Media Player vs Laptop as a source?

[bizarre]

Vortex,

I agree that the chip doing digital-to-analog conversion inside a laptop cannot be called a DAC.

 

[venkatcr]

Wadia is an expensive proposition when its comes to Docks, whereas a cheaper alternative could be Onkyo's ND-S1, which also acts as a dock for your Ipod as well as a DAC for your Laptop/Computer. I am using it at present with a Beresford DAC and I can easily vouch for its quality than any other media player in comparison.

Ashish, there is a vast difference between what Wadia's 170iTransport does and what every other dock in the world does.

The iPod has a connector at the bottom. When you use any dock, the dock get the data after it has been processed by the iPod. Thus whatever you get has already been processed by iPod internal A/D or D/A converter.

Sometime ago Apple initiated a program called called Made For iPod (MFI) that would allow third-party vendors to make specialized products for Apple hardwareincluding porting out digital signals. Wadia worked with Apple and their 170iTransport is the result. In this, the digital music is picked up from the hard disk directly, all the internal electronics are skipped, and the data sent to your external DAC in pristine form.

Unless the Onkyo ND-S1 has the MFI label and uses the same methodology, the way it receives data is completely different.

Using the Wadia dock, a good DAC and amplification, the sound from the iPod is supposed to be identical to that from a high end CD Player.

Cheers

 

[ashishkesarwani]

Ashish, there is a vast difference between what Wadia's 170iTransport does and what every other dock in the world does.

The iPod has a connector at the bottom. When you use any dock, the dock get the data after it has been processed by the iPod. Thus whatever you get has already been processed by iPod internal A/D or D/A converter.

Sometime ago Apple initiated a program called called Made For iPod (MFI) that would allow third-party vendors to make specialized products for Apple hardwareincluding porting out digital signals. Wadia worked with Apple and their 170iTransport is the result. In this, the digital music is picked up from the hard disk directly, all the internal electronics are skipped, and the data sent to your external DAC in pristine form.

Unless the Onkyo ND-S1 has the MFI label and uses the same methodology, the way it receives data is completely different.

Using the Wadia dock, a good DAC and amplification, the sound from the iPod is supposed to be identical to that from a high end CD Player.

Cheers

Thanks Venkat for the explanation but here Onkyo's ND-S1 also is a digital transport and it takes out signals digitally from Ipod just like Wadia. Cost wise Wadia is close to 25K whereas Onkyo is around 13K. I have also left a link to the Onkyo's specification page on my previous thread where I have mentioned the above fact so you can confirm the same from there.

 

[venkatcr]

Thanks Venkat for the explanation but here Onkyo's ND-S1 also is a digital transport and it takes out signals digitally from Ipod just like Wadia. Cost wise Wadia is close to 25K whereas Onkyo is around 13K. I have also left a link to the Onkyo's specification page on my previous thread where I have mentioned the above fact so you can confirm the same from there.

Your are right. The Onkyo ND-S1 also has the MFI stamp, and is capable of taking digital data out of the iPod directly.

Cheers

 

[bizarre]

Sometime ago Apple initiated a program called called Made For iPod (MFI) that would allow third-party vendors to make specialized products for Apple hardwareincluding porting out digital signals. Wadia worked with Apple and their 170iTransport is the result. In this, the digital music is picked up from the hard disk directly, all the internal electronics are skipped, and the data sent to your external DAC in pristine form.

So, in this explanation the iPod is acting like a hard disk? If that's the case, there must be some device that can read directly from a USB device? Something like USB HDD dock?

I don't want to use iPod at all. Do I still have choices in terms of good transport?

 

[magma]

bizzarre
what little idea i have about the music and hours you listen ( and audio in general) and looking at your equip
you should be a happy camper with the following

1. Laptop digital out or usb out - fed into an External Emu 404 usb dac

the emu probably cost less than 200$ and that all the investment youre reqd to make
its a good standalone dac too which you can use later with another setup

My pesonal opinion about dacs ( dont rack your head too much about budget dacs . ive heard a couple . wasnt very impressed with their differnces/value additions. good dacs i found are all above 500-600$)
the emu at 200$ is good bang for the buck when considering a laptop
whats more you can use it later with another transport too when you choose

 

[anm]

well another option is use itunes to play your music on laptop, but stream bit perfect via airport express over wifi(costs approx 5k inr).

So, in this explanation the iPod is acting like a hard disk? If that's the case, there must be some device that can read directly from a USB device? Something like USB HDD dock?

I don't want to use iPod at all. Do I still have choices in terms of good transport?

 

[partymonger]

A media player will do no wonders, simply play all files at acceptable quality..
Vga and hdmi quality is the same, dont let people tell you other wise..

You will hav stereo out on your laptop, use it to drive ur audio setup or use pc speakers..
Or you could also use an external soundcard with optical out..
Dont elongate the chain of devices, it becomes a headache..

A good stereo setup with nice pc speakers will give abt 90% the result of a fancy multiple equipment setup..

 

[partymonger]

Lastly you have a vast choice of media player on pc, you simply cant go beyond the convenience of a pc!

 

[bizarre]

Thanks Magma.

So the media player chapter is over. I had considered EMU 0404 and 0202 long back and I was quite keen on it. Will start exploring it again. I am also keeping an eye on AudiogoN for some expensive (MRP $1000+) but used DACs.

 

[anm]

if you are going the USB emu way, why not also look at peter daniel's usb only dac?

Thanks Magma.

So the media player chapter is over. I had considered EMU 0404 and 0202 long back and I was quite keen on it. Will start exploring it again. I am also keeping an eye on AudiogoN for some expensive (MRP $1000+) but used DACs.

 

[magma]

^^
the peter daniel dac is much more expensive ( even if you buy the kit )
it has lower resale value
and whats most important is that the SQ is very subjective since its a non oversampling dac
if i had to suggest a safer choice to bizzare it would be the emu

 

[marsilians]

Thanks Ashish,

Slightly offtopic. Have you ever noticed/compared the performance of:

1. Using Laptop as source and DAC
2. Laptop -> Onkyo ND-S1 (DAC)
3. Laptop -> Beresford Caiman (DAC)
4. Laptop -> Onkyo ND-S1 -> Beresford Caiman (DAC)

I'm thinking of buying a DAC and interested in this sort of comparison. Especially improvement in sound quality with approach #2 and #3 over #1.

Will appreciate the help. Thanks.

Hi Ashish

I am currently looking at DACs but for a different application altogether. However in the process I have heard couple of the brands.

With regards to laptop as a source, I would go with a stand alone non-oversampling DAC preferably a tubed one. (yes the tube bug has bit me lately).

Between options 2 and 4, you will not gain much as the Onkyo is supposed to be very good by itself.

Another cheaper option is Audio Engine W2 Audioengine - Upgrade your music as well.

If I were setting something up, I would go with something like a 2 as you could use your tend to have more music on your laptop than an ipod anyways (since you need a PC/laptop to transfer the music).

 

[marsilians]

Thanks Venkat for the explanation but here Onkyo's ND-S1 also is a digital transport and it takes out signals digitally from Ipod just like Wadia. Cost wise Wadia is close to 25K whereas Onkyo is around 13K. I have also left a link to the Onkyo's specification page on my previous thread where I have mentioned the above fact so you can confirm the same from there.

Like I said in my other note, a new entry in the ipod doc is Audio Engine W2

Audioengine - Upgrade your music

It has gotten some good reviews and can do wireless transmission as well. But then the quality of the output music depends on the quality of the source on the pod. Unless its lossless there is no need of such devices and a simple Y cable will do

 

[reignofchaos]

^^
the peter daniel dac is much more expensive ( even if you buy the kit )
it has lower resale value
and whats most important is that the SQ is very subjective since its a non oversampling dac
if i had to suggest a safer choice to bizzare it would be the emu

True but in sound quality, the PD DAC is on a different planet compared to EMU 0404.

 

[ashishkesarwani]

With regards to laptop as a source, I would go with a stand alone non-oversampling DAC preferably a tubed one. (yes the tube bug has bit me lately).

Between options 2 and 4, you will not gain much as the Onkyo is supposed to be very good by itself.

Another cheaper option is Audio Engine W2 Audioengine - Upgrade your music as well.

If I were setting something up, I would go with something like a 2 as you could use your tend to have more music on your laptop than an ipod anyways (since you need a PC/laptop to transfer the music).

The Audioengine Dock is a very interesting proposition as it also releaves you of an additional remote to worry about.
In my case I have noticed few differences in the sound signature in comparison with my Onkyo Dock/ Beresford / Oppo BDP 83 / Digital Music via the apple airport express run through Beresford. In all the above cases I feel that the Onkyo AVR DAC is pretty good in itself but once you listen to other options i.e External DAC as well as the DAC of the Oppo then its easier to compare the differences and also the minuses in all the DACs. With Onkyo's DAC I feel that it puts more imphasis on the Dynamic front of any music played through its DAC whereas with Beresford I have found a little improvment in the Mids as well as the Lows which becomes more tighter, now Oppo has a different story to tell here as I find that Oppo excels in the top and mids but in comparison with the Beresford the lows lacks a slight punch.
With Apple Airport Express connected to the Beresford I find that its not as good as the Oppo or Beresford alone but I think that this much I can easily compromise on due to the convienience factor of not changing CDs everytime you want to listen to something else.
After all these tests and experiments I am still unable to find anything as good as a stand alone CD player, as its perpormance is very hard to beat. Not sure about expensive DACs, they might have a different story to tell.

 

[venkatcr]

Like I said in my other note, a new entry in the ipod doc is Audio Engine W2 Audioengine - Upgrade your music

Seems to have a transmission range of just 30 feet. Would that not be a hindrance?

Cheers