Kishore VS Rafi

[Deleted member 79865]

His Excellency Sir Himesh Reshmia !!! Great suggestion, let us dedicate a golden thread just for Sir Himesh-ji, our forum will be honored !!

I would also like to suggest one more great great artist of yesteryears : Sir Altaf Raja .

SuhasG ...Are you Suhas Ganpule..I think you are..right?

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Such an interesting discussion. I agree with Suhas’s view that we can have fruitful discussions and debates on subjective choices too, as long as we listen to others and respect their views too.

Speaking for myself, I have, for a long time since my early youth, preferred Asha and Kishore over Lata and Rafi. But over the last few years, as my listening gear has improved significantly and listening has become more intent, I have begun to appreciate the latter pair and realise their greatness. Not that I love Asha and Kishore any less now than then. Here’s how I differentiate (appreciatively) the two pairs (not to be confused with duets):

- Asha and Kishore are what I’d call ‘performing singers’. Of course Asha hasn’t acted in more than one film, but any of her interviews or in reality shows one can see she is a ‘born performer’. Kishore’s performance needs no introduction. When these two sing, one feels they are actually living that song. And that connects with many of us. It doesn’t matter if they have their flaws and limitations as singers, we still love them. We aren’t just experiencing the singing, but also the personalities of the two performers.

- Lata and Rafi on the other hand, are right there at the peak of what could be called ‘playback competency’. When you listen to their songs, you don’t see Lata or Rafi... they just dissolve. No wonder they sung for such a wide range of leading actors across eras, especially Lata. These two are more classical singers. Not to confuse with Hindustani classical, though they have a base in it... here I mean they ‘think through’ the song and ensure that they ‘technically’ are flawless - with their sur and laya. Of course they aren’t limited to this, but also emote and emote well. But on pure emotionality, Asha and Kishore would score over them, in general.

To summarise, I can listen to Rafi/Lata any time, just as I can listen to Hindustani classical any time. It’s the purity of their singing that transcends everything else, including time and mood. I would listen to Asha and Kishore especially when I am in the mood for their songs (Asha is largely one mood, Kishore has two, but I prefer his melancholic mood). All of them were and are true gems. And will remain so - as long as Hindi film songs are heard anywhere, any time.

 

[Nitin K]

Hi,

In another thread thevortex made the following comments that prompetd me to start this thread:

"Rafi - while a brilliant and peerless practitioner of classical music - was quite limited in terms of the genres of music he could deliver"​

Kishore Kumar - not classically trained he very well might be - could deliver on any type of song. The classical to the maudlin, the raunchy to the romantic, loving to the lonely. He was a singer for every mood. In a word he was far more versatile than any other singer of his age.​

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Which is why I rate Kishore higher than Rafi.​

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Somebody who did not know the fact that Kishore was not classically trained could hear 'Tum Bin Jaaoon Kahaan' or 'Mere Naina' and return back with the impression that they heard a fantastic classical singer in action.​

Sir,

Kishore was a multi faceted personality, not a master of one art. I personally feel it is unfair to compare him with people who specialized in only singing, acting or composing. We should not be comparing apples with oranges, but if we are, here are the facts.

I have a feeling that you are going by the 'image' and are not consciously listening for Rafi's voice in all kinds of songs. If you do so, you would realize that Rafi was significantly more versatile than most of the other male singers, including Kishore. Here are some examples:

• You have already accepted that Rafi was better at Hindustani classical
• Rafi was better at Rock and Jazz - Listen to any of Shammi Kapoor songs, irrespective of who the composer was. I remember just two Kishore songs on Shammi ji, which are not mentionable in the same breath as the real Shammi songs.
• Rafi was better than Kishore on qawwalis. Let us not talk about the real stuff like Rafi's "Yeh Ishq Ishq Hai". Just consider the fact that Rafi was called to sing all of Rishi Kapoor's qawwalis, even though Kishore sang his 'regular' songs. Try "Parda hai parda", "Ham kisi se kam nahin".
• Rafi was better than Kishore on sad songs. Listen to songs from 'Pyasa', such as 'Tang a chuke hain kashmakashe zindagi se ham'
• Rafi was better than Kishore even on fun songs. Listen to any of his gems for comedians like Johnny Walker and Mahmood. He always sang the way the actor spoke. It is quite difficult to believe that we have the same singer singing for Guru Dutt and Johnny Walker in 'Pyasa'.

Rafi even provided playback for Kishore on screen!

Kishore was a voice, better suited for the male lead characters of the 70's and 80s action movies, as the men got more macho, and would appear odd with all those details in their singing. Kishore was the voice of a normal (sometimes angry) man, not expected to sing in real life. What also worked well was his chemistry with the Burmans, but even they kept calling Rafi for the difficult numbers, even though age had started showing in Rafi's voice.

Both Kishore and Rafi sang 'Tum Bin Jaaoon Kahaan'. Rafi sang two versions of it. The records include Kishore's sad version and Rafi's fast version at a faster pace. Any guesses about who's version was finally used for the 'hero'

Finally, about 'Mere Naina'. I heard this conversation between RD Burman, Asha and Gulzar on radio every morning in 1988/89. They mentioned that Kishore was sure that he could not sing this song, and refused to do so. RD did not give up. He knew that Kishore was a great mimic, so they got Lata to sing that song and handed the tapes over to Kishore. He practiced and sang it well. I miss Kishore's singing the most when I hear his clones singing 30% of what he did. Kishore sang in a full throated real voice. This song is a good example.

Both the great legends are supreme in their own right hence cannot be compared. It boils down to one's personal preference which is subjective & not the final or better choice.

 

[Sonisir]

I agree and I am quite enjoying this discussion.

Medhavi - I feel you are making a few generalizations in your earlier post. Cases in point are:

- Rafi was better at Rock and Jazz music

Now, Hindi film music - even for that period - was not what you would call Rock music. There were a few examples though. One of them is the unforgettable 'Mere Umar Ke Naujawanon' sung by Kishore. Now, that is a rock classic in the truest sense of the word - at least as far as Hindi filmdom goes. 'Pag Ghunghroo Baandh' can also be extrapolated into the 'Rock' genre if you are not too picky.

I cannot seem to recall many popular Rock songs sung by Rafi. Jazz on the other hand, Rafi has sung and sung well. Now, whether he sang it better than Kishore - that is subjective, unless they both sang the same song.

And that, luckily for us, happened. As you rightly point out, 'Tum Bin Jaaoon Kahaan' was sung by both the legends. And there are no points for guessing whose version was better and whose version became popular. Yes, Kishore sung the song far far better than Rafi did. Lest this be a subjective opinion, I encourage members to listen to both versions and make their own decision.

Next up - Rafi was better than Kishore on sad songs

The pathos that Kishore could bring was not restricted to voice. It extended to its timbre, expression and pitch. Can you imagine somebody singing 'Yeh Laal Rang' with a smile on the lips? Yes, if you listen to the song, it is one sung with the utmost sadness of spirit but with a smiling mouth. That is genius. Or lets take 'Yeh Kya Hua'. Now, thats again such a distinctive sad song that it begs mention. It falls into a distinct genre actually. It had that maudlin quality. It was rueful, but gently rueful - not bursting into sobs. These are just two examples.

If you get into true pathos, songs such as 'Kiska Rasta Dekhe', 'Koi Hota Jisko', 'Koi Humdum Na Rahaa' etc. are true gems. I am also a die hard fan of the song 'Jin Raaton Ki Bhor Nahin'. I consider that a very high example of Kishore's emotive skills with the microphone. It was also an example of excellent composition. Which reminds me to mention that I am only talking about Kishore the singer all the time. If we bring in his other dimensions, very few people in the history of Indian cinema can stand the comparison

Next up - Rafi is better than Kishore in fun songs

Now, that really is something I dont comprehend. Like I said, Kishore and fun sort of went together. He could take an ordinary song and infuse life and an inimitable dance quality to it. Examples are too many to list here. In this more than anything else, the difference between Kishore and Rafi is much too apparent. And we need not even go to his yodelling skills to sort out the winner here.

What I will wholeheartedly agree with you on is that Rafi was the better Qawwali singer. And of course he was the better classical singer. But if its versatility as a singer that we are looking for - a man who could go high or low, skim on the surface or go deep, scream or whisper (Oh Meri Sharmilee) - then it is Kishore who comes on top.

Personally I love the sad songs sung by Mukesh and rate them at par with ones sung by Kishore. But if there is a comparison, it is again the versatility aspect that places Mukesh at second spot.

Consider this, if you will. If I come back from office all 7 days of a week in a different mood, there is every chance that I will be able to select and hear a song matching my mood perfectly sung by Kishore. And what is more, revel in it. Now, that is a very difficult thing to have done as a singer. And I appreciate it. I dont think I can say the same thing about too many of the Hindi singers at that time. But as they say, each to his own.

Rafi is beyond in sad song , he not just sung sad song for romance , he sung for family , country , maa , baap , duniyan. just listen his sad song janewalon jara he sung this song with smile with lot of deepness , he was the only singer who sung all type of sad song , there is two type of sad song in khilauna movie both is sung by him differently " khilauna Jaan kar tum to " and " khus rahe tu sada " . Kishor da said music director to ask Rafi to sung a song " nafrat ki duniyaa " every sad song where people is died mostly sung by Rafi sahab in 70s even didn't matter who is the composer , some explample
1 Jan ek qaza se gujre
2 dash liya unko naag devta
3 mukaddar ka sikandar sad version
4 nafrat ki duniya

Sad song means not just romantic sad song or life giving sad song there is lot of type of sad songs

No one can sung pyasa sad song ,
He also perform mere mehboob title track in lot of different mood and he sung some lines differently and some lines with sad voice and some lines with happy voice.
suhani raat dhal chuki can anybody render this.
Even kishor da is voice of amithabh in dostana , LP give song to Rafi for mere dost kissa ye kya ho gaya . And he sound almost same as for Amitabh that he sound in patta patta boota boota .

He sung sad songs in every type of geet , like ghazal - kabhi khud pe , ham bekhudi me unko pukare chale gaye
Hindi sad song - man re tu kahe na dheer share , Zara samne to aao chaliyan
Country - kar chale ham fida Jano tan sathiyo
For family - chanda maa se pyara mera mama , babul ki duaye leti jaa.
Fast track sad song - kya hua Tera wada , khilauna Jan kar , Dil ke jharokhe me .
Romantic - pathar ke sanam

Toote huye khwabo ne , ye duniya agar mil bhi Jaye to kya hai

And a sad song in movie Haqeeqat no one can sing this like Rafi sahab he sung it in too low note .