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Old vs New

AV Cables

csricharan

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Joined
Jul 21, 2011
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65
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Location
navi mumbai
Buying new can give you a nice and heady feeling. But quite often, old can give you a lot more value. It's probably more true with turntables. Here's a video that makes a telling comparison ... Wonder how everyone feels about Old vs New. #Old #New #Turntable #Electronics

 
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kuruvilajacob

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Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
1,215
Points
113
Location
Kottayam
I sold an EMT 938 turntable to a FM member sometime back. He compared it with a 10 K Euro Transrotor turntable and was surprised that the EMT could more than match it . Compared to the Transrotor turntable, he has paid pittance for the EMT. I have several other experience of the vintage turntables out performing new ones.
 

reubensm

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Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
4,657
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Location
Trivandrum, India
I have always been on vintage and will go with vintage, but not adverse to trying new turntables. I have owned only entry level new turntables when I started off but have not tried the better ones. I follow a vinyl religion which is based on the philosophy that a good turntable and cart which does what its supposed to do, can be made to sound outstanding with clever equalization and pre-amplification. On another note, a lot depends on personal choice. I have a friend who says that his Philips Hi-Q international turntable sounds better than my Garrard 301 with SME 3009 tonearm and Shure VIII cart. Price, brand, model and reviews don't matter as much as the personal listening pleasure and its acceptance and enjoyment. If looked at from the investment perspective, when going the old route, a small budget can garner great value but the condition here is that one's got to know how to evaluate during purchase and thereafter, fix and fine-tune things one's self.
 
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Deleted member 38504

Guest
I had my share of vintage. Most was junk with only a "vintage" value tag attached to it. Performance was less than satisfactory except for maybe one of two items. I'll stick to the new.

Maintaining a vintage and service to make it sound like it was is another pain and expensive affair.

PS. maybe I didn't get the right vintage. Other's views may differ. Disclaimer :D
 

Bhaskar Jyoti Talapatra

Active Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
149
Points
43
Location
Kolkata
I had my share of vintage. Most was junk with only a "vintage" value tag attached to it. Performance was less than satisfactory except for maybe one of two items. I'll stick to the new.

Maintaining a vintage and service to make it sound like it was is another pain and expensive affair.

PS. maybe I didn't get the right vintage. Other's views may differ. Disclaimer :D
I had my share of vintage. Most was junk with only a "vintage" value tag attached to it. Performance was less than satisfactory except for maybe one of two items. I'll stick to the new.

Maintaining a vintage and service to make it sound like it was is another pain and expensive affair.

PS. maybe I didn't get the right vintage. Other's views may differ. Disclaimer :D
Hi
Friend
I agree with your view. Finding a good vintage stuff is an ordeal these days. Those are pricey and one should have some technical understanding to get those repaired. So I think it is better to have a new one.
Regards
Bhaskar
 

reubensm

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Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
4,657
Points
113
Location
Trivandrum, India
Dear @reubensm.
I am with you with your thoughts. What you said is truly the truth. Am also impressed as and when I read all your old inserts. They are full of knowledge and wisdom. God bless.
I must also add that the primary de-merits of going the vintage route is, in order to keep something running, one needs 2 things basically, a source for spare parts (not that vintage TTs need too many spares, they are built to last) and someone with the knowledge and skills to service them or repair them. If one has the patience (and funds) to search online and procure spares, and if one has a good technician available or knows to repair these, himself or herself, then there is no doubt that vintage is the way to go. Vintage is gives one maximum value for every rupee (or dollar, pound, euro) spent. After playing around with these, there is no doubt that the build quality and design or vintage turntables is far superior. Another golden rule to remember, always be careful about who you buy your vintage gear from. The best sources for Vintage gears is directly from families, the older enthusiast selling off as he/she does not use these any more, or someone in the family giving it off or someone passes away and his wife sells. This is one's best chance of getting gear in personally owned decent shape (even if not in use). The risk with vintage gear usually come from re-sellers and even from enthusiasts. Remember, someone who is an enthusiast will retain good stuff for himself sell off what he does not want for himself. However there is an anomaly here. Some may have too many or a collection which is being downsized. Careful inspection is the key, not the sales pitch or person's reputation :)
 

reubensm

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Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
4,657
Points
113
Location
Trivandrum, India
Hi
Friend
I agree with your view. Finding a good vintage stuff is an ordeal these days. Those are pricey and one should have some technical understanding to get those repaired. So I think it is better to have a new one.
Regards
Bhaskar
From my experience, vintage gear (especially turntables) available in the Indian market were not used or maintained properly during their running days. Turntables are essentially simple devices so every other quack who tinkers with a few can easily claim to be Technicians. I have seen some examples of turntables repaired by so-called "expert" technicians that look and play great, but when one looks inside, there is either a jugaad job done or a repair job with equivalents (usually salvaged from scrap TTs or from a junk box) or there are modifications with short cuts. A turntable must never be repaired this way. Every component the manufacturer used had a specific reason and hence, only originals should be used. This brings up another problem - where to source parts from?, how expensive is it going to be? The real answer to these questions is - it is not difficult, just requires some patience. If one has access to regular travellers, one can save on shipping. Developing relationships with online sellers bring discounts. There are indeed many ways :) The issue with jugaad techs are that their primary objective is - make the platter turn, get the TT to sing, make the cosmetics look good. The turntable singing and looking good is only the first stage of the process. Calibration and accuracy is what makes it sound great. In my view, one would need to have at least 8-10 years experience with TTs and records to be good at calibrating. Calibrating is not just a technical skill. One must also be a keen music enthusiast and music lover the enjoy the fruits of calibration or detect the flaws of calibration :)

There are 2 easy ways out: (1) buy a new TT, use it for a few years, buy another TT, repeat the process (2) just as how we learn driving in an old bashed up car and then buy a new one, pick up some scrap TT (or watch youtube videos) play around with the internals and learn how it works. They are generally simple machines (with the exception of record changers). Once you master the tricks of the trade, then buy a good vintage one, maintain it and enjoy it for life. The best person/s to care for a child is the father or mother or both. The best person to care for a TT, is its owner.
 
Last edited:

Bhaskar Jyoti Talapatra

Active Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
149
Points
43
Location
Kolkata
From my experience, vintage gear (especially turntables) available in the Indian market were not used or maintained properly during their running days. Turntables are essentially simple devices so every other quack who tinkers with a few can easily claim to be Technicians. I have seen some examples of turntables repaired by so-called "expert" technicians that look and play great, but when one looks inside, there is either a jugaad job done or a repair job with equivalents (usually salvaged from scrap TTs or from a junk box) or there are modifications with short cuts. A turntable must never be repaired this way. Every component the manufacturer used had a specific reason and hence, only originals should be used. This brings up another problem - where to source parts from?, how expensive is it going to be? The real answer to these questions is - it is not difficult, just requires some patience. If one has access to regular travellers, one can save on shipping. Developing relationships with online sellers bring discounts. There are indeed many ways :) The issue with jugaad techs are that their primary objective is - make the platter turn, get the TT to sing, make the cosmetics look good. The turntable singing and looking good is only the first stage of the process. Calibration and accuracy is what makes it sound great. In my view, one would need to have at least 8-10 years experience with TTs and records to be good at calibrating. Calibrating is not just a technical skill. One must also be a keen music enthusiast and music lover the enjoy the fruits of calibration or detect the flaws of calibration :)

There are 2 easy ways out: (1) buy a new TT, use it for a few years, buy another TT, repeat the process (2) just as how we learn driving in an old bashed up car and then buy a new one, pick up some scrap TT (or watch youtube videos) play around with the internals and learn how it works. They are generally simple machines (with the exception of record changers). Once you master the tricks of the trade, then buy a good vintage one, maintain it and enjoy it for life. The best person/s to care for a child is the father or mother or both. The best person to care for a TT, is its owner.
Hi
Reubensm
I am waiting for your view regarding this topic. :D . Because all your views come with lots of information and wisdom. Yes you are right. These days to find a good technician is difficult. Those who are in the market are not at all expert. Last year I bought an old ,used technics sl j2 TT. Unfortunately I couldn't get it repaired. The technician did not know calibration. So I decided to replace it with a new one. But had the technician been expert I would have a technics with me just as I have Philips high q international. Though I have an Audiotechnica LP 60 ,I crave for a manual tt.because my journey with the vinyls started with a manual TT. Even now when I go to Kolkata to buy vinyls I wistfully look at used tts at Wellington:p
Regards
Bhaskar
 

rupy

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
106
Points
18
Location
chandigarh
The
I have always been on vintage and will go with vintage, but not adverse to trying new turntables. I have owned only entry level new turntables when I started off but have not tried the better ones. I follow a vinyl religion which is based on the philosophy that a good turntable and cart which does what its supposed to do, can be made to sound outstanding with clever equalization and pre-amplification. On another note, a lot depends on personal choice. I have a friend who says that his Philips Hi-Q international turntable sounds better than my Garrard 301 with SME 3009 tonearm and Shure VIII cart. Price, brand, model and reviews don't matter as much as the personal listening pleasure and its acceptance and enjoyment. If looked at from the investment perspective, when going the old route, a small budget can garner great value but the condition here is that one's got to know how to evaluate during purchase and thereafter, fix and fine-tune things one's self.
The Philips Hi-Q International was great and the Philips Hi-Fi International was even better.Both never gave any extreme frequencies,but they sounded very pleasing.Delicious sound.
 
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Bhaskar Jyoti Talapatra

Active Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
149
Points
43
Location
Kolkata
The

The Philips Hi-Q International was great and the Philips Hi-Fi International was even better.Both never gave any extreme frequencies,but they sounded very pleasing.Delicious sound.
Hi
Friend
I have a Philips highq international which has been with me for near about 20 years. Undoubtedly it is a very nice record player with ceramic cart. It really sounds very sweet.
Regards
Bhaskar
 

snappysam

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
47
Points
8
Location
Cochin
Hi
Friend
I have a Philips highq international which has been with me for near about 20 years. Undoubtedly it is a very nice record player with ceramic cart. It really sounds very sweet.
Regards
Bhaskar
Dear Bhaskar

Is it true that Ceramic Cartridges damages vinyl. Just starting out on my Vinyl journey, so this noob question.
 

Bhaskar Jyoti Talapatra

Active Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
149
Points
43
Location
Kolkata
Dear Bhaskar

Is it true that Ceramic Cartridges damages vinyl. Just starting out on my Vinyl journey, so this noob question.
Hi
Snappysam
I don't think that the ceramic cart can damage records. I have Hi q international for so many years.Before it I had HMV FIESTA.But then also I had no such experience.
Regards
Bhaskar
 

reubensm

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Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
4,657
Points
113
Location
Trivandrum, India
Dear Bhaskar

Is it true that Ceramic Cartridges damages vinyl. Just starting out on my Vinyl journey, so this noob question.
This is a good question and is usually associated with a lot of 'hear-say' and internet opinion. From personal experience, it depends on some variables namely 1) VTF, 2) type of stylus and 3) user awareness

When ceramic cartridges are used with good tonearms, properly aligned and tracking at around 4-6 grams, they are not likely to impact the record grooves. People usually encounter ceramic cartridges running of basic tonearms without heavy VTF, of over 8-10 grams. This is likely to create problems, and styli will wear off faster as well

The type of stylus is important, you'd find diamond tips on the most expensive stylus types for ceramics but the common material used is sapphire. These wear off faster and stylus usage needs to be monitored. A flattish stylus will damage grooves. Also some ceramics come with flip styli with separate styli for microgroove and 78 rpm records. The correct stylus should be chosen or either the microgroove record (if the 78 tip is used) or the stylus (if the microgroove stylus is used for playing 78s) may get damaged.

Users also tend to take ceramic carts for granted, usually play very old and dusty records using them, manhandle them, do not change the stylus when worn, etc. A ceramic cart and stylus has to be cleaned and handled with the same process (including timely replacement) and care as with a magnetic cart and stylus.

In the early times when there was no ebay or turntableneedles.com, my father used to buy his magnetic replacement styli from brick and motor shops in the US, hence he sparingly used them and actually used only 2 of these over his LP listening lifetime from the 1960s to the 1980s. Most of the regular weekend listening (marathon sessions) were based on a humble EEI CS2000 ceramic cart running on a Garrard SP25 mk1 turntable (he used 6 gms standard VTF). After all those years of listening, I still play his records on my Garrard 301 with SME 3009 and Shure-V III cart, without any noticeable record wear.

Hope this helps :)

Disclaimer: The Garrard SP25 mk1 was a 1960s transcription turntable with a balanced tonearm which gave decent results when calibrated well. This deck and tonearm were far superior to HMV and Philips turntables available in the Indian market at the time. It was not until the Cosmics and Sonodyne turntables (and EMI Sonic, perhaps the Philips 242) arrived, that India experienced decent tables with good tonearms.

Note: enthusiasts usually write off ceramic carts but with a good ceramic phonostage, they can sound very nice, sometimes even better than some of the magnetic cartridges available with mass-manufactured turntables. In my opinion, Sonotone 8T cartridges were the best, while EEI cartridges were the best in the Indian market.
 

greenhorn

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,763
Points
113
Location
06851
New TT are depreciating assets. Old ones, if you are willing to invest some time, are appreciating ones. But I've bought all my tts from abroad for a pittance and fixed them up!
 
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