based in the wisdom of their decades of experience. Nobody ever had the guts to tell them they were wrong, way back then, and they certainly don't now that they have achieved god-like status!
I do think that BMK is a genius (happy that your opinions/tastes differ!) but I have had the mentioned problems with his CDs, and find him to be a fiddler (microphone, etc) on stage to an annoying degree. The last couple of times that I saw him I got the impression that he was rather bored with the whole business of performing, even though his voice is still amazing. He is very old, though --- even compared to me!
(for the record, I am a R Vedavalli fan, to the point of devotion, considering her concerts to be the most amazing experiences I have ever had in any music genre. Essarr, do you attend many concerts in Chennai? Do say hello; I am fairly recognisable in a crowd. Maybe I know you already
)hydra said:
I'm still working on this. I learnt from hifi/audio sources that a) reflected sound is the biggest demon, and b) sometimes even a small move or change of position can make a big difference to sound quality and c) the highs are more directional than the lows and have a much lesser spread from the speakers.
I combine this with wandering around to see where suits best. Sometimes it is better to sit near a side wall than to suffer the reflections from it; sometimes it is better to sit close to the front and try to get more direct sound than amplified sound; sometimes one can substantially reduce the volume reaching the ear from a speaker by sitting side-on to it. Always, cotton wool can be used in the ear to reduce volume and soften hardness. A loose wool earplug just takes the edge off slightly too loud music.
It's a research in itself!
Guess the answer lies in your question, with so many live performances why do you need recorded music? if one whishes we can always go for a live performance round the year!
Not sure if this is entirely true, AIR has been documenting and preserving our musical heritage http://allindiaradio.gov.in/Oppurtunities/Music/Pages/Music.aspx
They also put out sales of Indian classical music from time to time.
They put out ads in newspaper and if you happen to listen to AIR/Aakashvani they advertise onair aswell.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...ings-of-mallikarjun-mansur/article4545972.ece
Riding on AIR wave | Business Standard News
There is also some good information about AIR CD's in our forum here http://www.hifivision.com/music/19046-all-india-radio-released-cd-dvd-tape-archives.html
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...ings-of-mallikarjun-mansur/article4545972.ece
Riding on AIR wave | Business Standard News
There is also some good information about AIR CD's in our forum here http://www.hifivision.com/music/19046-all-india-radio-released-cd-dvd-tape-archives.html
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Dear thx911,
The intention of my post was merely to find out if there was any quality recordings of Indian classical music in India. Diverge as much as you wish, but I will still take the time to answer you questions.
"Guess the answer lies in your question, with so many live performances why do you need recorded music?"
To answer your question, first and foremost, primarily for the sake of future generations, and secondly, to listen to in privacy at your own convenience, especially of those artists who are no more with us (Ustad Amir Khan, G.N.Balasubramaniam, Ustad Bismilah Khan, K.B. Sunderambal, Pandit Bhimsen Joshi, Madurai Mani Iyer, Panalal Gosh, M.S.Subbulakshmi, ,Ustad(s) Salamat & Nazakat Ali Khan, Semangudi Sreenivasa Iyer, Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer and son, Maharajapuram Santhanam, M.L.Vasanthakumari and many, many more).
Even today, if I wish to, I can listen a decent quality recording of La Bohme (with Margaret Sheridan and Angelo Minghetti) recorded by HMV-UK in 1926 or, at a higher fidelity, a Wagner concert (Die Walkre, with Bruno Walter) recorded in 1934 by Western Electric (using a Blumlein System). Now, I can't say the same with Indian classical music.
Nevertheless, some statistics on the subject may help you wake up to reality. The sales-worth of the music industry on a global level has come down from US$ 20.7 billion in 2005 down to US$ 16.5 billion in 2012, perhaps what you say may hold some truth....! However, the picture in India is a little different, INR 5.4 billion in 2005 up to Rs. 10.6 billion in 2012, and it is growing by the year.
"if one whishes we can always go for a live performance round the year!"
True to an extent, but perhaps not in today's world where hectic life-style leaves little time to attend all the concerts one wishes to attend. Listed in an attachment are some of the concerts (those that I can remember or I have a gate ticket as a memorabilia) that I traveled to between 1969 and 2005 while living outside India. Sorry, I am unable to attach a 5 page MS Word document.
On returning to India in 2005, I have hardly been to 20-odd concerts. Reason - the PA at the venue were often badly set up - so back to square one. At one amphi-theatre concert here in Chennai, Ustad Allah Rakha (playing with Padit Hariprasad Chourasia) asked for the PA to be turned off completely, because it was sounding horrible. After that, the concert was a blissful delight. The same thing happened at a western classical guitar solo concert (Jonathan Taylor) at Museum theater. The artist asked for the PA to be switched off and requested all in the audience in the far-away seats to get closer to the stage, since the auditorium was only half-full. Again, bliss. My bad luck perhaps, there were few other such incidents (as recent as two months ago) that has somewhat dissuaded me from going to concerts.
"...AIR has been documenting and preserving our musical heritage"
I have had the opportunity to visit All India Radio, Madras on few occasions (with late S.Rajam, musician and artist) and I have seen the pathetic condition of their so called archives - tapes off the spools lying all over the place - not really paint a picture of someone with any good intentions of preserving the past (or even the present). But then, this is just one of many AIR studios in India.
I hope I managed to answer your question. And one piece of advice (which you may choose to ignore) - stay with Tomlinson Holman and Ferdinand Porsche..!
The intention of my post was merely to find out if there was any quality recordings of Indian classical music in India. Diverge as much as you wish, but I will still take the time to answer you questions.
"Guess the answer lies in your question, with so many live performances why do you need recorded music?"
To answer your question, first and foremost, primarily for the sake of future generations, and secondly, to listen to in privacy at your own convenience, especially of those artists who are no more with us (Ustad Amir Khan, G.N.Balasubramaniam, Ustad Bismilah Khan, K.B. Sunderambal, Pandit Bhimsen Joshi, Madurai Mani Iyer, Panalal Gosh, M.S.Subbulakshmi, ,Ustad(s) Salamat & Nazakat Ali Khan, Semangudi Sreenivasa Iyer, Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer and son, Maharajapuram Santhanam, M.L.Vasanthakumari and many, many more).
Even today, if I wish to, I can listen a decent quality recording of La Bohme (with Margaret Sheridan and Angelo Minghetti) recorded by HMV-UK in 1926 or, at a higher fidelity, a Wagner concert (Die Walkre, with Bruno Walter) recorded in 1934 by Western Electric (using a Blumlein System). Now, I can't say the same with Indian classical music.
Nevertheless, some statistics on the subject may help you wake up to reality. The sales-worth of the music industry on a global level has come down from US$ 20.7 billion in 2005 down to US$ 16.5 billion in 2012, perhaps what you say may hold some truth....! However, the picture in India is a little different, INR 5.4 billion in 2005 up to Rs. 10.6 billion in 2012, and it is growing by the year.
"if one whishes we can always go for a live performance round the year!"
True to an extent, but perhaps not in today's world where hectic life-style leaves little time to attend all the concerts one wishes to attend. Listed in an attachment are some of the concerts (those that I can remember or I have a gate ticket as a memorabilia) that I traveled to between 1969 and 2005 while living outside India. Sorry, I am unable to attach a 5 page MS Word document.
On returning to India in 2005, I have hardly been to 20-odd concerts. Reason - the PA at the venue were often badly set up - so back to square one. At one amphi-theatre concert here in Chennai, Ustad Allah Rakha (playing with Padit Hariprasad Chourasia) asked for the PA to be turned off completely, because it was sounding horrible. After that, the concert was a blissful delight. The same thing happened at a western classical guitar solo concert (Jonathan Taylor) at Museum theater. The artist asked for the PA to be switched off and requested all in the audience in the far-away seats to get closer to the stage, since the auditorium was only half-full. Again, bliss. My bad luck perhaps, there were few other such incidents (as recent as two months ago) that has somewhat dissuaded me from going to concerts.
"...AIR has been documenting and preserving our musical heritage"
I have had the opportunity to visit All India Radio, Madras on few occasions (with late S.Rajam, musician and artist) and I have seen the pathetic condition of their so called archives - tapes off the spools lying all over the place - not really paint a picture of someone with any good intentions of preserving the past (or even the present). But then, this is just one of many AIR studios in India.
I hope I managed to answer your question. And one piece of advice (which you may choose to ignore) - stay with Tomlinson Holman and Ferdinand Porsche..!
Dear Essarr,
First of all my apologies if i offended you in anyway! feel there is no need to be so sensitive and fragile about someone(unknown, like me) sharing their point of view, which may or may not support your views. Sir, with all due respect 98% of our country men don't give a $hit to Audiophile music or preserving any heritage - weather you like it or not. If you were not handed down this "acquired taste" from the west and had struggled the middle class life in India, especially pre -1990's you'd perhaps understand and appreciate the very little we have managed to preserve. Also you'd be wise to know as to why we Indians are so lousy when comes to PA, recording, archiving and Audio industry in general . everything has to be seen in context, music especially so, i was merely pointing to the fact that we in India face the "problem of plenty" the fountain of talent/artist is never ending.. the masses really don't feel the burning need to listen to recorded music the way you want them to, you got to digest that fact, hence no demand, no supply! I could present a counter view (p.s - not countering you) to all that you have written, but i value my time and don't think it is wise or useful to anyone. Having been trained in carnatic music myself as a child and coming from a family where(like many south Indian families) members are initiated into music at an early age, your whole philosophy around "preservation of musical heritage" can be challenged head on, anyway, this beautiful song from the Kannada movie Malaya Maarutha (1986) convey's our philosophy so eloquently Ellellu Sangeethave 1 - Malaya Maarutha (1986) - Kannada - YouTube, you should get someone to translate this for you, if you don't understand the language, its beautifully sung by yesudas,trust me.
Jist: There is music everywhere, there is beauty everywhere. You need ears and eyes to hear/see them!
Thank you, hope you take it in the right spirit and don't prescribe me another name ending with a Car
Was puzzled about your advice, till i goggled and discovered the luxury car for the first time! the handle represents my DOB and not the CAR!
First of all my apologies if i offended you in anyway! feel there is no need to be so sensitive and fragile about someone(unknown, like me) sharing their point of view, which may or may not support your views. Sir, with all due respect 98% of our country men don't give a $hit to Audiophile music or preserving any heritage - weather you like it or not. If you were not handed down this "acquired taste" from the west and had struggled the middle class life in India, especially pre -1990's you'd perhaps understand and appreciate the very little we have managed to preserve. Also you'd be wise to know as to why we Indians are so lousy when comes to PA, recording, archiving and Audio industry in general . everything has to be seen in context, music especially so, i was merely pointing to the fact that we in India face the "problem of plenty" the fountain of talent/artist is never ending.. the masses really don't feel the burning need to listen to recorded music the way you want them to, you got to digest that fact, hence no demand, no supply! I could present a counter view (p.s - not countering you) to all that you have written, but i value my time and don't think it is wise or useful to anyone. Having been trained in carnatic music myself as a child and coming from a family where(like many south Indian families) members are initiated into music at an early age, your whole philosophy around "preservation of musical heritage" can be challenged head on, anyway, this beautiful song from the Kannada movie Malaya Maarutha (1986) convey's our philosophy so eloquently Ellellu Sangeethave 1 - Malaya Maarutha (1986) - Kannada - YouTube, you should get someone to translate this for you, if you don't understand the language, its beautifully sung by yesudas,trust me.
Jist: There is music everywhere, there is beauty everywhere. You need ears and eyes to hear/see them!
Thank you, hope you take it in the right spirit and don't prescribe me another name ending with a Car
Was puzzled about your advice, till i goggled and discovered the luxury car for the first time! the handle represents my DOB and not the CAR!
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So correct, thx911!
Was talking to one colleague recently regarding music playback when he said "gana hi sunna hai, just plug in a USB device into the TV and listen, why do you need a stereo?"
Unfortunately, that's the take of so many of us Indians. I am not trying to run down anyone but I don't know what to say, do or think in such situations. I am no expert but I like my music and the system to have a minimum quality.
Similarly, on the video front so many of us are quite content watching pira.ted camera prints of movies and say that the print was not bad.
Maybe it stems from a price/affordability thing. Maybe from the easy availability and lack of policing.
thx911,
No . let me assure you that you have not offended me in any way. But on the other hand, you have not acknowledged any of the things I have taken the time to enumerate. If you happen to be among the 2% who care about quality of music (which I think you are, because you recommend music for me to listen to), then you have very solid reasons to worry - future generations. However, if you are not among the 2%, then you have no reason to be here posting threads just for the heck of it.
The 98% who don't care, if this is true, then it probably has to do with their environmental circumstances, lack of money, whatever. And they are not likely to be participants here, are they?. How does anyone get the right references in one's head about music? By listening to music and instruments in a live situation. For a person who has never heard the 'real' thing up close or been to concerts, any audio system should do just fine, because there is no references to compare it to. That, to me, sounds like a more valid reason for your 98%.
Honestly, I thought your 'handle' related to THX sound system and Porsche cars (both great stuff).
Naturelover,
"...system to have a minimum quality...".
I see that you have some high end audio, but I will give you a tip, if you'd like a on-the-move solution:
- Samsung Champ 2 (Model C3330 around Rs. 4000, or a lot cheaper, if used) and use it just as a music player (if you wish).
- One 16 GB microSD card (around Rs. 400 retail).
- Sennheiser PX 100 mk II portable head phones (around Rs. 3.500 retail).
Rip CDs to mp3 music at [email protected] KHz (around 2000-odd songs capacity).
At a budget of Rs. 8000/- or less, you are getting something that sounds like three to four times that. Trust me.
No . let me assure you that you have not offended me in any way. But on the other hand, you have not acknowledged any of the things I have taken the time to enumerate. If you happen to be among the 2% who care about quality of music (which I think you are, because you recommend music for me to listen to), then you have very solid reasons to worry - future generations. However, if you are not among the 2%, then you have no reason to be here posting threads just for the heck of it.
The 98% who don't care, if this is true, then it probably has to do with their environmental circumstances, lack of money, whatever. And they are not likely to be participants here, are they?. How does anyone get the right references in one's head about music? By listening to music and instruments in a live situation. For a person who has never heard the 'real' thing up close or been to concerts, any audio system should do just fine, because there is no references to compare it to. That, to me, sounds like a more valid reason for your 98%.
Honestly, I thought your 'handle' related to THX sound system and Porsche cars (both great stuff).
Naturelover,
"...system to have a minimum quality...".
I see that you have some high end audio, but I will give you a tip, if you'd like a on-the-move solution:
- Samsung Champ 2 (Model C3330 around Rs. 4000, or a lot cheaper, if used) and use it just as a music player (if you wish).
- One 16 GB microSD card (around Rs. 400 retail).
- Sennheiser PX 100 mk II portable head phones (around Rs. 3.500 retail).
Rip CDs to mp3 music at [email protected] KHz (around 2000-odd songs capacity).
At a budget of Rs. 8000/- or less, you are getting something that sounds like three to four times that. Trust me.
navinsinha
Active Member
Dear FMs
Can some of you let me know the old 60s and 70s HMV Dum Dum vinyl labels which were supposed to be reasonably good? I am into Hindustani music please.
Can some of you let me know the old 60s and 70s HMV Dum Dum vinyl labels which were supposed to be reasonably good? I am into Hindustani music please.
navinsinha,
I have the following Hindustani classical recordings of Gramaphone Company of India, Dumdum, Calcutta. All are 33.3 RPM LP vinyl records, if CD versions are available is something you have to find out:
1. Ravi Shankar with Alla Rakha (sitar) "Music of India - Ragas And Talas" - EMI/HMV ALP1665 (1959)
- Rupak Tal | Raga Madhu-Kauns | Raga Jogiya | Dhun
Note: The absence of 'Pandit' in front of Ravi Shankar and 'Ustad' in front of Alla Rakha is somewhat strange (I bought his second-hand)
2. Vilayat Khan (sarod) "The Genius of Vilayat Khan" - HMV EALP 1266 (1966)
Shanta Prasad - Tabla
- Raga Ahir Bhairav | - Raga Khamaj Thumri
3. Salamat Ali Khan & Nazakat Ali Khan (vocal) "Salamat & Nazakat Ali" - HMV EALP 1282 (1964)
- Raga Abogi Kanada | Raga Gavati | Raga Mishra Khamaj
4. Ravi Shankar (sitar) "Raga Khamaj / Raga Lalit" - HMV ASD 2341 (1967)
- Raga Khamaj | Raga Lalit
5. Salamat Ali Khan & Nazakat Ali Khan (vocal) "Ali Brothers" - HMV/EMI EMC-E 1007 (1969)
- Raga Rageshvari | Raga Gujari Todi
6. Pannalal Ghosh (flute) "Pannalal Ghosh" - HMV EALP 1354 (1970)
- Ragas: Chandramauli | Hansnaraini | Deepawali | Hansdwani | Basant Mukhari | Bopali Todi
- Tumri: Khamaj | Piloo
- Kajri
7. Bismilla Khan (shahnai) "Bismilla Khan" - HMV/EMI EASD 1351 (1970)
- Raga Yaman | Raga Brindaban Sarang
8. Pandit Omkarnath Thakur (vocal) "Sangeet Martand" - EMI/Columbia 33ECX 3301 (1971)
- Raga Desi Todi | Bhajan Surdas
9. Ustad Amir Khan (vocal) "Great Master Great Music" - HMV ECLP 2765 (1976)
- Raga Bilaskhani Todi | Raga Abhogi
10. Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan (sitar/sarod) " Sitar & Sarod" - HMV EASD 1296 (1965) second-hand
Allah Rakha - Tabla
- Raga Shree | Raga Sindh Bhairavi
Crossovers & East-Meets-West
1. Yehudi Menuhin & Ravi Shankar (violin/sitar) "West Meets East" - HMV ASD 2294 (1966)
with Alla Rakha - Tabla and Hephzibah Menuhin - Piano
- Prabhati (Raga Gunkali) | Raga Puriya Kalyan | Swara-Kakali (Raga Tilang)
- 1st Movement Moderato (Sonata No.3 A Minor Op.25 Rumanian- Enesco)
- 2nd Movement Andante Sostenuto E
- 3rd Movement Allegro Con Brio, Ma Non Troppo Mosso
2. Ravi Shankar & Andr Previn - London Symphony Orchestra "Concerto For Sitar & Orchestra" - HMV ASD 2752
Terrence Emery - Bongos
- 1st Movement: Raga Khamaj | 2nd Movement: Raga Sindh Bhairavi | 3rd Movement: Raga Adana | 4th Movement: Manj Kamaj
This is a brilliant, dynamic recording. The LSO emphasise the depth and power of ragas very well. CD is available.
I have the following Hindustani classical recordings of Gramaphone Company of India, Dumdum, Calcutta. All are 33.3 RPM LP vinyl records, if CD versions are available is something you have to find out:
1. Ravi Shankar with Alla Rakha (sitar) "Music of India - Ragas And Talas" - EMI/HMV ALP1665 (1959)
- Rupak Tal | Raga Madhu-Kauns | Raga Jogiya | Dhun
Note: The absence of 'Pandit' in front of Ravi Shankar and 'Ustad' in front of Alla Rakha is somewhat strange (I bought his second-hand)
2. Vilayat Khan (sarod) "The Genius of Vilayat Khan" - HMV EALP 1266 (1966)
Shanta Prasad - Tabla
- Raga Ahir Bhairav | - Raga Khamaj Thumri
3. Salamat Ali Khan & Nazakat Ali Khan (vocal) "Salamat & Nazakat Ali" - HMV EALP 1282 (1964)
- Raga Abogi Kanada | Raga Gavati | Raga Mishra Khamaj
4. Ravi Shankar (sitar) "Raga Khamaj / Raga Lalit" - HMV ASD 2341 (1967)
- Raga Khamaj | Raga Lalit
5. Salamat Ali Khan & Nazakat Ali Khan (vocal) "Ali Brothers" - HMV/EMI EMC-E 1007 (1969)
- Raga Rageshvari | Raga Gujari Todi
6. Pannalal Ghosh (flute) "Pannalal Ghosh" - HMV EALP 1354 (1970)
- Ragas: Chandramauli | Hansnaraini | Deepawali | Hansdwani | Basant Mukhari | Bopali Todi
- Tumri: Khamaj | Piloo
- Kajri
7. Bismilla Khan (shahnai) "Bismilla Khan" - HMV/EMI EASD 1351 (1970)
- Raga Yaman | Raga Brindaban Sarang
8. Pandit Omkarnath Thakur (vocal) "Sangeet Martand" - EMI/Columbia 33ECX 3301 (1971)
- Raga Desi Todi | Bhajan Surdas
9. Ustad Amir Khan (vocal) "Great Master Great Music" - HMV ECLP 2765 (1976)
- Raga Bilaskhani Todi | Raga Abhogi
10. Ravi Shankar & Ali Akbar Khan (sitar/sarod) " Sitar & Sarod" - HMV EASD 1296 (1965) second-hand
Allah Rakha - Tabla
- Raga Shree | Raga Sindh Bhairavi
Crossovers & East-Meets-West
1. Yehudi Menuhin & Ravi Shankar (violin/sitar) "West Meets East" - HMV ASD 2294 (1966)
with Alla Rakha - Tabla and Hephzibah Menuhin - Piano
- Prabhati (Raga Gunkali) | Raga Puriya Kalyan | Swara-Kakali (Raga Tilang)
- 1st Movement Moderato (Sonata No.3 A Minor Op.25 Rumanian- Enesco)
- 2nd Movement Andante Sostenuto E
- 3rd Movement Allegro Con Brio, Ma Non Troppo Mosso
2. Ravi Shankar & Andr Previn - London Symphony Orchestra "Concerto For Sitar & Orchestra" - HMV ASD 2752
Terrence Emery - Bongos
- 1st Movement: Raga Khamaj | 2nd Movement: Raga Sindh Bhairavi | 3rd Movement: Raga Adana | 4th Movement: Manj Kamaj
This is a brilliant, dynamic recording. The LSO emphasise the depth and power of ragas very well. CD is available.
navinsinha
Active Member
Dear Bro,
Thanks a lot for your detailed note! I am highly obliged. I would check my inventory, I may be having some of them. I am, however, not into CDs though I have a few, I am interested in vinyl only. Can you suggest where can I get them? Is Kolkata a better place for the classicals?
Thanks a lot for your detailed note! I am highly obliged. I would check my inventory, I may be having some of them. I am, however, not into CDs though I have a few, I am interested in vinyl only. Can you suggest where can I get them? Is Kolkata a better place for the classicals?
Someone has just for Jamaluddins's number in Kolkatta in below thread (post 62). Maybe you can PM him to check for you.
http://www.hifivision.com/phono-turntables/24481-jamaluddin-vinyl-seller-kolkata-7.html
I suggest CDs produced by Navras Records (UK) are very good in SQ. I think in India, they are marketed by Sony India. I have few of them and they are really good. They have a large collection of recordings of live concerts of Indian classical vocals / music. Recording & manufacturing of CDs are done in UK.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
I used to go to Navras concerts in London.
Nadabrahmam
New Member
I cannot agree more with these points. I think musicians themselves should come forward and encourage the production of hi-res audio and I often find we are missing arguably the best genre of music in the whole world with these subpar recordings and remastering. Sad indeed.
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