Linkwitz Orion
- Thread starter grubyhalo
- Start date
Oh yes I know about them. Before I made my 4way towers I used to search the net like a madmad for a good design to follow. Ultimately I found the site Ciare audio site--
Translated version of http://www.ciare.it/
and I made one.
One thing I have learned is 'it is very tough to procure speakers in a cost effective way for small projects'.
Translated version of http://www.ciare.it/
and I made one.
One thing I have learned is 'it is very tough to procure speakers in a cost effective way for small projects'.
grubyhalo
New Member
in IndiaOne thing I have learned is 'it is very tough to procure speakers in a cost effective way for small projects'.
I'd agree. So did the cost and difficulty to get the components prevent you from going for the Orions? Thanks for the reply
soundsgreat
New Member
Hi,
Sorry I couldn't reply earlier due to some serious virus infestations in my comp !!
Well I did try die hard to build them ! but came across several problems !
First and foremost is the design ! Mr Siegfried has made it mandatory to all the builders of the design not to supply the schematics those who want to build but not buy the design (Yes the design itself costs and you have to buy it) !! So tried all over to get a hold of them but was unsuccessful ( had a brief arguments aswell in Orions Owners forum )
Secondly The cost of the drivers itself is something that an normal Indian like myself cannot afford ! though Madisound sells them in so called discount offer !! it still costs a whopping 1800 $
! add shipping and customs duty here what you end-up is something which I think you can take a Guess,I don't have to tell !
Thridly the cabinet,Although it looks very simple ! its damn tough to get it right (that too without a proper design) ! not many carpenters are capable of doing it right ! as with doing it myself,well it takes all the machines thats common in the west but a luxury here in India !!
And even if you manage to get all of the above resolved we have a huge problem of Electronics ! Remember the Orion's are actively powered ! so getting original electronics is again hurricane task ! and the there's isn't much of other active components that can partnered with this ( if spare the active crossovers available with the Pro-Audio or DJ folks,which will not be as sonically accurate as its required) !
So with all the above constrains and limitations I gave up on Orion's for time being ! so thats the thing with Orions,will try to resurrect them once I get some means to do so !
What I did however was another different set of towers based on totally different principle which is working wonders currently !
Regards.
Sorry I couldn't reply earlier due to some serious virus infestations in my comp !!
Well I did try die hard to build them ! but came across several problems !
First and foremost is the design ! Mr Siegfried has made it mandatory to all the builders of the design not to supply the schematics those who want to build but not buy the design (Yes the design itself costs and you have to buy it)
!! So tried all over to get a hold of them but was unsuccessful ( had a brief arguments aswell in Orions Owners forum )Secondly The cost of the drivers itself is something that an normal Indian like myself cannot afford ! though Madisound sells them in so called discount offer !! it still costs a whopping 1800 $
! add shipping and customs duty here what you end-up is something which I think you can take a Guess,I don't have to tell !Thridly the cabinet,Although it looks very simple ! its damn tough to get it right (that too without a proper design) ! not many carpenters are capable of doing it right ! as with doing it myself,well it takes all the machines thats common in the west but a luxury here in India !!
And even if you manage to get all of the above resolved we have a huge problem of Electronics ! Remember the Orion's are actively powered ! so getting original electronics is again hurricane task ! and the there's isn't much of other active components that can partnered with this ( if spare the active crossovers available with the Pro-Audio or DJ folks,which will not be as sonically accurate as its required) !
So with all the above constrains and limitations I gave up on Orion's for time being ! so thats the thing with Orions,will try to resurrect them once I get some means to do so !
What I did however was another different set of towers based on totally different principle which is working wonders currently !
Regards.
grubyhalo
New Member
Hi Soundsgreat,
Thanks for your post. I agree with your comment about the price of the fully built Orion being exorbitant to the average Indian DIY'er, including myself. Here are a few thoughts of my own on this speaker. Though I'm writing them as counterpoints to your comments, this is just my take on this. Ofcourse, I could be wrong, as I am most of the time.
***WARNING: Long-winded post alert***
1. The construction plan costs $290, which I believe is a fair royalty for the IP rights for a design of this caliber. I personally think that this would just about cover the media for the plans with a small compensation to the innumerable man-hours that Linkwitz has sunk into this project. Also, as mentioned by him, this is not a commercial product for him but a purely voluntary effort at creating a speaker with life-like dynamics and true to source attributes that may have cost manifold if bought from a commercial maker like _______ (Insert your favorite mega-buck speaker company here ).
2. The cost of the driver kit from Madison is $1,832.85, as of today. Now, this is a fair chunk of change in any country, much less here. However, I believe that these are absolutely top-shelf products used generally in speakers costing much, much more. In other words, I believe, you really get your money's worth with this kit.
3. Yup, the cabinet as you mentioned looks simple but could be much harder to make. However, IF one chose to go with the plans, I'm thinking this could be much easier. Ofcourse, provided I manage to find a CNC shop that could do a very good job for a nominal cost. I am yet to find someone for this and am still searching. I am guesstimating a cost of about $400 for the cabinet, including materials, finishing and polishing.
4. The next mountain is the crossover. As I understand from what I've read, discussed and experienced, the crossover can make or break a loudspeaker, and the Orions are no exception. What makes the Orion special is that it uses active crossovers which are inherently superior to the passive ones for a lot of reasons. The catch is unlike the passive types, the active crossover is not a simple 'few inductors and capacitors on a board' thing. According to the latest price on the site, the crossover parts alone come to about $450. Now, I might be tempted enough to just order the completely built and tested unit for about $800 and save myself a lot of trouble.
So, it appears that if I have to build an Orion, I would have to spend about $4500 ($3000+shipping+duty+cabinet). But from what I have read about the speakers and the opinions/reviews of people who have listened to it, you may need to spend upwards of $10,000 to beat it's performance. That, for me, is a bargain.
Ofcourse, I don't have $4500 right off to start building it. But I just might start with the plans, save lots of money, buy drivers, save lots of money, buy crossover, save lots of money, build cabinet, save lots of money and buy amps!
To sum up this long winded boring post, my logic, as twisted as it may be, is this: I want to listen to music as true to the original performance as possible. For that, my cheapest option appears to be the Orion. Ofcourse, I just may have to forget buying a car and stick to my Bullet for another 5 years and be happy with my HD650 and iBasso amp. for now. However, I can dream...
Edit: If anyone's interested in the design science behind the Orion's, here's a lecture he had given at the AES last November. There is a presentation slide as well as an MP3 of his lecture...
Thanks for your post. I agree with your comment about the price of the fully built Orion being exorbitant to the average Indian DIY'er, including myself. Here are a few thoughts of my own on this speaker. Though I'm writing them as counterpoints to your comments, this is just my take on this. Ofcourse, I could be wrong, as I am most of the time.
***WARNING: Long-winded post alert***
1. The construction plan costs $290, which I believe is a fair royalty for the IP rights for a design of this caliber. I personally think that this would just about cover the media for the plans with a small compensation to the innumerable man-hours that Linkwitz has sunk into this project. Also, as mentioned by him, this is not a commercial product for him but a purely voluntary effort at creating a speaker with life-like dynamics and true to source attributes that may have cost manifold if bought from a commercial maker like _______ (Insert your favorite mega-buck speaker company here
).2. The cost of the driver kit from Madison is $1,832.85, as of today. Now, this is a fair chunk of change in any country, much less here. However, I believe that these are absolutely top-shelf products used generally in speakers costing much, much more. In other words, I believe, you really get your money's worth with this kit.
3. Yup, the cabinet as you mentioned looks simple but could be much harder to make. However, IF one chose to go with the plans, I'm thinking this could be much easier. Ofcourse, provided I manage to find a CNC shop that could do a very good job for a nominal cost. I am yet to find someone for this and am still searching. I am guesstimating a cost of about $400 for the cabinet, including materials, finishing and polishing.
4. The next mountain is the crossover. As I understand from what I've read, discussed and experienced, the crossover can make or break a loudspeaker, and the Orions are no exception. What makes the Orion special is that it uses active crossovers which are inherently superior to the passive ones for a lot of reasons. The catch is unlike the passive types, the active crossover is not a simple 'few inductors and capacitors on a board' thing. According to the latest price on the site, the crossover parts alone come to about $450. Now, I might be tempted enough to just order the completely built and tested unit for about $800 and save myself a lot of trouble.
So, it appears that if I have to build an Orion, I would have to spend about $4500 ($3000+shipping+duty+cabinet). But from what I have read about the speakers and the opinions/reviews of people who have listened to it, you may need to spend upwards of $10,000 to beat it's performance. That, for me, is a bargain.
Ofcourse, I don't have $4500 right off to start building it. But I just might start with the plans, save lots of money, buy drivers, save lots of money, buy crossover, save lots of money, build cabinet, save lots of money and buy amps!
To sum up this long winded boring post, my logic, as twisted as it may be, is this: I want to listen to music as true to the original performance as possible. For that, my cheapest option appears to be the Orion. Ofcourse, I just may have to forget buying a car and stick to my Bullet for another 5 years and be happy with my HD650 and iBasso amp. for now. However, I can dream...
Edit: If anyone's interested in the design science behind the Orion's, here's a lecture he had given at the AES last November. There is a presentation slide as well as an MP3 of his lecture...
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soundsgreat
New Member
Hi,
Grubyhalo Well,Am not going to try and counter what you've said ! to a large extent what you say holds good ! I mean thats also the reason for me to be interested in the project (otherwise wouldn't have wasted countless hours on this) !! so Am not going to put a point wise answer to yours !!
But in general,here are few things I'd like to say here !
First and foremost,The charge for the plans ! See I agree that this is not commercial project ! but isn't Linkwitz tied-up Wood Artistry and Madison for same ?? so what does this mean that he's not earning a dime from the countless number of plans,kits,drivers sold ???
Take the Linn Olsen's Ariel for Example ! this yet another master piece of a speaker design,though cannot be directly compared with Orion's but still.... the design is completely free for any one to copy it from the site !! also included are the complete set or instructions for building the same ! So I'd say this is how things should be ! if one wants to buy a 100% proper plans from the designer with complete help he should be able to, at the same time if a person who doesn't want to should also be able atleast get the original plans without support or limited support !! I wouldn't have said this if this was not so much publicised as a Non commercial one !!
I myself Am building this for a friend !! so I can say that these speakers are also sonically as accurate as it can get (now how far will depend on various things which out of scope of this post) ! Another important part is this being 10 times more complicated then Orion's is still available to public for free !! so your statements on the same below cannot be accepted as others who have also spent lot more time on their projects then Orion's (again the Aforementioned Ariel has gone through 6 Versions,so obviously has taken more then 10 times the time ) have given support and designs for free !!
Secondly As I have already mentioned in my earlier post, the folks who built these and in general are somehow made to be very secretive about the things that goes into making (again as I said I have had arguments in on same topic in Orion's Owners forum) !! this makes me wonder how on a Non Commercial project be guarded so much ??? and why ??
I can go on and on but thats not the point !! Although I not even for a second will doubt the credibility of the designer or the design !! but having said that the motives of the designer and builders point me towards a different direction altogether!!
So all I can say is if only this project would've made available to public in much more DIY friendly and much more openly,I would've appreciated it !!
Hope you take my observations in the right way!!
Anything else needs to be clarified ?? please do ask!
Regards.
Grubyhalo Well,Am not going to try and counter what you've said ! to a large extent what you say holds good ! I mean thats also the reason for me to be interested in the project (otherwise wouldn't have wasted countless hours on this) !! so Am not going to put a point wise answer to yours !!
But in general,here are few things I'd like to say here !
First and foremost,The charge for the plans ! See I agree that this is not commercial project ! but isn't Linkwitz tied-up Wood Artistry and Madison for same ?? so what does this mean that he's not earning a dime from the countless number of plans,kits,drivers sold ???
Take the Linn Olsen's Ariel for Example ! this yet another master piece of a speaker design,though cannot be directly compared with Orion's but still.... the design is completely free for any one to copy it from the site !! also included are the complete set or instructions for building the same ! So I'd say this is how things should be ! if one wants to buy a 100% proper plans from the designer with complete help he should be able to, at the same time if a person who doesn't want to should also be able atleast get the original plans without support or limited support !! I wouldn't have said this if this was not so much publicised as a Non commercial one !!
I myself Am building this for a friend !! so I can say that these speakers are also sonically as accurate as it can get (now how far will depend on various things which out of scope of this post) ! Another important part is this being 10 times more complicated then Orion's is still available to public for free !! so your statements on the same below cannot be accepted as others who have also spent lot more time on their projects then Orion's (again the Aforementioned Ariel has gone through 6 Versions,so obviously has taken more then 10 times the time ) have given support and designs for free !!
Secondly As I have already mentioned in my earlier post, the folks who built these and in general are somehow made to be very secretive about the things that goes into making (again as I said I have had arguments in on same topic in Orion's Owners forum) !! this makes me wonder how on a Non Commercial project be guarded so much ??? and why ??
I can go on and on but thats not the point !! Although I not even for a second will doubt the credibility of the designer or the design !! but having said that the motives of the designer and builders point me towards a different direction altogether
!!So all I can say is if only this project would've made available to public in much more DIY friendly and much more openly,I would've appreciated it !!
Hope you take my observations in the right way
!! Anything else needs to be clarified ?? please do ask
!Regards.
grubyhalo
New Member
I agree that there are loads of good design out there for free. However not all of them are this complex (crossover-wise). Also, if it's distributed freely, someone would take advantage of it by copying the design commercially. If it's something I invented, I'd not want it 'stolen'. Probably I'm less selfless than a lot of others.
Also, regarding the parts, I have absolutely no issues if SL makes money out of the kits sold as long as I am not paying more than the market price for the drivers.
Bottom line for me is, for someone to distribute their effort for free is their prerogative. I have no issues paying for the design, but that's just me. Also, I would've LOVED if it was given for free, but I'd pay the man his due if I want to build it.
At the end it's just that I look at it a lot different from you. More importantly, for me building the Orion would just be a mean to an end, i.e listening to music in all it's glory. The speakers and the designer are really in-consequential. I have a couple of other possible speakers that I may look into if I am not able to get the Orions, but I would like to aim for the Orions. Ofcourse, you would be more than welcome to come over and listen to whatever speakers I end up with. The beer's on me.
Also, regarding the parts, I have absolutely no issues if SL makes money out of the kits sold as long as I am not paying more than the market price for the drivers.
Bottom line for me is, for someone to distribute their effort for free is their prerogative. I have no issues paying for the design, but that's just me. Also, I would've LOVED if it was given for free, but I'd pay the man his due if I want to build it.
At the end it's just that I look at it a lot different from you. More importantly, for me building the Orion would just be a mean to an end, i.e listening to music in all it's glory. The speakers and the designer are really in-consequential. I have a couple of other possible speakers that I may look into if I am not able to get the Orions, but I would like to aim for the Orions. Ofcourse, you would be more than welcome to come over and listen to whatever speakers I end up with. The beer's on me.
soundsgreat
New Member
Hi,
Hmm let me not take it any further by adding things ! I have strict policy No ARGUMENTS or MISUNDERSTANDINGS !
Well then we shall move on to the next part ! I also would like to Invite you to Audition my Existing DIY Towers (I hope you already know bout this) !!
Regards.
Hmm let me not take it any further by adding things ! I have strict policy No ARGUMENTS or MISUNDERSTANDINGS !
Well then we shall move on to the next part
! I also would like to Invite you to Audition my Existing DIY Towers (I hope you already know bout this) !!Regards.
grubyhalo
New Member
Hi,
Hmm let me not take it any further by adding things ! I have strict policy No ARGUMENTS or MISUNDERSTANDINGS !
Well then we shall move on to the next part
Regards.
I enjoyed hearing about your point of view and it never was an argument or a mis-understanding. Maybe I should have used more smileys!
Thanks for pointing me to the Ariels. I've spent most of the day reading up on them both at NuthshellHiFi as well as Diyaudio and it's a very interesting design. I might even consider building a pair with a center for my Multi-channel/HT usage. Have you already started work on them yet? What is your projected cost for a pair? Do you have any thread either here or at Diyaudio that tracks the progress of the Ariels? I'll be very much interested to see how it turns out for you.Cheers!
soundsgreat
New Member
Hi,
Hey Buddy Am sorry if I sent a wrong signal!! what I actually meant was if things go a bit further it might end-up in one !! so only just clarified my stand on things in general not particular to this subject,thread or post !! The reason is off late this forum is headed towards a different direction and some folks just want to show that they are the DUDE's with all the Knowledge and Know-How !! so only I've cut down on my active presence ! Hence it was necessary to clarify !
Please do excuse me if I have infused wrong emotions !!
Now thats taken care of,lets move towards the important discussion !!!
You are most welcome my friend and Am glad that you did like the Ariel's coz I was damn sure you will! anytime any help from me please do not hesitate,also you never mentioned from where are you !! coz if you are from Bangalore then perhaps I can help you with the cabinets and stuff as I have some solid sources for them !!
Actually I've started but the progress rate is very slow since Am trying to do this in a different way !! As with the costing I've really never worked out !
One more thing is,The drivers and Crossover components for the said project has been bought from US by the same friend for whom Am making these ! so all I have to do is to just get the boxes done and put the stuff inside and finish it !!
No buddy I've not put this project anywhere !! I can always update you personally if required ! if you need anything just PM me !!
Regards.
Hey Buddy Am sorry if I sent a wrong signal
!! what I actually meant was if things go a bit further it might end-up in one !! so only just clarified my stand on things in general not particular to this subject,thread or post !! The reason is off late this forum is headed towards a different direction and some folks just want to show that they are the DUDE's with all the Knowledge and Know-How !! so only I've cut down on my active presence ! Hence it was necessary to clarify ! Please do excuse me if I have infused wrong emotions
!! Now thats taken care of,lets move towards the important discussion !!!
You are most welcome my friend and Am glad that you did like the Ariel's coz I was damn sure you will
! anytime any help from me please do not hesitate,also you never mentioned from where are you !! coz if you are from Bangalore then perhaps I can help you with the cabinets and stuff as I have some solid sources for them !!Actually I've started but the progress rate is very slow since Am trying to do this in a different way !! As with the costing I've really never worked out !
One more thing is,The drivers and Crossover components for the said project has been bought from US by the same friend for whom Am making these ! so all I have to do is to just get the boxes done and put the stuff inside and finish it !!
No buddy I've not put this project anywhere !! I can always update you personally if required ! if you need anything just PM me !!
Regards.
grubyhalo
New Member
Hi,
Hey Buddy Am sorry if I sent a wrong signal
Please do excuse me if I have infused wrong emotions
Now thats taken care of,lets move towards the important discussion !!!
You are most welcome my friend and Am glad that you did like the Ariel's coz I was damn sure you will
Actually I've started but the progress rate is very slow since Am trying to do this in a different way !! As with the costing I've really never worked out !
One more thing is,The drivers and Crossover components for the said project has been bought from US by the same friend for whom Am making these ! so all I have to do is to just get the boxes done and put the stuff inside and finish it !!
No buddy I've not put this project anywhere !! I can always update you personally if required ! if you need anything just PM me !!
Regards.
Thanks for the offer. I will definitely look you up the next time I come to Bangalore.
grubyhalo
New Member
Hi Soundsgreat,
How's your progress on the Ariels? Have you started your cab construction yet? I had another question regarding the Ariels. It appears that Olson greatly favours the usage of tube amps with these speakers and was curious if you're planning the same as well. If and when I go for the Ariels, I would be using an AVR like the HK AVR354 or the Marantz SR5003, so was wondering about your choice. Let me know if I can PM you for more information if you had started work on them.
Cheers!
P.S: If there are more people who are building or even interested in the Ariels, we could start a new thread...
How's your progress on the Ariels? Have you started your cab construction yet? I had another question regarding the Ariels. It appears that Olson greatly favours the usage of tube amps with these speakers and was curious if you're planning the same as well. If and when I go for the Ariels, I would be using an AVR like the HK AVR354 or the Marantz SR5003, so was wondering about your choice. Let me know if I can PM you for more information if you had started work on them.
Cheers!
P.S: If there are more people who are building or even interested in the Ariels, we could start a new thread...
grubyhalo
New Member
My thoughts on the Orion are pretty much the same as yours. I too have deferred starting the build of Orions due to cost. But one thing I know for sure is, I would be heading that way if and when I can spare the money. Till such time, I'm trying to find out an appropriate set of speakers that would do justice to all the concert DVDs I have. The Ariels are one of the contenders in my line-up for the speakers to give me a taste of nirvana till I can afford the Orions. If I go for the Ariels, it would be the version 6r. The only reason I am hoping to go DIY is the simple fact that the bang for the buck is the most that way, atleast for us Indians. I am also considering the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1, HiVi's Swan 2.1SEs (on sale now) with the Rythmik 12" servo DIY sub, the AV123 Strata Minis and the upcoming X-Optimas. I am hoping to see if I can listen to a completed set of Ariels before biting the bullet to see if they are really all what they are acclaimed to be. What setup do you have at the moment?
grubyhalo
New Member
Absolutely. You would be most welcome if I do build my Orions or any other for that matter. 
soundsgreat
New Member
Hi,
Hi Gruby Sorry for the late reply ! as already mentioned elsewhere Am having some serious PC issues which keeping me away from the net !
But I guess my absence was duly filled by Cranky by his posts !! Hi there Cranky !
Now coming to the Ariel's I have already began the work on them ! but currently its going in a slow pace due certain issues ! some of which are obvious ! but the main issue is Am pre-occupied with something which is a notch higher in the things of agenda thats going on currently ! so this is taking bit longer then I'dve wanted it to be
!
I'll certainly keep you posted on this ! and sorry my mail box ( or Inbox here for the PM) is full with various mails which I haven't had chance to read and reply (folks will be cursing me for that )
Will give my mail ID to you so that we can communicate there !!
Regards.
Hi Gruby Sorry for the late reply ! as already mentioned elsewhere Am having some serious PC issues which keeping me away from the net !
But I guess my absence was duly filled by Cranky by his posts
!! Hi there Cranky !Now coming to the Ariel's I have already began the work on them ! but currently its going in a slow pace due certain issues ! some of which are obvious ! but the main issue is Am pre-occupied with something which is a notch higher in the things of agenda thats going on currently ! so this is taking bit longer then I'dve wanted it to be
!I'll certainly keep you posted on this ! and sorry my mail box ( or Inbox here for the PM) is full with various mails which I haven't had chance to read and reply (folks will be cursing me for that
)Will give my mail ID to you so that we can communicate there !!
Regards.
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grubyhalo
New Member
Sure. I've PM'ed you...
Waking up an old thread...
Have been considering multiple systems since last 3 years - both DIY and ready to buy, but can't convince myself to build/buy something that is not the best. I have auditioned more than 2 dozen of the best available in Mumbai / Bangalore (price no bar), with my own CDs.
Of what's available here, I love Jamo R909 however Orion's are considered way better than these, and might be cheaper too. The boxed speakers just don't have the transparency that open baffles offer!
I am planning to build an Orion+ 3.2 version. Would anyone else interested like to join in? Doing joint development may be lot more fun and helpful.
Have been considering multiple systems since last 3 years - both DIY and ready to buy, but can't convince myself to build/buy something that is not the best. I have auditioned more than 2 dozen of the best available in Mumbai / Bangalore (price no bar), with my own CDs.
Of what's available here, I love Jamo R909 however Orion's are considered way better than these, and might be cheaper too. The boxed speakers just don't have the transparency that open baffles offer!
I am planning to build an Orion+ 3.2 version. Would anyone else interested like to join in? Doing joint development may be lot more fun and helpful.
GeorgeO
Well-Known Member
GR-Research super V OB Kit(Super-V - Super-V) will be cheaper than the Orion and and seems equally good. I remember reading a comparison between the two at Audiocircle.
Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers in Walnut finish at a Special Offer Price. BUY now before the price increase.
