Media Player vs Laptop as a source?

[bizarre]

Hey guys,

This very day I came to know a concept called Media Player (hardware) while browsing through an old issue of AV MAX. I had spent good 50k last month and I had taken an oath of not talking about any spend in a few coming months. But this Media Player product sounded too tempting to forget the oath!

So, if we assume for a second that I'm NOT going to take CDP path, how will a Media Player add value in my system? I understand it will be very convenient to use it instead of laptop, it can play FLAC and it can do wonders when it comes to movies. But in a typical 2-channel audio setup, will a Media Player be a better choice over my Dell laptop?

1. Will it help in improving the sound quality, as compared to laptop?
2. If yes, what media player will you recommend for music purpose? Budget capped at say 15k? Or at any practical budget?

A friend is going to US next month, if you guys help me choose one, will get it from there!

 

[chits007]

Media player , IMO, is a much better & cheaper alternative and they wont compromise anything on sound or video. Get one ! i would say WD TV LIVE ; but take opinions from others tooo..


BTW on what you have spent 50K ? share model & setup ; may be it will help others to learn something from your setup and create their own..

 

[bizarre]

Cost is not the point here. Since I already have a laptop (in fact two), expenditure on a Media Player would be additional, no matter what the amount is. Also I may not buy a Media Player if it has no advantage over a laptop in a stereo setup. I'm not looking at convenience at this point of time.

What I've understood so far (may not be correct) that if I go the DAC way, the digital data from my laptop will be transferred to the DAC using a USB port (or FireWire). On the other hand in Media Player this data can be transferred using an Optical cable or some equivalent interface. So my questions are:

1. Are Media Players bit-perfect (or better than laptops) when it comes to read the digital data?
2. Will Media Player's Optical (or TOSLINK?) port do a better job than laptop's USB or FireWire port for transporting this digital data to the DAC?

P.s. My setup: http://www.hifivision.com/my-audio-video-setup/8996-my-entry-hi-fi-world.html

 

[venkatcr]

1. Are Media Players bit-perfect (or better than laptops) when it comes to read the digital data?

A media player is a conundrum that is supposed to play literally every format you can throw at it. In addition it is meant more for movies than for music. It is not optimised for music.

You have to look at products such as Squeezebox, Sonos, and if you can afford it, Sooloos for transporting music. If you can take the effort of cycling 100GB of music, the best option would be Wadia's 170i dock for the iPod.

2. Will Media Player's Optical (or TOSLINK?) port do a better job than laptop's USB or FireWire port for transporting this digital data to the DAC?

Firewire, Optical, and USB are transport mechanisms. If you do not store and move the data properly internally, it really does not matter how you transport it. A transport mechanism is not going to magically improve your SQ. If you are curious, in terms of reliability it is Firewire, Optical and then USB.

Cheers

 

[reignofchaos]

If your laptop has an HDMI out and a good graphics chip, you'll get image quality equal to a media player. If you only have VGA out, then the media player will destroy the laptop.

If its meant purely for audio, i'd avoid both and get a squeezebox.

 

[bizarre]

You have to look at products such as Squeezebox, Sonos, and if you can afford it, Sooloos for transporting music. If you can take the effort of cycling 100GB of music, the best option would be Wadia's 170i dock for the iPod.

Now, I'm a little more confused. The Squeezebox or Sonos are going to stream music from the laptop itself, right? Over wi-fi or LAN. So, they'll use the laptop hardware to move the data. Maybe Squeezebox is a better player but since the laptop transport is not as good, it is never going to do a good job? Another issue with Squeezebox is the fact that I have to keep the laptop open all the time which means the convenience factor is gone.

No sir, Sooloos or Wadia are too far from my reach. Forget now, I don't see myself buying such stuff in my entire life! :sad:

Firewire, Optical, and USB are transport mechanisms. If you do not store and move the data properly internally, it really does not matter how you transport it. A transport mechanism is not going to magically improve your SQ. If you are curious, in terms of reliability it is Firewire, Optical and then USB.Cheers

So for now, I must concentrate on a good DAC and should forget about a Media Player completely!

 

[venkatcr]

Another issue with Squeezebox is the fact that I have to keep the laptop open all the time which means the convenience factor is gone.

No sir, Sooloos or Wadia are too far from my reach. Forget now, I don't see myself buying such stuff in my entire life! :sad:

Regarding keeping your laptop open, irrespective of what you use, you will have the same issue. If you do not want to keep the laptop open, you

(a) Either have to find a docking station with an external monitor and someway of keeping the laptop on even when the cover is closed, OR

(b) Move your music to an external hard disk and and find a player to go with it. For this, the iPod is the most elegant solution.

BTW, the Wadia 170i is not too expensive.

Cheers

 

[anirvanbhadra]

Regarding keeping your laptop open, irrespective of what you use, you will have the same issue. If you do not want to keep the laptop open, you

(a) Either have to find a docking station with an external monitor and someway of keeping the laptop on even when the cover is closed, OR

(b) Move your music to an external hard disk and and find a player to go with it. For this, the iPod is the most elegant solution.

BTW, the Wadia 170i is not too expensive.

Cheers

Venkat just to reiterate - if only required for music listening - its better to use the iPod as a source using the Wadia dock than WDTV? I just have one issue - what about FLAC files then? do not think the IPOD recos them.

 

[venkatcr]

Venkat just to reiterate - if only required for music listening - its better to use the iPod as a source using the Wadia dock than WDTV? I just have one issue - what about FLAC files then? do not think the IPOD recos them.

Absolutely. The iPod and Wadia combination can beat any media player hands down. Regarding FLAC, there are external applications available that allow you to play FLAC on the iPOD. AIFF is also very good.

Cheers

 

[ashishkesarwani]

Wadia is an expensive proposition when its comes to Docks, whereas a cheaper alternative could be Onkyo's ND-S1, which also acts as a dock for your Ipod as well as a DAC for your Laptop/Computer : Look here for specifications : Onkyo Europe - ND-S1
I am using it at present with a Beresford DAC and I can easily vouch for its quality than any other media player in comparison.

If you have lots and lots of digital music stored onto your computer's HDD then another solution in your case could be the route of NAS and Logitech Squeezbox, as in my case I have a NAS which has all my music stored onto it in lossless format, now I stream the same to my laptop which runs itunes on it, now from here I play it through my system which is connected through a Digital Optical cable from the Apple airport express, this Optical cable from Airport express goes to my Beresford DAC and I control all the music through the remote software installed onto my Iphone without even looking at my Laptop screen.

 

[bizarre]

Thanks Ashish,

Slightly offtopic. Have you ever noticed/compared the performance of:

1. Using Laptop as source and DAC
2. Laptop -> Onkyo ND-S1 (DAC)
3. Laptop -> Beresford Caiman (DAC)
4. Laptop -> Onkyo ND-S1 -> Beresford Caiman (DAC)

I'm thinking of buying a DAC and interested in this sort of comparison. Especially improvement in sound quality with approach #2 and #3 over #1.

Will appreciate the help. Thanks.

 

[thevortex]

Bizarre - how do you use your laptop as a source AND a DAC? Does the laptop in question have a soundcard built-in?

Honestly speaking your aim to compare these DACs has to necessarily be based on a personal listening session. No substitute for that, I am afraid.

 

[ashishkesarwani]

Have you ever noticed/compared the performance of:

1. Using Laptop as source and DAC
2. Laptop -> Onkyo ND-S1 (DAC)
3. Laptop -> Beresford Caiman (DAC)
4. Laptop -> Onkyo ND-S1 -> Beresford Caiman (DAC)

I'm thinking of buying a DAC and interested in this sort of comparison. Especially improvement in sound quality with approach #2 and #3 over #1.

Will appreciate the help. Thanks.

Yes I have used Laptop as the source with all the configuration you have listed i.e using option 1,2,3 and 4.
I would say that when I connect Onkyo ND-S1 directly via the usb to my laptop then in that case the internal soundcard of my laptop gets disabled and Onkyo is shown as the DAC in the volume control panel. Now its a known fact with most external DACs that the sound quality via the USB is not better than the Coaxial or Digital Optical, so to rule this out I connect the Onkyo Dock to the Beresford through Digital Coaxial cable which rules out the limitations of the USB. Somehow I have noticed that when I connect it via the Laptop Beresford route alone then too the sound is nothing great except if I route it through the Onkyo DAC to the Beresford then in that case its quite close to dedicated CD player.

 

[thevortex]

Ashish - I dont think we can generalize and say that USB outs when it comes to DACs are inferior to SPDIF or Optical outs. Any particular reason you say that?

When doing this comparison did you use any ASIO drivers (USB)? What player did you run these tests on?

 

[thevortex]

Also Ashish, I am very curious to know which laptop you are using which has a discrete soundcard in it. I was looking at such an option when I was in the market but did not find too many with that feature. Hence the question.

 

[bizarre]

Vortex,

Laptop howsoever inferior source will have an inbuilt DAC (no matter how crappy), right?

You are right about personal listening experience but I'm not sure as how to go about it. I may not get a chance to test a DAC in my setup!

 

[ashishkesarwani]

Ashish - I dont think we can generalize and say that USB outs when it comes to DACs are inferior to SPDIF or Optical outs. Any particular reason you say that?

When doing this comparison did you use any ASIO drivers (USB)? What player did you run these tests on?

In the case of Beresford or most USB DACs they have this limitation that when its comes to USB the sampling rate doesn't incease beyond 48X with a 16bit audio whereas with Digital Coaxial or Optical this limitation is not there.

I didn't install any specific USB drivers, and I have tested this fact using my Laptop only which is a latest Dell Inspiron with Realtek High Definition Audio installed in it.

 

[ashishkesarwani]

I even did a small experiment to came to this conclusion:
Sometime back I went to Rahul's place (panditji) of our forum and he has a Rotel integrated amp with a NAD 515 Cd Player and Quad 11L BS speakers.
There I connected my Beresford directly to my laptop and played a CD through its Rom as well as directly via NAD cd player and in both the cases I found out that the CD player's output and SQ was far superior in comparison with the DAC + Computer CD rom. To rule this out I then performed this operation by putting Onkyo ND-S1 in between the computer and DAC and in that case the output was very close to the SQ of the CD player.

 

[anm]

beats the theory?

 

[thevortex]

Vortex,

Laptop howsoever inferior source will have an inbuilt DAC (no matter how crappy), right?

You are right about personal listening experience but I'm not sure as how to go about it. I may not get a chance to test a DAC in my setup!

Every laptop is bound to have some sort of a sound circuit - either in the form of an onboard chip or as a standalone sound card. But to rely on the on board sound chip and calling it a DAC is probably taking things a bit too far in my opinion .

In the case of Beresford or most USB DACs they have this limitation that when its comes to USB the sampling rate doesn't incease beyond 48X with a 16bit audio whereas with Digital Coaxial or Optical this limitation is not there.

I didn't install any specific USB drivers, and I have tested this fact using my Laptop only which is a latest Dell Inspiron with Realtek High Definition Audio installed in it.

Hmm...I guess that is restricted to Beresford then. I have not heard them. Also do try using ASIO drivers specifically USB ASIO drivers to compare this mode with the others.

Also sampling rate does not necessarily have a lot to do with perceived sound quality.