Orchestral music - getting it right

[murali]

An excellent read...

High Romanticism and the Sound of Recorded Music

cheers.
murali

 

[Staxxx]

This is a hugely interesting article to me. With an extensive collection of western classical orchestral music, the honest reproduction of this music has always been a dilemma and one, I came to the conclusion, that could never be solved. Hence over the last twenty years my passion for this music was clearly divided between live concert going and audio reproduction - never expecting the two to really meet. And that has been the secret of not going crazy!
It is good to have all the issues you sense being elucidated clearly in the article. Thanks !!

 

[Nikhil]

Mind blowing stuff. Great article!!!

 

[malvai]

what a mind-blowing article... will be going back to it again and again!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Fascinating article. Thank you

 

[ajay124]

Wonderful article. Speed read it for the moment. Will read it again when I have more time. A couple of sentences (more to do with music than with hifi) caught my attention

"Conspicuous among the aesthetic problems is that the ubiquity of rock music, with its grotesquely exaggerated high frequencies, habituates people not only to some extremely bad music, but also to excessively bright sound, so that natural symphonic music can sound dull, to mention one depressing item"

Completely agree. Rock music is essentially high pitched noise + juvenile lyrics.

"Almost every orchestral composition from, say 1860 to 1913, was written either under Wagnerian influence or in deliberate rejection of it."

Both Beethoven and Wagner had a huge impact on the music composed between 1820-1913. Many composers were heavily influenced by them. A few rejected or attempted to move beyond their all pervasive influence. Personally I have never enjoyed listening to Wagner. The Big B is in a different league all together. A league of one. Composers can strive forever to join that league. But they will all fail.

"No composer has ever been written about more than Wagner"

I don't agree with that one. The author of the article seems to be a huge fan of Wagner. The opening sentences have a highly adulatory tone.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Rock music is essentially high pitched noise + juvenile lyrics.

You might be confusing it with "pop" music. There has been a lot of really great music under the general heading of rock. Some of it has even been played by classically-trained musiciams, and the results often show when it comes to separating wheat from chaffe in that genre. Equally, some extraordinary poetry has provided the lyrics.

I suspect that there has always been heaps of rubbish: it is but a handful that survives the test of time. It would be nice if that was always a matter of quality, but I'm sure a lot of good stuff gets lost too.

Whilst this article was very much about Big Orchestral Music, one could certainly think of other kinds of music while reading it.

 

[ajay124]

Thad

Rock music is essentially high pitched noise + juvenile lyrics.

Read in isolation this sentence may sound extremely arbitrary. But I would like to add that I came to this conclusion only after listening to rock music seriously for 20 years and casually (nostalgically) for another 15. Now I really don't believe there is much qualitative difference between pop and rock music. Between Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Abba and Carpenters. In fact I prefer the simplicity of Abba and Carpenters to what I perceive to be the pretentiousness of Floyd and Led Zep.

Mainstream music and cinema is big business. It has the numbers and it has the whole might of the hype creating media behind it. One can easily be swept away by it. One can easily be convinced that the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson or Madonna are incredible and incomparable musical phenomenons. One can easily be convinced that cinema means only Hollywood and Bollywood. Maybe it is true. And maybe it ain't true. Growing up means coming to your own conclusions. And accepting the conclusions of others (including mine ) with a grain of salt.

 

[Nikhil]

So much of what he says is so simple and straight forward. Natural sound is something that hi fidelity should ultimately move towards. Very interesting to see why and where the paths diverged in the article. Although I'm not sure if the Europeans have intrinsically imbibed this classical background into their designs. Still very interesting to see why some things are the way they are.

Some of the stuff is pretty heavy. Nothing short of a seismic shift in the way high end audio needs to go.

 

[Hiten]

Did a quick read of the article.

This audience spatial impression is easily reproducible. In fact, the angular extent seems to happen almost automatically. (From close up, the angular extent of an orchestra is almost 180 degrees -- try to do that with your phase-driven, outside-the-speaker images.) But this spatial impression is utterly inconsistent with a close-up tonal perspective.

The point is that if instruments sound tonally close-up, then it is extremely unnatural for them not to seem very large too. If a concert grand piano is recorded so close that one hears hammer tone and action noise and the bright, aggressive tone they have close up, then it also needs to sound nine feet long. And if it is the solo portion of a piano concerto, then the orchestra needs to sound 50 or 60 feet wide.

Didn't 2chFreak said same thing in 'Speakers that disappear' thread about instruments that seemed big. Now it makes sense.

The author seemed a just a little bit harsh on F. R. Watson and Bell Labs for encouraging 'Direct sound recording' and 'stereo' and sacrificing orchestral classical music ambience. May be he is right, but I think Americans are enterprising people and do things innovatively on big scale. Elvis/Beatles were on the scene, music was changing and change was inevitable. In class vs mass, mass always win so did the popular music. So may be developing stereo and direct sound recording (Studio albums) was a natural process.

His other articles are also excellent.
REGONAUDIO

 

[Staxxx]

so that natural symphonic music can sound dull, to mention one depressing item" [/I]

Most of the really high end systems I have heard have all the detail and more while sounding almost discreet !

 

[square_wave]

Superb article. Thanks for sharing.

 

[murali]

Most of the really high end systems I have heard have all the detail and more while sounding almost discreet !

In the last 10-15 years, all my system upgradings were done with focus always on getting big orchestral music sound better (I am not saying "right") as the classical pieces, professionally recorded, are the only ones that give the depth, width and height in a soundstage, the dynamics required to really appreciate music, and resolution to hear every piece of orchestra sounding in the stage. Some good examples I can give include the original recording of Gladiator, some SACD's I have of Western classical music, and most importantly, Ravel's Bolero (SACD) thanks to Arthur Salvatore's recommendations. As my system grew, with the Arcam/Ayre CDP, VTL/ARC preamp, Ayre/Aesthetix power amp, 2Ce/Quatro Vandy speakers, AQ interconnencts and double biwire speaker cables, power cords, stands and racks, etc, the Bolero has always sounded better and better. The depth was never a major issue but the width and dynamics, especially instruments expected way outside the speaker boundaries, is always the challenge. With a high-end system, the instruments sound more and more discrete, with layering (front-to-back and side-to-side), but always increasing the presence of the whole music. It is difficult to describe such changes in words and only listening helps to understand.

Happy listening and cheers.
murali

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Western classical, and orchestral in particular, music, is what gave birth to the desire for hi-fidelity listening in the home. Nothing else can offer its chalenges. It challenges the ear and the mind, let alone any equipment that records or reproduces it!

Of course, it helps if one likes it...

 

[ajay124]

Of course, it helps if one likes it...

The easiest route to start liking western classical music would be to begin with the most likable of all the composers. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

Some of his most easily likable works:

Eine kleine Nachtmusik

Mozart - Eine kleine Nachtmusik (on period instruments) - YouTube

Massimiliano Ferrati plays Mozart "Turkish March" - YouTube

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - Symphony No. 25 in G minor - YouTube

Mozart concerto 20 in d, K.466 - 1. Allegro (1of2) Gulda - YouTube

Mozart The Magic Flute Queen of the Night Aria - YouTube

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I don't know if the same is true in India, perhaps not, but back in UK, at least in pre-Lennon+Mccartney days, I had the theory that the miscelaneous melodies that people find themselves humming, whistling, or just earworming inside their heads could, 9 times out of ten, be traced to Mozart or Beethoven. People know a great deal more classical music than they think they do!

 

[murali]

I don't know if the same is true in India, perhaps not, but back in UK, at least in pre-Lennon+Mccartney days, I had the theory that the miscelaneous melodies that people find themselves humming, whistling, or just earworming inside their heads could, 9 times out of ten, be traced to Mozart or Beethoven. People know a great deal more classical music than they think they do!

Not entirely correct. I, for one, grew up in the era of Lennon-McCartney and still remember (with gratitude) some of my friends who used to own "record players" (now turntables, right?) and several Beatles records and were kind enough to play them in front of me. Growing up in a lower middle class family with only the "valve radio" at disposal, there are nostalgic memories when I used to struggle with the SW bands trying to capture those great English songs relayed from Radio Ceylon (Sri Lanka, now) those days.
Even today, having the affordability to own a high-end system, whenever I play the box set of The Beatles, music becomes bliss. We all can enjoy many different kinds of music though not all.
Of course, Western Classical is something different and perhaps most telling whenever I feel gloomy or need to forget everything and float (except if I have a Scotch or wine in my hands) into the world of true happiness and love. A great orchestral music right in front of you makes everything else disappear as long as it is played at reasonable volume without your neighbours starting to ring your front bell.
Sorry for getting carried away, but just sharing some thoughts. It is also sad to see several of our old stalwarts now keeping totally silent in this forum and may be, they have their own reasons.
I know some of them share my view that a forum like this is meant to discuss things in constructive ways to find out what is right and what is not, rather than who is right and who is not. Of course, we also tend to stay away when sales pitch overcomes information and sharing of information.

Happy listening, all, and all the best.

murali

 

[ajay124]

Frequent, thinly disguised sales pitches overpowering a genuine sharing of information between hifi enthusiasts = Death of a forum. There is nothing wrong with a direct sales pitch from a dealer. They have every right to promote their brands. But this promotion should be done in an open and transparent manner by providing all the relevant information and reviews about their products, prices and after sales service. Sometimes on hifi forums one comes across fm's who are actually promoting a particular brand or a dealer under the guise of casual exchange of information. Such practices should be avoided on a free and fair forum.

 

[alpha1]

It has the numbers and it has the whole might of the hype creating media behind it. One can easily be swept away by it. One can easily be convinced that the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson or Madonna are incredible and incomparable musical phenomenons. One can easily be convinced that cinema means only Hollywood and Bollywood. Maybe it is true. And maybe it ain't true. Growing up means coming to your own conclusions. And accepting the conclusions of others (including mine ) with a grain of salt.

Similarly, one can easily get convinced that a piano sounds RIGHT only in a concert hall when listened from 33.33333 ft away at and angle of ?/2 radians from the axis of the piano and the performer, where you get a reverberation time of ? seconds.

The point being that when Wagner's symphonies were composed - they were done after keeping in mind the concert acoustics.

Modern music is made keeping in mind the microphone and hi-fi system.
That's why it is so "in your face" and doesn't sound like it is coming from miles away.
Also piano, violin etc in modern music is supposed to give a feeling that you are siting right besides the player.
Hence, in my opinion, the RIGHT way to mic them is by being close to the instrument.

I, quite frankly, don't get your tirade against the high frequencies in rock music!
Hi hats and cymbals ARE High frequency equipment - carrying sound energy till 16 kHz.
Classical music doesn't employ any such equipment and hence roll off at 4 kHz is desirable.

The audience usually hears a sustained sound with more bass and always with much less high-frequency content than do close-up microphones. The roll-off starts around 4 kHz, sometimes as low as 2 kHz. And, by 8 kHz, the roll-off is severe, and increasingly so as frequency rises. Remember: beyond 20 feet from the instrument, most of what you hear is hall sound, with almost no highs and slightly --but only slightly -- reduced presence

I agree.
But this is funny since the most vehement opponents of compressed music are the ones who listen to Classical music - which is mathematically the least complex - and thus compression doesn't lose any musical information.

 

[jls001]

But this is funny since the most vehement opponents of compressed music are the ones who listen to Classical music - which is mathematically the least complex - and thus compression doesn't lose any musical information.

Will compression not compromise the natural dynamics of classical recordings? After all most compression algorithms happily normalise sound (lower loud passages and bring up low passages). Personally, I thrive on that momentary kick of a sudden loud passage. And enjoy a conductor gesticulating wildly to perfectly time that loud passage where tympani, brass section, strings, and everyone else gives it their all.