Pace, Rhythm and Dynamics

I think the thought proccess here is quite straight forward :

Speed of the track VS the ability of a design to portray the agility in the musical content. Some designs seems to hold this aspect of sound as sacrosanct.

The speed of a track is alright even in cheap two in one provided the gear is mechanically stable.
 
Absolutely correct Vinny. Not sure if we are discussing mechanical speed or musical agility. :p
 
It would appear to come down to this: a hifi system either reproduces music satisfactorily, or it does not! If it does not, then, plainly it is not hifi, or anything even approaching it.

I don't even pretend to think that all equipment that rates "hifi" sounds the same. It doesn't. In an ideal world, of course, it would, because it would be reproducing the sound from the media with high fidelity, ie, truth. In the same ideal world, that media would also be true to the original performance. Doubtless, there are engineers who try to achieve this ideal, rather than aiming to blast teenage ears with loudness. It is probably also equally valid to include the mixing desk as part of the creative process, and part of creating what musicians want to be heard: it is still fidelity to the artistic intention, if not to the exact sounds as played on the instruments.

So, when this medium reaches our houses, the music is going to sound different, according to every factor from what the medium actually is to the pieces of equipment used in its reproduction and the acoustics of the room in which it is played. Oh, and the listener's ears; that should be obvious, but it is easy to forget.

According to the link previously given
Only four parameters are needed to define everything that affects audio quality: Noise, frequency response, distortion, and time-based errors.
What? No pace? No rhythmic stability? Well, apparently not.

Although some are more or less familiar with the sound of real musical instruments, there cannot be many recordings in our collections where we were actually present at the performance. Therefore, we are not actually in a position to assess the fidelity of the recording or its reproduction on our equipment.

We certainly can differentiate between, say, equipment-chain-a and equipment-chain-b down to a level of detail (eg being able to hear more of a plucked string from pluck through to decay, no doubt to to different frequency response and dynamic range) and certainly, all of these details contribute to the overall listening experience --- but do we need the language of the overblown amateur wine taster to describe this? Do we need to talk in pseudo-technical terms about something that is either technically describable, or subjective.

As I think about these things (And I probably wouldn't have thought very much about them if I hadn't joined this forum :) ) I am coming to think that, over and above the practical plucked-string stuff, people have individual preference for different flavours of sound (flavour? Have I broken my own rule here? ;)). We do not know what the original performance sounded like, but we know what we like it to sound like when we play it. For example...

Science and Subjectivism in Audio
The "valve sound" is one phenomenon that may have a real existence; it has been known for a long time that listeners sometimes prefer to have a certain amount of second-harmonic distortion added in, [13] and most valve amplifiers provide just that, due to grave difficulties in providing good linearity with modest feedback factors. While this may well sound nice, hi-fi is supposedly about accuracy, and if the sound is to be thus modified it should be controllable from the front panel by a 'niceness' knob.
:lol: I love the idea of a niceness knob!

Call me an arm-chair cynic, by all means, but it seems that the author of this piece builds amplifiers.
 
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It would appear to come down to this: a hifi system either reproduces music satisfactorily, or it does not! If it does not, then, plainly it is not hifi, or anything even approaching it.

I don't even pretend to think that all equipment that rates "hifi" sounds the same. It doesn't. In an ideal world, of course, it would, because it would be reproducing the sound from the media with high fidelity, ie, truth. In the same ideal world, that media would also be true to the original performance. Doubtless, there are engineers who try to achieve this ideal, rather than aiming to blast teenage ears with loudness. It is probably also equally valid to include the mixing desk as part of the creative process, and part of creating what musicians want to be heard: it is still fidelity to the artistic intention, if not to the exact sounds as played on the instruments.

So, when this medium reaches our houses, the music is going to sound different, according to every factor from what the medium actually is to the pieces of equipment used in its reproduction and the acoustics of the room in which it is played. Oh, and the listener's ears; that should be obvious, but it is easy to forget.

According to the link previously givenWhat? No pace? No rhythmic stability? Well, apparently not.

Although some are more or less familiar with the sound of real musical instruments, there cannot be many recordings in our collections where we were actually present at the performance. Therefore, we are not actually in a position to assess the fidelity of the recording or its reproduction on our equipment.

We certainly can differentiate between, say, equipment-chain-a and equipment-chain-b down to a level of detail (eg being able to hear more of a plucked string from pluck through to decay, no doubt to to different frequency response and dynamic range) and certainly, all of these details contribute to the overall listening experience --- but do we need the language of the overblown amateur wine taster to describe this? Do we need to talk in pseudo-technical terms about something that is either technically describable, or subjective.

As I think about these things (And I probably wouldn't have thought very much about them if I hadn't joined this forum :) ) I am coming to think that, over and above the practical plucked-string stuff, people have individual preference for different flavours of sound (flavour? Have I broken my own rule here? ;)). We do not know what the original performance sounded like, but we know what we like it to sound like when we play it. For example...

Science and Subjectivism in Audio
:lol: I love the idea of a niceness knob!

Call me an arm-chair cynic, by all means, but it seems that the author of this piece builds amplifiers.

There are many such articles (like the ones you provided links to) which provide opposing viewpoints and many such folks also builds amps and such. From what I understand, they all have something to sell ;)

Lets take an example of two amplifiers which measure pretty much similar when it comes to Noise, frequency response, distortion, and time-based errors. Will they both sound very similar ? Will they both perform very similar with regards to all parameters that makes music enjoyable ?

How will you quantify such differences ? What causes such differences ?

You can achieve the same or pretty much similar numbers for all these three measurable parameters via hundreds of different valid electronic designs /methods. I am sure some denon av reciever will have pretty much similar measurable numbers as a gamut or symphonic line amp.

But there will always be fundemental differences in the way all these devices will sound.

How do you figure out what caused these differences ?
 
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Lets take an example of two amplifiers which measure pretty much similar when it comes to Noise, frequency response, distortion, and time-based errors. Will they both sound very similar ?

Frequency response is a measurement used for linear systems. Two linear systems with identical frequency response are indistinguishable.

Distortion means that the system is non-linear. Two systems with equal THD (across frequencies and gain levels) are not identical. They can distort the input differently.

Non-linear behavior is hard to characterize. But it is still well within the limits of engineering/science.

(Noise adds to the signal. AFAIK, noise floor in an amplifier can be made really low. Not sure what a time-based error in amplifier is.)
 
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Some people have something to sell, some offer some good advice; others talk like wine tasters. Any can be wrong ... or right!

It is very difficult: we do need some way to communicate, and we are not all technicians. I am not a technician! (But I'm trying to learn).

What I can gather from "your" guy (hey, it really isn't personal ;)) is that he likes vinyl, which of course, you do too. I've got nothing against it: as you might have gathered from some of my posts, I have emotional investment in shellac, let alone Vinyl, even though I am not following the vinyl groove these days.

However, I do agree that a kind of subjective superstition has taken over from objective reality in the hifi world --- and when it comes to selling stuff, it is plain to see which of the audiophool-speak or the plain-speak camps do the most selling: a huge section of the industry is based on this wine-taste speak, and a lot of stuff is sold that has no rational basis whatsoever, from cable to crystals.

As far as I can see, neither Ethan Winer nor Douglas Self have anything at all to sell me. In fact, their freely given common sense is most likely to seriously reduce even my ambition to empty my wallet in a hifi shop. I write as someone who once did spend about rs8,000 on a power cable. Never again!

(Not that the gift of a few lakh, on condition it be spent on hifi, wouldn't make me happy. I'm sure I could improve on my now rather old system)

I don't mind being told that certain equipment may sold warm, cold, bright, have too much treble, overpowering bass, is well balanced, is airy, has a sense of space ... all sensible stuff (that a technician probably could translate into frequency response and dynamic range, etc). But rhythmic stability? Oh, come one! How did that guy ever get a job? Pages and pages of pseudo-speak to say, "I like Vinyl?" It doesn't wash.

Which is, I suppose why I don't very often read articles on the Stereophile site! Even though they do have a very good one on digital sound.
 
Lets take an example of two amplifiers which measure pretty much similar when it comes to Noise, frequency response, distortion, and time-based errors. Will they both sound very similar ? Will they both perform very similar with regards to all parameters that makes music enjoyable ?

How will you quantify such differences ? What causes such differences ?

But there will always be fundemental differences in the way all these devices will sound.

Bob Carver proved that two amplifiers can be made to measure and sound identical. Please refer to Bob Carver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The original article - The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com. This article was discussed in another thread sometime ago.

The final comment - "The Final Achievement
After this last bit of tweaking, where Bob was able to reinstate his 70dB null while driving a very difficult load, we now had what sounded like two absolutely identical amplifiers. No matter what speakers we used, every "difference" we thought we had isolated turned out to be there, in equal quantity, when we swapped amplifiers.

This time, the listening went on through the whole afternoon and much of the evening, until all of us were listened out. More leisurely listening, refreshed by a good night's sleep, failed to turn up anything. As far as we could determine, through careful comparisons and nit-picking criticisms, the two amplifiers were, in fact, sonically identical. It is a gross understatement to say that we were flabbergasted!"


Cheers
 
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Sorry have not read any articles in this thread. But by 'pace' are we talking about amplifier slew rate ?
Slew Rate
If yes then it can be measured. And it does affect the sound.
Regards.
 
Bob Carver proved that two amplifiers can be made to measure and sound identical. Please refer to Bob Carver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The original article - The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com. This article was discussed in another thread sometime ago.

The final comment - "The Final Achievement
After this last bit of tweaking, where Bob was able to reinstate his 70dB null while driving a very difficult load, we now had what sounded like two absolutely identical amplifiers. No matter what speakers we used, every "difference" we thought we had isolated turned out to be there, in equal quantity, when we swapped amplifiers.

This time, the listening went on through the whole afternoon and much of the evening, until all of us were listened out. More leisurely listening, refreshed by a good night's sleep, failed to turn up anything. As far as we could determine, through careful comparisons and nit-picking criticisms, the two amplifiers were, in fact, sonically identical. It is a gross understatement to say that we were flabbergasted!"


Cheers

You totally missed it Venkat.
Carver said that two amplifiers can be made to sound the same, that is all. He did not say they measure the same. In fact, during this challenge he was not allowed to even see the other amplifier. He only listened to it blind and tried to replicate the sound in his design. The two did not measure the same but sounded the same...that is the take away, exactly opposite to what you wrote.
 
Well, we are all nitpicking on the sound, are we not? The general saying has been, 'to hell with measurements, my ears tells me it is different. If you cannot hear the difference go check your ears'.

So if they sound they sound the same to experienced users, that is more of a proof.

Cheers
 
So if they sound they sound the same to experienced users, that is more of a proof.

Cheers

But they dont measure the same...which is the proof that measurements have some severe limitations when it comes to conveying sound quality.
 
Sorry have not read any articles in this thread. But by 'pace' are we talking about amplifier slew rate ?
Slew Rate
If yes then it can be measured. And it does affect the sound.
Thanks. It is one of the several terms I come across that I don't properly understand. Would it be reasonable to translate this, in very lay terms, to, "the ability to keep up?"

Here is another apparently simple definition.

So, then... what is pace?
 
But they dont measure the same...which is the proof that measurements have some severe limitations when it comes to conveying sound quality.

I have always been maintaining that measurements ensure that an amplifier or, for that matter, any audio or video instrument meets a certain 'measurable' minimal standard such as SNR etc. These are what I call data that can be relied upon. Beyond this, everything goes into the subjective world of 'ears'. And that is why you like one amp, and I like another.

Cheers
 
On one side you maintain that one's trained 'ears' make all the difference and on the other hand you also advocate 'measurable' minimal standard. :rolleyes:

Guys at the end of the day its all about enjoying the music. I genuinely do not think it matters what system one has. Each one hears differently which is why there are so many amp and speaker manufacturers, world over. When it comes to television and other gadgets you will only find a handful of manufacturers.
 
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