Need advice on buying my first hifi system

chander147

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Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum as well as the audiophile music and need advice on buying my first hi-fi system.

I have been using headphones so far to hear music. About a year back, I bought Sennheiser HD560S and IFI HIP DAC2 and that was my first real introduction to audiophile music. I have been watching a lot of speakers and system reviews ever since and came across many good websites and youtube channels that have introduced me to this world of audiophile systems and the terminology of this field. Now I am looking to buy my first hi-fi system for myself and my father. I would really appreciate it if you can give me input on the same.

My requirements are:
a) Source: We will be listening to music from online digital sources such as Amazon music, Spotify, Youtube music etc. No plan at the moment to use any turntable or CD player.
b) Music type: Old Hindi songs, Indian instrumental, Western orchestra, and sometimes English rock music.
c) Connectivity: So we are looking for a system that can connect to online music sources through wifi or via phone through Bluetooth. The ability to add a subwoofer in the future is also needed.
d) TV: If the system can also connect to the TV to improve its sound, that will be a big plus.
e) Speakers: I am looking to buy bookshelf speakers. After seeing many reviews, I have shortlisted Elac debut b5.2 or b6.2 as they look great value for money.


So far I have been advised two kinds of systems from 2-3 different sellers when I approached them for advice online:

a) Network amplifier + bookshelf speakers: Marantz NR1200 + Elac debut speakers as it also allows connection to TV

b) AV receiver with network connectivity + bookshelf speakers: Yamaha rx-v4A + Elac debut speakers as some reviews say that now many AV receivers, like this one, also have very good music output and they allow flexibility to add more speakers in the future. Thus it is argued that they offer more value for money than audio amplifiers.

c) Pure hifi amplifier + bookshelf speakers: Yamaha RS202 + Elac debut speakers as this would be the most cost-effective option and will deliver good sound. However no connection to TV and no wifi connection to network sources. It has however Bluetooth and so I can listen to online music by connecting my phone via Bluetooth but I am not sure if such Bluetooth connection with the phone would compromise sound quality.

My budget for the full system is below 1 lakh and need advice on the following:

a) Should I go for one of the above three amplifier options? Which one? Otherwise, please suggest another amplifier if you feel none of these is good for my requirement.
b) Is my shortlisted speaker Elac debut ok or should I go for some other?
c) Where I reside, there are no hifi sellers nearby and I will have to order online. Which online seller in India is recommended in terms of genuine product, shipping, and after-sales service?

Sorry for the long post. But I would really appreciate it if you can help to resolve my confusion. Since I don't have any option to listen to the system in person before buying, I would decide based on the advice/reviews I get online.

Regards
Chander
 
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum as well as the audiophile music and need advice on buying my first hi-fi system.

I have been using headphones so far to hear music. About a year back, I bought Sennheiser HD560S and IFI HIP DAC2 and that was my first real introduction to audiophile music. I have been watching a lot of speakers and system reviews ever since and came across many good websites and youtube channels that have introduced me to this world of audiophile systems and the terminology of this field. Now I am looking to buy my first hi-fi system for myself and my father. I would really appreciate it if you can give me input on the same.

My requirements are:
a) Source: We will be listening to music from online digital sources such as Amazon music, Spotify, Youtube music etc. No plan at the moment to use any turntable or CD player.
b) Music type: Old Hindi songs, Indian instrumental, Western orchestra, and sometimes English rock music.
c) Connectivity: So we are looking for a system that can connect to online music sources through wifi or via phone through Bluetooth. The ability to add a subwoofer in the future is also needed.
d) TV: If the system can also connect to the TV to improve its sound, that will be a big plus.
e) Speakers: I am looking to buy bookshelf speakers. After seeing many reviews, I have shortlisted Elac debut b5.2 or b6.2 as they look great value for money.


So far I have been advised two kinds of systems from 2-3 different sellers when I approached them for advice online:

a) Network amplifier + bookshelf speakers: Marantz NR1200 + Elac debut speakers as it also allows connection to TV

b) AV receiver with network connectivity + bookshelf speakers: Yamaha rx-v4A + Elac debut speakers as some reviews say that now many AV receivers, like this one, also have very good music output and they allow flexibility to add more speakers in the future. Thus it is argued that they offer more value for money than audio amplifiers.

c) Pure hifi amplifier + bookshelf speakers: Yamaha RS202 + Elac debut speakers as this would be the most cost-effective option and will deliver good sound. However no connection to TV and no wifi connection to network sources. It has however Bluetooth and so I can listen to online music by connecting my phone via Bluetooth but I am not sure if such Bluetooth connection with the phone would compromise sound quality.

My budget for the full system is below 1 lakh and need advice on the following:

a) Should I go for one of the above three amplifier options? Which one? Otherwise, please suggest another amplifier if you feel none of these is good for my requirement.
b) Is my shortlisted speaker Elac debut ok or should I go for some other?
c) Where I reside, there are no hifi sellers nearby and I will have to order online. Which online seller in India is recommended in terms of genuine product, shipping, and after-sales service?

Sorry for the long post. But I would really appreciate it if you can help to resolve my confusion. Since I don't have any option to listen to the system in person before buying, I would decide based on the advice/reviews I get online.

Regards
Chander
Hi, welcome to hfv!
You may also check out IFI Zen Stream + Q Acoustics m20 combo. This combo will meet all your above said requirements and also well within your budget.
 
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum as well as the audiophile music and need advice on buying my first hi-fi system.

I have been using headphones so far to hear music. About a year back, I bought Sennheiser HD560S and IFI HIP DAC2 and that was my first real introduction to audiophile music. I have been watching a lot of speakers and system reviews ever since and came across many good websites and youtube channels that have introduced me to this world of audiophile systems and the terminology of this field. Now I am looking to buy my first hi-fi system for myself and my father. I would really appreciate it if you can give me input on the same.

My requirements are:
a) Source: We will be listening to music from online digital sources such as Amazon music, Spotify, Youtube music etc. No plan at the moment to use any turntable or CD player.
b) Music type: Old Hindi songs, Indian instrumental, Western orchestra, and sometimes English rock music.
c) Connectivity: So we are looking for a system that can connect to online music sources through wifi or via phone through Bluetooth. The ability to add a subwoofer in the future is also needed.
d) TV: If the system can also connect to the TV to improve its sound, that will be a big plus.
e) Speakers: I am looking to buy bookshelf speakers. After seeing many reviews, I have shortlisted Elac debut b5.2 or b6.2 as they look great value for money.


So far I have been advised two kinds of systems from 2-3 different sellers when I approached them for advice online:

a) Network amplifier + bookshelf speakers: Marantz NR1200 + Elac debut speakers as it also allows connection to TV

b) AV receiver with network connectivity + bookshelf speakers: Yamaha rx-v4A + Elac debut speakers as some reviews say that now many AV receivers, like this one, also have very good music output and they allow flexibility to add more speakers in the future. Thus it is argued that they offer more value for money than audio amplifiers.

c) Pure hifi amplifier + bookshelf speakers: Yamaha RS202 + Elac debut speakers as this would be the most cost-effective option and will deliver good sound. However no connection to TV and no wifi connection to network sources. It has however Bluetooth and so I can listen to online music by connecting my phone via Bluetooth but I am not sure if such Bluetooth connection with the phone would compromise sound quality.

My budget for the full system is below 1 lakh and need advice on the following:

a) Should I go for one of the above three amplifier options? Which one? Otherwise, please suggest another amplifier if you feel none of these is good for my requirement.
b) Is my shortlisted speaker Elac debut ok or should I go for some other?
c) Where I reside, there are no hifi sellers nearby and I will have to order online. Which online seller in India is recommended in terms of genuine product, shipping, and after-sales service?

Sorry for the long post. But I would really appreciate it if you can help to resolve my confusion. Since I don't have any option to listen to the system in person before buying, I would decide based on the advice/reviews I get online.

Regards
Chander
Welcome chander 😁...

If I was starting out today, I would definitely have something that accommodates the TV too. I throughly enjoy YouTube music videos, apart from the usual music. So my preference would definitely be the marantz NR1200. Though the inbuilt heos streaming app is not that great, but is livable. It has 80 Watts per channel which should be adequate, plus going down the road you can add a domestically acceptable subwoofer to provide the lower bass that bookshelves can't. And together it will be a very enjoyable listen.

I didn't recommend the yamaha because yamaha's do movies really well, and their sound signature for music is different from the marantz. Not to say you won't like the yamaha more than the marantz. But since you asked for an opinion, above is mine 😁.

I find marantz very musical and forgiving and untiring for long listening sessions. Coming to the speakers, I hope the others will chip in eventually, as I haven't been in the market for speakers in a very very long time. So iam unfamiliar with the current offerings. But before I end, I will add that marantz pair really well with qacoustics. And it is a combination I run at home, and I know a lot of friends in hyderabad who are very happy with the same combination.

I wouldn't bother with a pure 2 channel stereo amp, as it will miss out both the TV and the sub. Which is just not worth it in the end, when it comes to musical enjoyment as well as watching the odd weekend movie with your father and family. All the best.

I've bought almost my entire 5.1.4 atmos setup from hifimart.com. And they are the most reliable online seller in India in my books. I would only consider any other seller if the stuff iam looking for is not available on hifimart.com. And please do watch out for spurious sites and olx sellers. There are lots of posts right on this forum of numerous scams and delays etc.
 


The above amp gives the benefits of HDMI, Subout, Bluetooth(supports aptX HD) and USB(MQA and DSD) for connecting to laptops. Makes for a very neat, minimalist, fun sounding setup with the added benefit of usage with a TV.
 
All your requirement would be met by KEF LS 50 Wireless speakers as an all in one solution and if your budget permits. Sub-woofer can be added to it. (I was drooling over it in the past).

Else as Manohar wrote Marantz NR1200 or a similar package from Denon (forgot the number).

Yamaha do have network receivers. You have to look for R-N series like R-N303. Yamaha does music very well. Used to own one of their stereo amp from 2005. When I auditioned my speakers that time, I had taken it to the showroom to compare with NAD, Cambridge and Denon. The showroom guy was pleasantly surprised that Yamaha sounded better than his offerings. It did not sound harsh nor muddy. Just pleasant.
 
Yamaha do have network receivers. You have to look for R-N series like R-N303. Yamaha does music very well. Used to own one of their stereo amp from 2005. When I auditioned my speakers that time, I had taken it to the showroom to compare with NAD, Cambridge and Denon. The showroom guy was pleasantly surprised that Yamaha sounded better than his offerings. It did not sound harsh nor muddy. Just pleasant.
Indeed. My Yamaha AVR sounds much better than my twice costing tube stereo amp.
 
Hi, welcome to hfv!
You may also check out IFI Zen Stream + Q Acoustics m20 combo. This combo will meet all your above said requirements and also well within your budget.
Thanks PTP for your suggestion. But it looks like this streamer will not connect to TV and does not have a subwoofer out also.

All your requirement would be met by KEF LS 50 Wireless speakers as Used to own one of their stereo amp from 2005. When I auditioned my speakers that time, I had taken it to the showroom to compare with NAD, Cambridge and Denon. The showroom guy was pleasantly surprised that Yamaha sounded better than his offerings. It did not sound harsh nor muddy. Just pleasant.
Thanks Subbu68. I can check these speakers though on a quick search they seem to be beyond my budget.
Regarding streamers, I was indeed first looking at R-N303 but it looks like it is discontinued now by Yamaha. So I was considering Yamaha AV receiver RX-V4A as it also gives the option to expand the system in the future. However, it seems the opinion on using AV receivers for hifi music seems divided. Alternatively, the Yamaha wxa-50 also looked good. But it may lack the power to drive some speakers. Later when I came across NR1200 as recommended by a representative from hifimart, it looked to check all boxes except that it cannot be used to build a surround home theatre system in future which I think is ok for me.

Indeed. My Yamaha AVR sounds much better than my twice costing tube stereo amp.
hello mbhangui,
which yamaha avr are you using?

Welcome chander 😁...

If I was starting out today, I would definitely have something that accommodates the TV too. I throughly enjoy YouTube music videos, ...e most reliable online seller in India in my books. I would only consider any other seller if the stuff iam looking for is not available on hifimart.com. And please do watch out for spurious sites and olx sellers. There are lots of posts right on this forum of numerous scams and delays etc.
Thank you Yelamanchili manohar for your detailed reply.
True. Connecting to TV will also allow enjoying youtube music videos. Regarding yamaha, yes their AVr wx-v4a does give option to even add surround speakers in future. So still debating between NR1200 and this one.

Also I need to zero in on speakers. Elac debut b5.2 or B6.2 are there, also came across some reviews on JBL A130. I must say the more reviews I watch the more confusing it is as opinion about speakers is also divided. Even between B5.2 and B6.2 not sure how much difference is there. I guess this is what happens when you dont have option to audition speakers :) But I hope to finalize the configuration with inputs here



The above amp gives the benefits of HDMI, Subout, Bluetooth(supports aptX HD) and USB(MQA and DSD) for connecting to laptops. Makes for a very neat, minimalist, fun sounding setup with the added benefit of usage with a TV.
Thanks Phew. I will check this amp. Its cost is significantly lower than Marantz NR1200!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi. Adding my 2 paisa to all the advice.

I have not heard the Marantz NR1200, but I do have the Denon DRA800h, the Denon equivalent.
In my experience, the sound quality and performance difference between a 2 channel receiver, and stereo amp is very significant, even though the price point maybe similar.

I would suggest that you look at the following :

1. Marantz PM7000N + Dali Oberon 1 speakers.
This will be slightly above your budget, but will give you a combo with performance that you can enjoy for many years.
The Marantz here is a stereo amp + streamer. It also has optical input, so you can connect your TV.

2. Marantz PM6007 + WiiM mini + Dali Oberon 1s
Combo that gives you everything you need.

3. Q Acoustic M20HD + MiiM mini
As many have pointed out , this is actually a really VFM option, and meets all your needs.
 
If I were starting today, I’d consider a combination of Apple TV and a pair of Apple Home Pods (second generation) in stereo. Well under a lac of rupees, easy setup, excellent UI, decent sound quality, movie plus music (lossless and spatial), space-saving, no cable hassles, clean looks.
 
You're on the right path as far as speaker selection goes. I'd say that you should add a pair of stands from Sound Foundations or any other reputable brand as you definitely want those stand mount speakers positioned in line to your ear level when seated, else you are not going to enjoy them.

As for amplifiers, stick to a Receiver or Network Receiver (Not an AV Receiver). Why pay for features you are not going to use. You have options from Marantz, Yamaha and Onkyo, etc. Besides; you're likely to get a more solid amplifier section than any "built to a price" AV Receiver.

Alternatively and as another FM suggested, get a vanilla integrated amplifier with a digital input and use a Apple TV as the header. I think the newer ones use only HDMI so you may get a bit stuck here.

I'd say that alongside your You Tube research, you need to back that up with some real demonstrations. Nothing beats walking into an audio store, armed with a bunch of familiar music and listening to what you want to buy before hand. 1lac isn't pocket change so even if t means traveling a little to hear something that a You Tuber was ranting about, it will be good to hear and compare notes to the what the video says.
 
Thanks PTP for your suggestion. But it looks like this streamer will not connect to TV and does not have a subwoofer out also.
You can connect you tv or set top box to m20 through optical. Ifi zen can be connected to m20 through usb. M20 has got sub out for adding one subwoofer. Still M20 will be left out with one rca-in if incase you want to add any other device.
You will be controlling zen streamer using a mobile app and there is no need to connect it to tv. M20 supports Bluetooth aptx and also comes with a handy remote.
 
You're on the right path as far as speaker selection goes. I'd say that you should add a pair of stands from Sound Foundations or any other reputable brand as you definitely want those stand mount speakers positioned in line to your ear level when seated, else you are not going to enjoy them.

As for amplifiers, stick to a Receiver or Network Receiver (Not an AV Receiver). Why pay for features you are not going to use. You have options from Marantz, Yamaha and Onkyo, etc. Besides; you're likely to get a more solid amplifier section than any "built to a price" AV Receiver.

Alternatively and as another FM suggested, get a vanilla integrated amplifier with a digital input and use a Apple TV as the header. I think the newer ones use only HDMI so you may get a bit stuck here.

I'd say that alongside your You Tube research, you need to back that up with some real demonstrations. Nothing beats walking into an audio store, armed with a bunch of familiar music and listening to what you want to buy before hand. 1lac isn't pocket change so even if t means traveling a little to hear something that a You Tuber was ranting about, it will be good to hear and compare notes to the what the video says.
Thanks sandeepmohan. Yes I do agree that there would be no equivalent to listening to the system in person. Actually I live in Punjab but it seems like most serious retailers of hifi products are in cities like mumbai, chennai and bangalore. Will consider traveling to mumbai but still will try if I can finalize without traveling :)
 
Hi. Adding my 2 paisa to all the advice.

I have not heard the Marantz NR1200, but I do have the Denon DRA800h, the Denon equivalent.
In my experience, the sound quality and performance difference between a 2 channel receiver, and stereo amp is very significant, even though the price point maybe similar.

I would suggest that you look at the following :

1. Marantz PM7000N + Dali Oberon 1 speakers.
This will be slightly above your budget, but will give you a combo with performance that you can enjoy for many years.
The Marantz here is a stereo amp + streamer. It also has optical input, so you can connect your TV.

2. Marantz PM6007 + WiiM mini + Dali Oberon 1s
Combo that gives you everything you need.

3. Q Acoustic M20HD + MiiM mini
As many have pointed out , this is actually a really VFM option, and meets all your needs.
Thanks argho. Since I am practically a novice in the field of hifi, I am not clear about the difference between 2 channel receiver and stero amp. Following your post, I did search over the net about this in order to understand better and also looked at the components you have suggested.
1. PM7000N looks like the best there is but I think it will take the budget well beyond 1 lakh. PM6007 does save a lot of cost. Can it connect to TV? And does it allow addition of a subwoofer later? It was not clear to me from its specifications
2. You mentioned you have Denon DRA800h which is very similar to nr1200 and that the sound quality of these will be significantly lower than that of PM700N or PM6007. I am not sure the difference would be significant for a novice like me also. I think I will need to see if I can travel to audition both as nr1200 does seem on paper a value for money deal.
2. WiiM mini is not available with hifi mart, a retailer that many others on this forum have recommended. Still I will check its reviews in detail. It is available with another retailer revolver club but the retailer has mixed reviews it seems.
3. I did not come across Dali oberon 1 before your post. It seems they are also not that commonly available online. What is your opinion on Elac b5.2 or b6.2 ?

If PM6007 can connect to TV and allows subwoofer addition, than something like PM6007N + a streamer like wiim mini + speakers like elac may save money as well as deliver a better sound. I wonder if a reputed retailer can give a package deal on this.
 
Actually I live in Punjab but it seems like most serious retailers of hifi products are in cities like mumbai, chennai and bangalore. Will consider traveling to mumbai but still will try if I can finalize without traveling :)
Check some place closer like Delhi and Chandigarh. I am sure there a few good Dealers, Distributors, if not as many as some of the other cities you listed.
 
Thanks argho. Since I am practically a novice in the field of hifi, I am not clear about the difference between 2 channel receiver and stero amp. Following your post, I did search over the net about this in order to understand better and also looked at the components you have suggested.
1. PM7000N looks like the best there is but I think it will take the budget well beyond 1 lakh. PM6007 does save a lot of cost. Can it connect to TV? And does it allow addition of a subwoofer later? It was not clear to me from its specifications
2. You mentioned you have Denon DRA800h which is very similar to nr1200 and that the sound quality of these will be significantly lower than that of PM700N or PM6007. I am not sure the difference would be significant for a novice like me also. I think I will need to see if I can travel to audition both as nr1200 does seem on paper a value for money deal.
2. WiiM mini is not available with hifi mart, a retailer that many others on this forum have recommended. Still I will check its reviews in detail. It is available with another retailer revolver club but the retailer has mixed reviews it seems.
3. I did not come across Dali oberon 1 before your post. It seems they are also not that commonly available online. What is your opinion on Elac b5.2 or b6.2 ?

If PM6007 can connect to TV and allows subwoofer addition, than something like PM6007N + a streamer like wiim mini + speakers like elac may save money as well as deliver a better sound. I wonder if a reputed retailer can give a package deal on this.

My answers as follows :

1. PM7000N looks like the best there is but I think it will take the budget well beyond 1 lakh. PM6007 does save a lot of cost. Can it connect to TV? And does it allow addition of a subwoofer later? It was not clear to me from its specifications

Yes PM6007 can be connected to a TV. Optical out from TV to Optical input in MArantz

Yes, subwoofer can be added to a PM6007. There is a sub out.


2. WiiM mini is not available with hifi mart, a retailer that many others on this forum have recommended. Still I will check its reviews in detail. It is available with another retailer revolver club but the retailer has mixed reviews it seems.

WiiM mini has to be ordered directly from their website. It ships from Europe.
It arrives without a problem. Not much customs duty.



3. I did not come across Dali oberon 1 before your post. It seems they are also not that commonly available online. What is your opinion on Elac b5.2 or b6.2 ?

I have not heard the Elacs. They are also highly regarded.

Dali Oberon 1s are on Amazon. But I would not reccomend buying on Amazon.
Find a Dali dealer in your city.
 
I'm using a Marantz 1509(5.1 with Heos, Airplay etc) with Q Acoustic 3050i speakers connected to my sony 65".
Takes care of everything I wanted as a layman, airplay, streaming whatever & still have the option of adding a sub woofer. See if you can get a good price on the newer Marantz 1510 (currently on Amazon for around similar price to the 6007, maybe Hifi Mart can match the price). Off course prices are high right now, I remember the 6007 being 30k few months back.
Also the Elac 6.2 are really good. I had auditioned them with the Q 3030i & they were far better imo.
But yes, best to hear yourself.
 
Thanks sandeepmohan. Yes I do agree that there would be no equivalent to listening to the system in person. Actually I live in Punjab but it seems like most serious retailers of hifi products are in cities like mumbai, chennai and bangalore. Will consider traveling to mumbai but still will try if I can finalize without traveling :)
My friend recently auditioned these speakers at Watthifi NCR - Dali Oberon 5/7, Wharfedale Diamond 11.3/4, Q acoustics 3050i upon my suggestion. They also had Wharfedale Linton. My friend was looking for floor standers. They had almost all popular brands/models according to my friend.

They may have bookshelf speakers as well for audition. You can check with them. If you need I can get you their address and contact number.
 
My answers as follows :

1. PM7000N looks like the best there is but I think it will take the budget well beyond 1 lakh. PM6007 does save a lot of cost. Can it connect to TV? And does it allow addition of a subwoofer later? It was not clear to me from its specifications

Yes PM6007 can be connected to a TV. Optical out from TV to Optical input in MArantz

Yes, subwoofer can be added to a PM6007. There is a sub out.


2. WiiM mini is not available with hifi mart, a retailer that many others on this forum have recommended. Still I will check its reviews in detail. It is available with another retailer revolver club but the retailer has mixed reviews it seems.

WiiM mini has to be ordered directly from their website. It ships from Europe.
It arrives without a problem. Not much customs duty.



3. I did not come across Dali oberon 1 before your post. It seems they are also not that commonly available online. What is your opinion on Elac b5.2 or b6.2 ?

I have not heard the Elacs. They are also highly regarded.

Dali Oberon 1s are on Amazon. But I would not reccomend buying on Amazon.
Find a Dali dealer in your city.
Thanks for the info argho regarding PM6007. I checked some reviews of wiim mini and it does look good. And although I did not understand the technical discussion fully, it does seem that wiim mini can be connected to PM6007 so that DAC of PM6007 can be used. I will check their website about buying and shipping, though in the past I did have issues with importing stuff as things got stuck at custom. I also checked some reviews of PM6007 and it also looks good in terms of sound quality. While checking these reviews I also came acros an equivalent fom Denon, PMA6000NE which has same tech specs as PM6007 but also has a bluetooth. However, both wiim mini and PMA600NE do not support bluetooth codecs such as aptx hd. So thats a bit of a downer which is addressed in the case of wiim mini through its inbuilt streaming.

I am really grateful for all the inputs here as now I am coming across all these devices and also learning many new things at the same time :)
 
My friend recently auditioned these speakers at Watthifi NCR - Dali Oberon 5/7, Wharfedale Diamond 11.3/4, Q acoustics 3050i upon my suggestion. They also had Wharfedale Linton. My friend was looking for floor standers. They had almost all popular brands/models according to my friend.

They may have bookshelf speakers as well for audition. You can check with them. If you need I can get you their address and contact number.
Thank you sagittarianajay for the info. I was not aware of this showroom. I found some contact details at their page: https://www.watthifi.com/contact-us.html
Are these correct? Otherwise, please do share the details and I will reach out to them.
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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