Orchestral music - getting it right

[Thad E Ginathom]

Almost all of the dead studio albums are pretty much crap.

But I still wouldn't want to be without, at least, the first four from my list.

It takes a real deadhead to negotiate the vast amount of material on archive.org. Some of the material there is just as good as non-free sources, but I go to Wolgang's Vault. The price that you pay is ...the price that you pay!

 

[square_wave]

5 minute converted mp3 of a rock band screaming their heart out with all the instruments being worked at a heightened state of frenzy

5 minute converted mp3 of a classical piece orchestra

5 minute converted mp3 of a solo piano


The rock mp3 will most probably N-E-E-D to store more information. However, the size of this stored information has nothing to do with complexity and frequency information.

 

[jls001]

Acoustic music doesn't have any difficult to encode fast transients.

May I point you to the music of John McLaughlin - playing acoustic guitar - like his performance on Zakir Hussain's Making Music (track name also Making Music); or Jan Garbarek on the same album/same track playing soprano sax; or Pandit Hariprasad Chaurasia on many tracks in this same album; or the music of Hui Fen Min playing a two-stringed, violin-like instrument called Erhu on River of Sorrow; or another classical Chinese instrument called guzheng (the same instrument played by the two hired assassins in Kungfu Hustle which launched swords when they strummed it). Or listen to small ensemble jazz where saxaphone or trumpet are the center pieces. Or orchestral pieces written for the organ.

Most of the above are closed mic-ed during the recording process itself to highlight the dynamic contrasts and give it a sense of being very close the performer. Some succeed, some less so. Closed mic-ing also helps in capturing more nuances and micro details from these instruments.

If you listen to more acoustic music, you will better appreciate their complexity. And their beauty.

Having said all this, I would like to make it clear that I have nothing against electronically synthesized music or amplified music. In fact the one thing that led me to real, acoustic massed strings is after hearing the beauty of the electronically generated fascimile. The real one has its place as does the synth version.

 

[ajay124]

Joshua

Or you can simply tune into:

gdradio.net - streaming Grateful Dead and more!

 

[jls001]

Joshua

Or you can simply tune into:

gdradio.net - streaming Grateful Dead and more!

Thanks, Ajay. Will do. I remember I have Aoxamoxa and American Beauty, lying somewhere deep in my CD drawers. Need to dig out those as well.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Fast transients certainly seem to go with acoustic music --- wherever there is percussion involved, for starters. The cymbal must be the classic instance: fast and loud.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thanks, Ajay. Will do. I remember I have Aoxamoxa and American Beauty, lying somewhere deep in my CD drawers. Need to dig out those as well.

You absolutely have to be in the right mood for that stuff or you'll hate it passionately!

Some of it is pure experimental knob twisting that should probably never have been released. What's become of the Baby? at one end of the scale, and sweet psudo-mythology [almost?] acoustic Mountains of The Moon at the other

 

[ajay124]

Almost all of the dead studio albums are pretty much crap. you want to listen to dead, listen to their live shows. You can buy some as albums (dicks picks, europe 72 etc). most of the dead live shows are available as free music online on various sites (its legal). archive.org has thousands of shows, you can download them or stream them. iirc soundboards are only streamable from archive.org, but can be downloaded from elsewhere (again, legally).

oh, and its all flac.

Grateful Dead is more fun when you listen to their live recordings. Preferably in a mildly intoxicated state. But even from their studio albums one can cherry pick a few songs which would rate among the best from those times. My favorites are both from American Beauty. Truckin' has a quintessentially America of the 60's feel. Definitely deserves a place in the top 100 rock songs of all times.

Grateful Dead - Truckin' (Studio Version) - YouTube

Grateful Dead - Box of Rain (Studio Version) - YouTube

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

American Beauty is a very aptly named album. There are some very beautiful songs there.

 

[doors666]

Thad

Rock music is essentially high pitched noise + juvenile lyrics.

Read in isolation this sentence may sound extremely arbitrary. But I would like to add that I came to this conclusion only after listening to rock music seriously for 20 years and casually (nostalgically) for another 15. Now I really don't believe there is much qualitative difference between pop and rock music. Between Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Abba and Carpenters. In fact I prefer the simplicity of Abba and Carpenters to what I perceive to be the pretentiousness of Floyd and Led Zep.

Mainstream music and cinema is big business. It has the numbers and it has the whole might of the hype creating media behind it. One can easily be swept away by it. One can easily be convinced that the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson or Madonna are incredible and incomparable musical phenomenons. One can easily be convinced that cinema means only Hollywood and Bollywood. Maybe it is true. And maybe it ain't true. Growing up means coming to your own conclusions. And accepting the conclusions of others (including mine ) with a grain of salt.

Thats a very simplistic view at best. Music is a very personal choice and age plays a big factor. If you catch someone who's never heard of any of these kind of music and hence is unbiased, a young teenager is likely to prefer rock/metal/rap/pop over classical/jazz etc. If you play these for my dad (he hasnt heard these either), he would surely prefer classical/jazz etc over rock/metal etc.

Since you say you have heard rock etc for over 20 years and then came to this conclusion, dont forget that you actually preferred rock/pop over classical/jazz at those times. Its not that you were unaware of the existence of classical/jazz or never ever got a chance to listen to this, you probably did, but preferred rock over it. Talk to a 20 year old and he will tell you that mahler is garbage and pink floyd (or whatever rock band) is the greatest ever. Beauty lies in the ears of the beholder.

Many of the old timer rock musicians have been playing their instruments for their lifetime, 50+ years. They can play real good stuff. I am pretty sure david gilmour is as good a guitarist as a john mclaughlin, its just that they play different kind of music. lyrics, well it varies from juvenile to awesome poetry, but thats expected considering the long history and all sorts of people doing the writing.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

We are all different, and will have different tastes, which is natural and should be accepted.

However, there has always been a difference between serious music and light music. Perhaps my view is as prejudiced, but I believe there is music that raises our spirits, stimulates our brains and our souls, and music that, err... doesn't. The music that doesn't keeps people down, it anaesthatises them and makes the stupid more stupid. Back in the days when records were falling into shopping baskets, what were those baskets full of? Progressive rock, or top twenty? I worked in a London record store for a couple of weeks once: I wasn't allowed to play anything inteligent as background music.

I do not think the "musical division" according to either how old it is or on what instruments it is played is valid at all. Good, inteligent music can be played by people with electric/electronic instruments just as it can be played by an orchestra, and, I guess, so can bad music.

 

[Staxxx]

You are quite correct that there are very few recordings that could justifiably be claimed to be 'acoustic mirror images of orchestral concerts.
That is partly due to the fact that 92% of all classical music CDs are out of phase.
Secondly, the majority, once again, are over engineered. Two many microphones, incorrectly positioned microphones, too much reverberation etc. In short the sound is unnatural.
I have spent my entire life working with music, as a musician, artists agent, concert promoter, recording engineer and now as a CD publisher.
All the critical points I have raised have been the criteria on which my recordings were produced.
Only two microphones were used to record full symphony orchestras or any combination of instruments in chamber ensembles.
Secondly no adjustments of any sort were made to the recorded sound, leaving the conductor in charge of balance, dynamics and tonal quality.
The end results speak for themselves. In fact a recently released recording I made in 1967 of the Polish violinist Wanda Wilkomirska playing the Benjamin Britten violin concerto with the Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Witold Rowicki has just won the prize for Best Historic Recording by the German Record Critics' Association.
The recording, along with all others, in the series: The Virtual Concert Hall Series, appears on the Orchestral Concert CDs label.
The website has extended, high quality sound sample from each of the 14 CDs so far published.
I am confident you would agree that the sound is absolutely natural, should you acquire any of them.
Best Wishes,
Geoffrey

Dear Geoffrey
I will certainly try and lay my hands on a few of your recordings. I like the idea of minimally miking the orchestra or performer. As a pianist the mike placement that varies in so many recordings really drives me mad. I have always hated the way the BIG labels (DG etc.) have over-miked orchestras....how can that sound natural?

Also I live with the Rowicki Dvorak symphonies so will certainly look for other work that he conducted.
Thanks!