Indian TV reviewers

[Alphaforest]

The manufacturers are interested in selling units. The consumer is interested in using/enjoying the product. The segment that cares about "accurate" is small and irrelevant.

First of all, it's not just enthusiasts who are interested in color-accurate displays. There is a dedicated market for it, and that's why Sony, Cannons, and other similar brands spend a lot of fo money on R&D to develop new and more accurate tech. By your logic, we don't need any more innovation because we already have decent displays in the market. Studios from small to big, to content creators to small photographers all need color-accurate displays to ensure content looks the same on every platform and every type of display. If we'd go by your logic then Studio monitors are a waste of money because there are speakers that sound better than studio monitors, however, to ensure the content sounds the same on every source, studio monitors are used as a neutral reference source. A similar use case is present in content creation environments, also people who would like to stick to creators' intent are not irrelevant. People who have a dedicated job of being colorist and set designers exists to present a style, a form of art for the viewer and they put in hours grading their work so as not to be slapped around by opinion similar to yours. For you close enough might be enough but you can't say that about every person including those especially on this forum because they are researching because they consider it relevant.

Why is that an issue? Why assume everyone who watches reviews wants color accuracy? Being color accurate in objective terms is different than subjective color preference which people may or may not perceive as accurate. Why is it necessary to backup with measurements? If you don't like their reviews then don't watch it? Why assume people want to make a "sound decision" for accuracy? Everyone is a glorified salesman, even the objective measurement people, they sell/recommend based on numbers, that's all. I don't see the difference. Even if we take your premise that they say something is accurate but it isnt objectively, it amounts to lying, why is that an issue? People lie worldwide on a daily basis. Have you never lied?

Secondly, how is me lying for fun in my personal life similar to a reviewer lying to millions of innocent people with malicious intent and duping people out of money comparable? You say that number doesn't matter and then say if you dont like the review/ reviewer then don't watch him/ her, then what am I to trust? If 5 different reviewers have 5 different opinions then what is a person seeking help supposed to do? It is not possible for everyone to demo a display before buying plus not every store carries every model, what is the person looking to buy a display then supposed to do? Just trust a subjective opinion and hope it turns out fine. And lying when they are linking affiliate links for people to earn money without actually caring what people want is ill-intent and outright scamming. Lie in your personal life, no one has the right to correct you the way you live but lying to the public on a public platform with the intention to make money is called running a "SCAM".

 

[Bloom@83]

If that was the case, we’d have no standards like rec.709 and rec.2020 or even HDR. These are all standards that make your movie watching enjoyable as it looks like what the director intended.

Without this, you’d have a hot mess. Skin tones would look green/pink/purple and the mood the movie creator intended would never reach you.

How do you know what the director intended - I’m curious, without extensive study on each particular film ? Do videophiles do that ?

I’m a hardcore movie buff. I have been watching classic films for the last two decades from US , Japan , Russia ,France and almost all European countries and of course from India , from 1940s onwards. So I guess that makes me little bit qualified to talk on this topic.

While watching Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver back in 2002 on an imported British Film institute DVD I noticed , during the last 10 minutes the color getting quite desaturated and grainy. Of course I thought my dvd was faulty.
Forward to 2012 I got a Blu Ray disc and again , same issue.

So then I started researching on the film , reading essays by film theorists and academics - nobody mentioned anything on this aspect.

Just few days back I stumbled upon an old interview with Scorsese where finally I found a reference to this - which stated that owing to severe violence in that last 10 minutes (compared to seventies era) , studio was compelling Scorsese to cut that entire footage.
Scorsese apparently was so angry he wanted to shoot the executive and had a gun ready.

Finally a compromise was reached where Scorsese agreed to desaturate that sequence to minimise the effect of blood, and bypassed censor.

My point - it is definitely not easy to know director’s intent. Especially for non-mainstream art and classic films made between1950- 1980 (the classic period ).

Second point - it doesn’t matter two hoots if the film is good, what exactly the tone is (unless it’s totally off- which doesn’t happen ).
A Citizen Kane or a Rashomon or a Cries and Whispers doesn’t need a 8k latest technology color , tone accurate display , complying to standards to make it a more enjoyable experience.

Tagging @sachinchavan 15865 too as he is a cinephile as well , so his views would also be worthwhile.

 

[Alphaforest]

How do you know what the director intended - I’m curious, without extensive study on each particular film ? Do videophiles do that ?

I’m a hardcore movie buff. I have been watching classic films for the last two decades from US , Japan , Russia ,France and almost all European countries and of course from India , from 1940s onwards. So I guess that makes me little bit qualified to talk on this topic.

While watching Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver back in 2002 on an imported British Film institute DVD I noticed , during the last 10 minutes the color getting quite desaturated and grainy. Of course I thought my dvd was faulty.
Forward to 2012 I got a Blu Ray disc and again , same issue.

So then I started researching on the film , reading essays by film theorists and academics - nobody mentioned anything on this aspect.

Just few days back I stumbled upon an old interview with Scorsese where finally I found a reference to this - which stated that owing to severe violence in that last 10 minutes (compared to seventies era) , studio was compelling Scorsese to cut that entire footage.
Scorsese apparently was so angry he wanted to shoot the executive and had a gun ready.

Finally a compromise was reached where Scorsese agreed to desaturate that sequence to minimise the effect of blood, and bypassed censor.

My point - it is definitely not easy to know director’s intent. Especially for non-mainstream art and classic films made between1950- 1980 (the classic period ).

This is fairly easy to figure out, you don't per se stick to the director's intent but more to the colorist's intent. When you have a display capable of displaying the color space the colorist mastered the project in, you are close to what they wanted. Since grading is highly standardized by the use of different standards in different color spaces. If every particular color matches the point of reference in a particular color space when calibrating in a specific color gamut then you have a display that is capable of directly imitating directors/creators' intent.

 

[Bloom@83]

This is fairly easy to figure out, you don't per se stick to the director's intent but more to the colorist's intent. When you have a display capable of displaying the color space the colorist mastered the project in, you are close to what they wanted. Since grading is highly standardized by the use of different standards in different color spaces. If every particular color matches the point of reference in a particular color space when calibrating in a specific color gamut then you have a display that is capable of directly imitating directors/creators' intent.

Colourists intent ? Are you kidding me ? Do film dvds and blu Ray discs come with complimentary study material that describe these things ?
I have multiple Criterion blu rays (the best company in the world for remastered movies ) and even in their extras they don’t show anything related to colourists intent , at least on the planet on which I live.

 

[Alphaforest]

How do you know what the director intended - I’m curious, without extensive study on each particular film ? Do videophiles do that ?

I’m a hardcore movie buff. I have been watching classic films for the last two decades from US , Japan , Russia ,France and almost all European countries and of course from India , from 1940s onwards. So I guess that makes me little bit qualified to talk on this topic.

While watching Martin Scorsese’s Taxi Driver back in 2002 on an imported British Film institute DVD I noticed , during the last 10 minutes the color getting quite desaturated and grainy. Of course I thought my dvd was faulty.
Forward to 2012 I got a Blu Ray disc and again , same issue.

So then I started researching on the film , reading essays by film theorists and academics - nobody mentioned anything on this aspect.

Just few days back I stumbled upon an old interview with Scorsese where finally I found a reference to this - which stated that owing to severe violence in that last 10 minutes (compared to seventies era) , studio was compelling Scorsese to cut that entire footage.
Scorsese apparently was so angry he wanted to shoot the executive and had a gun ready.

Finally a compromise was reached where Scorsese agreed to desaturate that sequence to minimise the effect of blood, and bypassed censor.

My point - it is definitely not easy to know director’s intent. Especially for non-mainstream art and classic films made between1950- 1980 (the classic period ).

Second point - it doesn’t matter two hoots if the film is good, what exactly the tone is (unless it’s totally off- which doesn’t happen ).
A Citizen Kane or a Rashomon or a Cries and Whispers doesn’t need a 8k latest technology color , tone accurate display , complying to standards to make it a more enjoyable experience.

Tagging @sachinchavan 15865 too as he is a cinephile as well , so his views would also be worthwhile.

Also yes, complying with standards is not necessary, but it helps in judging the caliber of a display and it justifies the "upgrade" for many

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

First of all, it's not just enthusiasts who are interested in color-accurate displays. There is a dedicated market for it, and that's why Sony, Cannons, and other similar brands spend a lot of fo money on R&D to develop new and more accurate tech. By your logic, we don't need any more innovation because we already have decent displays in the market. Studios from small to big, to content creators to small photographers all need color-accurate displays to ensure content looks the same on every platform and every type of display. If we'd go by your logic then Studio monitors are a waste of money because there are speakers that sound better than studio monitors, however, to ensure the content sounds the same on every source, studio monitors are used as a neutral reference source. A similar use case is present in content creation environments, also people who would like to stick to creators' intent are not irrelevant. People who have a dedicated job of being colorist and set designers exists to present a style, a form of art for the viewer and they put in hours grading their work so as not to be slapped around by opinion similar to yours. For you close enough might be enough but you can't say that about every person including those especially on this forum because they are researching because they consider it relevant.

Secondly, how is me lying for fun in my personal life similar to a reviewer lying to millions of innocent people with malicious intent and duping people out of money comparable? You say that number doesn't matter and then say if you dont like the review/ reviewer then don't watch him/ her, then what am I to trust? If 5 different reviewers have 5 different opinions then what is a person seeking help supposed to do? It is not possible for everyone to demo a display before buying plus not every store carries every model, what is the person looking to buy a display then supposed to do? Just trust a subjective opinion and hope it turns out fine. And lying when they are linking affiliate links for people to earn money without actually caring what people want is ill-intent and outright scamming. Lie in your personal life, no one has the right to correct you the way you live but lying to the public on a public platform with the intention to make money is called running a "SCAM".

For your first para, I spoke of consumers, you are talking about professional use. I know most people don't care, the subset on the forum is small and irrelevant.

If you ask me a lie is a lie. There is no such thing as innocent people in terms of say buying a display device. There is no malicious intent, the intent is to make money, greedy yes, malicious no. No one is duping anyone, people see the review and choose what to believe for themselves, you simply don't approve of the review, doesn't make them malicious. People can trust what they like, if they like the review or not is upto them, if they wish to demo it it is upto them, if they wish to buy blind it is upto them. If a person reads 5 different reviews they can use their own judgement. A person is supposed to use their own judgement, not rely on meaningless numbers. If their judgement is to rely on meaningless numbers, thats fine but we shouldnt insist on people using the method we prefer. I don't think it is a scam, it is them trying to make money, not trying to take your money, you read the review and buy the display, you get a display for your money.

 

[Alphaforest]

Colourists intent ? Are you kidding me ? Do film dvds and blu Ray discs come with complimentary study material that describe these things ?
I have multiple Criterion blu rays (the best company in the world for remastered movies ) and even in their extras they don’t show anything related to colourists intent , at least on the planet on which I live.

No, they are not featured, none of them are as famous as the directors or actors of those particular movies but still, they are being graded by colorists, not directors. They follow directions but do have an opinion of their own. They do reflect their own opinions and taste in the work they do. Also, this doesn't change the fact that whatever mood they are trying to set can be reflected by standardizing a display and displaying it how they intended it to be. Reference monitors do this and when manufacturers try to provide the same tech by making it cheaper for the general public, they serve the same purpose.

 

[Bloom@83]

No, they are not featured, none of them are as famous as the directors or actors of those particular movies but still, they are being graded by colorists, not directors. They follow directions but do have an opinion of their own. They do reflect their own opinions and taste in the work they do. Also, this doesn't change the fact that whatever mood they are trying to set can be reflected by standardizing a display and displaying it how they intended it to be. Reference monitors do this and when manufacturers try to provide the same tech by making it cheaper for the general public, they serve the same purpose.

Yes but how do you know ?!where all these facts published for films , especially for hundreds and thousands of classic and obscure films from the last 60 years ??

Secondly what about the black and white films ?

Point me to the resource please , where all these info is updated. I’d be eternally obliged.

 

[Alphaforest]

For your first para, I spoke of consumers, you are talking about professional use. I know most people don't care, the subset on the forum is small and irrelevant.

If you ask me a lie is a lie. There is no such thing as innocent people in terms of say buying a display device. There is no malicious intent, the intent is to make money, greedy yes, malicious no. No one is duping anyone, people see the review and choose what to believe for themselves, you simply don't approve of the review, doesn't make them malicious. People can trust what they like, if they like the review or not is upto them, if they wish to demo it it is upto them, if they wish to buy blind it is upto them. If a person reads 5 different reviews they can use their own judgement. A person is supposed to use their own judgement, not rely on meaningless numbers. If their judgement is to rely on meaningless numbers, thats fine but we shouldnt insist on people using the method we prefer. I don't think it is a scam, it is them trying to make money, not trying to take your money, you read the review and buy the display, you get a display for your money.

How are numbers irrelevant when they correspond to something set as a standard worldwide? A gram is a gram worldwide due to standards set by the general conference of weights and measures. Similarly, a color corresponding to a specific shade in the color space is going to remain the same if the standard is followed and achieved, thereby providing a baseline to compare the product and choose for their own liking. If someone like more reds then I'm down for it, I have nothing against it but it still provides a reference for them and lets them understand what they like at least. If I got out and describe a panel as the most color accurate and most vibrant ( which it might be according to my opinion or maybe just because I got paid to say it) and then someone buys it based on my review, then they disagree. Maybe they wanted it to be more saturated (which is fine), then yes its a hassle for them and poor return policies in India do dupe them out of money.

 

[Alphaforest]

Yes but how do you know ?!where all these facts published for films , especially for hundreds and thousands of classic and obscure films from the last 60 years ??

Secondly what about the black and white films ?

Point me to the resource please , where all these info is updated. I’d be eternally obliged.

The metadata included serves that purpose, it specifies what color primaries, YCbCr matrix, and transfer function it adheres to. You can extract that info, and if your display covers that color gamut decently and follows the reference points exactly the same then you will see the colors exactly the same way.

Also, Black and white films don't have color grading, they have color contrast. Entirely different approach

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

How are numbers irrelevant when they correspond to something set as a standard worldwide? A gram is a gram worldwide due to standards set by the general conference of weights and measures. Similarly, a color corresponding to a specific shade in the color space is going to remain the same if the standard is followed and achieved, thereby providing a baseline to compare the product and choose for their own liking. If someone like more reds then I'm down for it, I have nothing against it but it still provides a reference for them and lets them understand what they like at least. If I got out and describe a panel as the most color accurate and most vibrant ( which it might be according to my opinion or maybe just because I got paid to say it) and then someone buys it based on my review, then they disagree. Maybe they wanted it to be more saturated (which is fine), then yes its a hassle for them and poor return policies in India do dupe them out of money.

If displays were highly inaccurate devices it makes sense but they are pretty good to begin with skin is not purple, chasing perfect numbers is as I said just a race and personal satisfaction of money spent. A gram is a unit of weight and many things are sold by weight, color accuracy is a technical trait, after a certain point it is irrelevant. If skin was purple, sure, but as it actually stands this is pointless. People usually buy a display and operate it out of the box, few even play with the settings to make it more appealing to them. Most people arrive at the settings they want to use (assuming they modify it at all) by trial and error. Like you said some want it more saturated, some prefer more red, all these numbers don't really help with that as they will just fiddle with the settings to get what they like. I do agree that India has poor return policies compared to abroad but that doesn't mean they are being duped.

 

[Alphaforest]

If displays were highly inaccurate devices it makes sense but they are pretty good to begin with skin is not purple, chasing perfect numbers is as I said just a race and personal satisfaction of money spent. A gram is a unit of weight and many things are sold by weight, color accuracy is a technical trait, after a certain point it is irrelevant. If skin was purple, sure, but as it actually stands this is pointless. People usually buy a display and operate it out of the box, few even play with the settings to make it more appealing to them. Most people arrive at the settings they want to use (assuming they modify it at all) by trial and error. Like you said some want it more saturated, some prefer more red, all these numbers don't really help with that as they will just fiddle with the settings to get what they like. I do agree that India has poor return policies compared to abroad but that doesn't mean they are being duped.

first of all, you are quoting the wrong person about purple skin tone. Secondly, yes it's a technical trait. I don't say that go and swallow a load from Rtings. If anyone does that then they are stupid, I suggest using their data to decide what is best for your needs. Some people are too sensitive to cooler whites and some to brighter greens, those numbers help you decide on a display that doesn't have those imperfections. A highly color-accurate display makes it easier to achieve the PQ you desire. For example, I test my displays with D65 white point but I find it to be too warm. It gives me a reference point that lets me achieve the color temperature of the display I prefer. Plus a peace of mind that I have a display capable of producing the best and widest range of colors even in HDR content.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

first of all, you are quoting the wrong person about purple skin tone. Secondly, yes it's a technical trait. I don't say that go and swallow a load from Rtings. If anyone does that then they are stupid, I suggest using their data to decide what is best for your needs. Some people are too sensitive to cooler whites and some to brighter greens, those numbers help you decide on a display that doesn't have those imperfections. A highly color-accurate display makes it easier to achieve the PQ you desire. For example, I test my displays with D65 white point but I find it to be too warm. It gives me a reference point that lets me achieve the color temperature of the display I prefer. Plus a peace of mind that I have a display capable of producing the best and widest range of colors even in HDR content.

It was only an example about color accurcy. We are going around in circles, I understand your view but disagree. The numbers serve no purpose other than mental satisfaction of money spent and racing. You yourself have admitted this. This "best" mentality is what I disagree with, there is no best. For those inclined the numbers give peace of mind as you say but it doesn't help the majority of the population. No one cares. Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree. I don't see us agreeing.

 

[Bloom@83]

The metadata included serves that purpose, it specifies what color primaries, YCbCr matrix, and transfer function it adheres to. You can extract that info, and if your display covers that color gamut decently and follows the reference points exactly the same then you will see the colors exactly the same way.

Also, Black and white films don't have color grading, they have color contrast. Entirely different approach

No it doesn’t. They only tell you what was used in the final disc , not what choices were made in post production.
Post production raw digital files differ significantly with what comes in the final disc - it is the SAME as in music- raw files in studio are NOT the same as output files on commercial discs except for very few specific remastering companies like Criterion which are faithful to the original post production process , using notes from editors and colorists and of course inputs from the directors (if alive ) to arrive at the remastered file. Rest 99% stuff are hit or miss.

It might matter for demo files made specially for comparison but content wise they are worthless and thus of no concern to me (or millions of cinephiles around the world. ).

 

[Alphaforest]

No it doesn’t. They only tell you what was used in the final disc , not what choices were made in post production.
Post production raw digital files differ significantly with what comes in the final disc - it is the SAME as in music- raw files in studio are NOT the same as output files on commercial discs except for very few specific remastering companies like Criterion which are faithful to the original post production process , using notes from editors and colorists and of course inputs from the directors (if alive ) to arrive at the remastered file. Rest 99% stuff are hit or miss.

It might matter for demo files made specially for comparison but content wise they are worthless and thus of no concern to me (or millions of cinephiles around the world. ).

Yes,it affects the style in PP, whatever is before that is a stylistic choice and has only a little affect on Color grading. Therefore if a specific grading was used in a specific standard, to display it a minimum Color gamut needs to be present on the display and should correspond the reference points to display that particular Color accurately. Stylistic choices cannot be influenced by anyone and cannot be emulated to 100% but Color grading choices can be displayed the way they were meant to be

 

[Alphaforest]

Yes

It was only an example about color accurcy. We are going around in circles, I understand your view but disagree. The numbers serve no purpose other than mental satisfaction of money spent and racing. You yourself have admitted this. This "best" mentality is what I disagree with, there is no best. For those inclined the numbers give peace of mind as you say but it doesn't help the majority of the population. No one cares. Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree. I don't see us agreeing.

Yes, we will never have a similar opinion and maybe that is for the best. In the end I feel we strive the same thing but with a different approach.

 

[Bloom@83]

Yes,it affects the style in PP, whatever is before that is a stylistic choice and has only a little affect on Color grading. Therefore if a specific grading was used in a specific standard, to display it a minimum Color gamut needs to be present on the display and should correspond the reference points to display that particular Color accurately. Stylistic choices cannot be influenced by anyone and cannot be emulated to 100% but Color grading choices can be displayed the way they were meant to be

You are not reading my posts.

I have said post production raw files which has the editors , colorists and directors inputs are often changed by the studios making the commercial discs. There may be exceptions when a director is in control of the final cut , but that has always been exception rather than the norm.
So all your comparisons with respect to directors/ colorists intent goes out the window , right there. Moot.

Only commercial theatres who have the original DV files have the right information, or in earlier era - the 35mm or 70mm reels.

I hope you are not claiming that you are using these as your source.

 

[Alphaforest]

You are not reading my posts.

I have said post production raw files which has the editors , colorists and directors inputs are often changed by the studios making the commercial discs. There may be exceptions when a director is in control of the final cut , but that has always been exception rather than the norm.
So all your comparisons with respect to directors/ colorists intent goes out the window , right there. Moot.

Yes, that is true. Anything that is being handled by a third party will have its own stylistic approach and something I didn't consider honestly. But also only the older content is being remastered to the newer standards and unless that process is standardized then yes, the remastered content will differ in its stylistic approach. My points mostly refer to the content that is already being released in HDR by the original production house.

 

[Love4sound]

@Alphaforest by now you should have realised there are far more worse things regarding televisions then you tube reviewers. Welcome to HFV

 

[Alphaforest]

@Alphaforest by now you should have realised there are far more worse things regarding televisions then you tube reviewers. Welcome to HFV

True, and thank you. Whoever it may help or not, I am still going to provide objective measurements whenever I can. Hope it helps the ones who believe in them.