Philips 242 Turntable Cart and Needle

Hello All,
I have a Philips electronic 242 turntable which is in perfect working condition. I had changed the original cartdrige and stylus to classic 700 which work very well till few days back when the stylus got damaged. I was fortunate to get a spare stylus from a shop in Delhi .
However while I was searching for replacement needle for my 242 model , I was very surprised that the Philips catalouge had nothing called electronic 242, but models like GA 212, 312 etc. Can anyone tell me more on philips electronic 242 model?
 
Hello All,
I have a Philips electronic 242 turntable which is in perfect working condition. I had changed the original cartdrige and stylus to classic 700 which work very well till few days back when the stylus got damaged. I was fortunate to get a spare stylus from a shop in Delhi .
However while I was searching for replacement needle for my 242 model , I was very surprised that the Philips catalouge had nothing called electronic 242, but models like GA 212, 312 etc. Can anyone tell me more on philips electronic 242 model?

Is it made in India or Holland?
 
As per my opinion changing the cartridge and the needle seems to be only solution for such specifically designed parts which are very hard to find from any platform
Thanks
 
My personal opinion would be to dump the existing cartridge, stay away from the Rs.500 ceramic variants, invest a little bit more and go in for an Audio Technica AT91 (around Rs.1500) or a bit higher still, the Shure M44-7 (around Rs.3500). These are fantastic cartridges for their price point and will serve you well. I use the M44-7 and they will play almost any kind of record under the sun (they are superb for tracking older records)

where can i find this original Audio Technica AT91? Any specific recommendations?
 
Sorry to flog an old thread,but I too would like to invest in a new cartridge. My budget would be around 4-5k. Thanks.
 
The 242 is a pretty decent turntable, great for an introduction to vinyl. Back in the day, they sold in the 1000s. Nice to see some of them pop up every now and then. I've heard them play and thought they were pretty good, except for the fact that they needed some tweeking to reduce rumble. Good point, on not overspending on a cartridge though, but then, to a great extent, what is heard depends on the quality of the cartridge, stylus and the tone arm tracking. If you have someone travelling to the United States and back, not a bad idea to ask him/her to carry one for you. If you go with that approach, you'd get an AT91 for as little as Rs.800/- (aprox).
I am doing just that to get an AT120USB which comes with AT95E and buy a spare ATN95EN where the AT95E would go with GA242 and ATN95EN get up on Audio-Technica 120 once landed. Since there may be some time, I had been dabbling withthe idea of something within 3.5-5k INR for an eliptical. Continuing to use conical scares me on the life of my LPs. The collection is over 50 yrs and the old 78 records are close to 95 yrs.
Here too, there is a big question. The old records use a different mono stylus for 78 and their life is poor. They also cost more than the 78 stereo for vinyl 78 records. I have over 70 of those 1/2 kg records and looking for a Direct Drive, the good and affordable one ex-North America is AT120. If I drop the idea of investing in a three speed which comes only with 120 coz playing vintage 78 is an expensive matter on Audio Technica, I get a AT60 at nearly half the price, BUT, it is belt drive. Everything else is same machine. However, the saving from 120 to 60 is huge (nearly INR 20k). In much less than 10k, I could go ahead and look for a hand-primed gramophone and needles which were meant for those records.

Reubensm, could you help me reaching a considered decision weighing in on the Direct-Drive to Belt-Drive and segration of Vintage 78 records be played on a separate player dedicated to the real vintage stuff, placed well apart away from the vinyls (largely 33 1/3)?

Anyone else who has a strong reason to go for Audio Technica Direct Drive or Stick to Belt Drive and dedicate a corner for vintage78 records??
 
Hi Uc Sam. I have replied to your other query. Am sure Reubensm will give you the necessary information. Just a few points from my side.
1. AT120 turntables are now fitted with AT VM 95E cart as OE. This is different from older AT 95E, which was OE on the older AT 120 series. 2. In case you want to play 78 rpm then you will have to invest in a 78 rpm stylus for the Audio Technica (available for the VM series).
3. Your GCO32 is an option if u don't want to invest in a AT 120 . This is better than spring wound gramophones tracking at 10 grams or much more. Cartridge is available, but rare.
4. AT 60 turntable is totally different class than AT120. This has a heavier non- VTF/anti-skate adjustable tone arm and considered basic, but quite good sounding turntable. No 78 rpm on this as you would be aware.
We would be happy to know what you decide.
 
You can also buy the stylus from here
Phonograph Stylus : Audio-technica > ATN3601

Regards,
Sachin
Hi Sachin,

For Philips GA242
Does ATN3600, ATN3601 and AT3600 qualify with AT91 Cartridge as a universal fit and take ATN91 conical Stylus also? The combinations available from this source give a choice/ option. Which would you recommend?




@reubensm I recall you recommended AT91 and Shure M44-7. I found sticking to AT due to the cost being competitive in vinyle world (rather aggressive). Your advise with the above three or any other that you may find with Amazon Ca, as amazon is the cheapest of all stores.

Hope I get the cart and stylus for GA242 finalised with this.

Look forward to your input.
 
Hi Uc Sam. I have replied to your other query. Am sure Reubensm will give you the necessary information. Just a few points from my side.
1. AT120 turntables are now fitted with AT VM 95E cart as OE. This is different from older AT 95E, which was OE on the older AT 120 series. 2. In case you want to play 78 rpm then you will have to invest in a 78 rpm stylus for the Audio Technica (available for the VM series).
3. Your GCO32 is an option if u don't want to invest in a AT 120 . This is better than spring wound gramophones tracking at 10 grams or much more. Cartridge is available, but rare.
4. AT 60 turntable is totally different class than AT120. This has a heavier non- VTF/anti-skate adjustable tone arm and considered basic, but quite good sounding turntable. No 78 rpm on this as you would be aware.
We would be happy to know what you decide.
What a timely input from you. I had just finished reading and understanding the AT, AT-VM and while clearing the 78 storm from my mind, I went through all the specs of 60, only to find that it has a different cartridge and stylus. I didnt find the head-shell with the screw mounts and therefore assumed it may not take a variety in replacement Cartridges though may take stylus which fit only to cart that comes with 60. Did I get that correct?

NEXT : As for 78, as I have 78-shellac which weigh a ton and the 78/Shellac handling is far opposed to the vinyl delicate handling. I have done this 40-45 years ago when I was pretty fast and good at switching between 78 and 33 on GC-032. YOU ARE BANG-ON with the recommendation. I needed a seconding to what I had in mind and it also confirms that although degraded sound on the GC-032 with stylus on 78, which is a vinyl stylus, the sound wasnt very original, but not worth a bomb to be spent with added complications of cart change etc. I have heard those 78 on a very old gramophone with a good horn and tunnel speakers. All I needed was a confirmation for now if I could use the GC-032 since it has a mono sylus which I located on one of the websites, surprised to learn there was a stylus of that kind also. Since I have grand old people around close to their 90s and some older, as a tribute to the music of that era, I could play for them. I have a brand new sealed stylus ST/78 (Red/Green) saphire bought from UK some years ago. Once the wheel is here, I hope to have that faithful GC032 kick start and light the fire. THANKS AGAIN @General_sound !

While studying the 60, the belts, carts and stylus seem to limit my upgrades right at start. To save on the rubber-parts (Belts) replacement as I have faced with my available TT, a direct drive makes it less troublesome. Initially, I was woried about direct drive translating humming etc coming from the old school till a couple of people told me that direct drive are far quieter and better than belt in some respects. No doubt belt drives are expected to be quieter, but the direct drives now are equally quiet. Here with AT family, a small step beyond beginner (60), the 120 bridges gap between audiophile and beginner as a first step out of beginner. Also, I would be starting with the VM carts and dont get caught with obsolescence and therefore plan to invest in ATN95EN and keep it on a spare headshell & cart for those days and nights when I would dedicate to some good listening. After I lost a dear friend with whom for about 2-3 years I had been spending several evenings listening to LPs till the morning, such nights had been long forgotten since. I decided to get back to it as it would bring some fond memories. He was a Braveheart who went down in Mumbai Carnage fighting. RIP!

That said, I will stick now with 120 with BT and USB. I hope to enter with minimum quality, nothing compared to MC or those killing carts and stylus which I may never be able to discern the quality with massive hearing loss from the jets deafening sounds and the music assaults my ears took all these decades. :cool:


Solong
 
What a timely input from you. I had just finished reading and understanding the AT, AT-VM and while clearing the 78 storm from my mind, I went through all the specs of 60, only to find that it has a different cartridge and stylus. I didnt find the head-shell with the screw mounts and therefore assumed it may not take a variety in replacement Cartridges though may take stylus which fit only to cart that comes with 60. Did I get that correct?

NEXT : As for 78, as I have 78-shellac which weigh a ton and the 78/Shellac handling is far opposed to the vinyl delicate handling. I have done this 40-45 years ago when I was pretty fast and good at switching between 78 and 33 on GC-032. YOU ARE BANG-ON with the recommendation. I needed a seconding to what I had in mind and it also confirms that although degraded sound on the GC-032 with stylus on 78, which is a vinyl stylus, the sound wasnt very original, but not worth a bomb to be spent with added complications of cart change etc. I have heard those 78 on a very old gramophone with a good horn and tunnel speakers. All I needed was a confirmation for now if I could use the GC-032 since it has a mono sylus which I located on one of the websites, surprised to learn there was a stylus of that kind also. Since I have grand old people around close to their 90s and some older, as a tribute to the music of that era, I could play for them. I have a brand new sealed stylus ST/78 (Red/Green) saphire bought from UK some years ago. Once the wheel is here, I hope to have that faithful GC032 kick start and light the fire. THANKS AGAIN @General_sound !

While studying the 60, the belts, carts and stylus seem to limit my upgrades right at start. To save on the rubber-parts (Belts) replacement as I have faced with my available TT, a direct drive makes it less troublesome. Initially, I was woried about direct drive translating humming etc coming from the old school till a couple of people told me that direct drive are far quieter and better than belt in some respects. No doubt belt drives are expected to be quieter, but the direct drives now are equally quiet. Here with AT family, a small step beyond beginner (60), the 120 bridges gap between audiophile and beginner as a first step out of beginner. Also, I would be starting with the VM carts and dont get caught with obsolescence and therefore plan to invest in ATN95EN and keep it on a spare headshell & cart for those days and nights when I would dedicate to some good listening. After I lost a dear friend with whom for about 2-3 years I had been spending several evenings listening to LPs till the morning, such nights had been long forgotten since. I decided to get back to it as it would bring some fond memories. He was a Braveheart who went down in Mumbai Carnage fighting. RIP!

That said, I will stick now with 120 with BT and USB. I hope to enter with minimum quality, nothing compared to MC or those killing carts and stylus which I may never be able to discern the quality with massive hearing loss from the jets deafening sounds and the music assaults my ears took all these decades. :cool:


Solong
Yes the LP 60 takes the AT3600L stylus which tracks at 2.5 g +-.5g. AT 91 tracks lighter and may not be compatible. Some companies sell an elliptical upgrade for LP 60 tt.
Reubensm has given some excellent advice on carts in his other post. Thanks.
Remember that ceramic carts ar incompatible with new amps due to impedence mismatch. You need an older ceramic compatible amp , like Cosmic CO -30(one example).
Yes, hearing loss is an issue with age. I salute you for your service to the nation.
 
In my opinion, regular belt drive turntables are not suitable for 78rpm (that is why almost all belt drive turntables feature only 33 1/3 and 45 rpm speeds). Personally, I am not into 78s but have a few that I play once in a while. I have always found idler turntables to be the best for 78s even though I must say, direct drive turntables with 78rpm speed options, are good too. When buying Direct Drives with 78rpm speed, it would be good to actually play a 78 on it and ascertain if one can hear/feel the vibrations. The Technics SL12xx series models that feature the 78rpm speed, are good from this perspective as it has a heavy and well dampened plinth.

Also when it comes to listening to 78s, an often ignored perspective is the usage history of the record itself. I have found older 78s with a history of being played with steel pins on gramophones, to be very noisy when played with magnetic carts. I have always played these using ceramic carts with 78 stylus. Comparatively newer 78s which were played on record players with lighter tonearms tend to have less groove wear and play well with magnetics.
 
Yes the LP 60 takes the AT3600L stylus which tracks at 2.5 g +-.5g. AT 91 tracks lighter and may not be compatible. Some companies sell an elliptical upgrade for LP 60 tt.
Reubensm has given some excellent advice on carts in his other post. Thanks.
Remember that ceramic carts ar incompatible with new amps due to impedence mismatch. You need an older ceramic compatible amp , like Cosmic CO -30(one example).
Yes, hearing loss is an issue with age. I salute you for your service to the nation.
Another major consideration I get from your input here is that Ceramics need to be avoided or better kept out in the 78 domain. Since this whole issue of 78 on new generation TT for the present generation amp combination is undesirable, below Reuben has brought out about 78 sounding noisy which is exactly the issue that got me to consider recovering my hand primed gramophone from the early 20th century (my grandfather's time). Two days ago, I took it to Oceanic in Pune, which was known to be doing such challenging jobs in the past, but now, unfortunately, the gentleman who did the wonders for so many lucky ones in the past, sadly passed away sometime back. Oceanic no longer delas in TT and gramophones recoveries. Oceanic is now a simple no brainier vinyl shop with a couple of TT based amp and speaker combos kept for sale.

There is more input from @reubensm on the 78 (right here on this thread #34) and after reading it I need to allow some more discussion on reaching the best solution with the following in mind. That there is a Mono Cart by AT ( https://www.audio-technica.com/en-ca/catalog/product/view/id/3910/s/at-mono3-sp/category/171/ ) and there could be equivalents too, which fit on the AT120 TT coming with the factory fit 1/2" headshell. This Mono Cart is for 78 Shellac, exclusively. This option was dropped by me due cost consideration as opposed to using the Philips GC 032 (idiler wheel drive) with its 78 stylus. Since my past experience and that of Reubensm too on the sound output on GC 032 with stylus on 78 for shellac records (not 78 vinyl) was like a disused old dry bicycle screeching and clawing as though the speaker baffles would tear off. I used to reserve playing them on "must play" ocassions.

Now that ceramics are out, and the quality of sound of 78 shellac on vinyl 78 stylus is not so pleasant, this whole job gets agriculture ;)
It cant be that class which we worked for all these decades. Without the steel needles on the babaji's biascope, as also experienced by Reubensm, there is little or no room to work towards improving with old tools and platforms. Without doing it the German and Russia way, where size does matter :) I am compelled to re-consider going in for the high cost Mono Cart option. Nothing may come cheap and everything will have a price tag. I did flirt with the idea for long, but now that I have veterans here, would it be wise to take the plunge with the AT Mono03 from AT, the only cart with stylus meant for 78 shellac or do you think it is not worth the effort and cost one must stay with hand primed HMV.

I guess the obvious question comes is, what does one want? Or, look at it from another angle - is it going to be just a collector's passion, or a demonstration of a passion brought to life with new generation machine. I see what I would achieve and why I am working to recover it. I have many who wish to listen to old records. my mother too directed me to get the old horn fixed and that she and some of her friends would like to hear it. If the quality of output with Mono03 from AT turns out to be good, we could record that music and I would gladly gift to old music fans. Also, this route may finally be helpful for some to expand their inventory from 33/45 to 78.

What @reubensm has brought out is that for these 1/2 kg 78rpm shellac records, there is a need to have a strong drive and possibly a russian size reading the grooves. This one key factor gets achieved at the base level of Audiotechnica three speed block. The higher models are a little heavier adding up to stability and when they must be direct drive, it adds up to what @reubensm pointed out that when it comes to 78, one needs direct drive.
 
In my opinion, regular belt drive turntables are not suitable for 78rpm (that is why almost all belt drive turntables feature only 33 1/3 and 45 rpm speeds). Personally, I am not into 78s but have a few that I play once in a while. I have always found idler turntables to be the best for 78s even though I must say, direct drive turntables with 78rpm speed options, are good too. When buying Direct Drives with 78rpm speed, it would be good to actually play a 78 on it and ascertain if one can hear/feel the vibrations. The Technics SL12xx series models that feature the 78rpm speed, are good from this perspective as it has a heavy and well dampened plinth.

Also when it comes to listening to 78s, an often ignored perspective is the usage history of the record itself. I have found older 78s with a history of being played with steel pins on gramophones, to be very noisy when played with magnetic carts. I have always played these using ceramic carts with 78 stylus. Comparatively newer 78s which were played on record players with lighter tonearms tend to have less groove wear and play well with magnetics.
@reubensm , I ended up replying to your inputs on #35, in @General_sound inputs.
Please go through it and if you could discuss the cost vs benefit of paying the price of AT Mono03, a Moving Coil on AT120 for 78rpm Shellac as opposed to playing 78 Shellac on GC 032 idler wheel drive TT with its 78 selections?


I see everything seems to fall in place with AT120 and this mono cart. Right tool for the right job. Direct drive, a dedicated cart and stylus. I am not too sure, but the cost of his cart is somewhere upwards of US 180. It is available at very few stores but not with Audio_Technica. Original Japanese mfg.

The cost in India is over INR 33k https://www.desertcart.in/products/...p-mc-type-moving-coil-mono-cartridge-japan-im
The cost in some stores across the world is about USD 200 (Plus cartage charges and duty as applicable).
The AT LP120 TT with Headshell, Cart, stylus, USB and Bluetooth is about US 400.
I am not sure if there are alternatives which could be in MM and go with At LP120 Tonearm Fitting. Whether the HS6 headshell itself have a compatible cart to play Shellac 78 records, is also not known.

Do give it a thought please.

Solong
Cheers
 

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Thank you Reubensm, could you also suggest suitable cartridge model as an upgrade for this turntable.
Personally, I have always been a big fan of Shure Cartridges and other than the odd Ortofon and Stanton, I have almost always used Shure. The best Shure cartridge I have heard in this segment is the Shure M75-6s with its original N75 stylus. Dad and I have listened to hours and hours of records on this cartridge and it was really enjoyable.
 
@reubensm , I ended up replying to your inputs on #35, in @General_sound inputs.
Please go through it and if you could discuss the cost vs benefit of paying the price of AT Mono03, a Moving Coil on AT120 for 78rpm Shellac as opposed to playing 78 Shellac on GC 032 idler wheel drive TT with its 78 selections?


I see everything seems to fall in place with AT120 and this mono cart. Right tool for the right job. Direct drive, a dedicated cart and stylus. I am not too sure, but the cost of his cart is somewhere upwards of US 180. It is available at very few stores but not with Audio_Technica. Original Japanese mfg.

The cost in India is over INR 33k https://www.desertcart.in/products/...p-mc-type-moving-coil-mono-cartridge-japan-im
The cost in some stores across the world is about USD 200 (Plus cartage charges and duty as applicable).
The AT LP120 TT with Headshell, Cart, stylus, USB and Bluetooth is about US 400.
I am not sure if there are alternatives which could be in MM and go with At LP120 Tonearm Fitting. Whether the HS6 headshell itself have a compatible cart to play Shellac 78 records, is also not known.

Do give it a thought please.

Solong
Cheers
For a start, if I were to play 78s, I would definitely go for a mono cartridge as they somehow seem to be more forgiving when it comes to groove inconsistencies, surface noise and turntable rumble. The key to owning a 78 collection is to know the usage history of each record. This is close to impossible especially if records are purchased from shops or vendors. From my experience, magnetic cartridges for 78s produce better sonics but are very sensitive to groove distortion, groove and surface noise and if your 78 happens to have a deepish scratch or a slight crack, a cracker would burst through your speakers each time the stylus runs over it. A mono ceramic cartridge preferably from the likes of Sonotone (if you have access to international markets) or HMV, Philips and EEI if you are looking to purchase in India, is the best option. A flip stylus with microgroove on one side and 78 on the other gives you the option of using this setup for playing very old and worn microgroove records as well. Ceramic cartridges sound bad as almost all contemporary users are not familiar with how to connect them to an amplifier. One would require a passive input impedance balancing network (with a slight loss of gain) or a dedicated phonostage (without loss of gain) for excellent sound quality. For playing 78s, a scratch filter could be useful or if you are building a DIY circuit for the purpose, using variable cartridge impedance loading can control the noise to some extent as illustrated in this circuit (the variable resistor VR between the cartridge and the circuit serves the purpose).

PS: It is a complete misconception that ceramic cartridges damage your valuable records. Yes, they will if they are used on cheap turntables with heavy-weight tonearm tracking, and with misaligned, worn or damaged stylii. The routine of appropriately setting the tonearm calibration, caring for the record and stylus, and more so, careful handling, is essentially the same for both magnetic and ceramic based rigs. A true tonearm with accurate tracking can handle ceramics easily with 4-5g VTF which is similar to some magnetics. For example the Shure M3D MM cartridge tracks with VTF between 4-6g.
 
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For a start, if I were to play 78s, I would definitely go for a mono cartridge as they somehow seem to be more forgiving when it comes to groove inconsistencies, surface noise and turntable rumble. The key to owning a 78 collection is to know the usage history of each record. This is close to impossible especially if records are purchased from shops or vendors. From my experience, magnetic cartridges for 78s produce better sonics but are very sensitive to groove distortion, groove and surface noise and if your 78 happens to have a deepish scratch or a slight crack, a cracker would burst through your speakers each time the stylus runs over it. A mono ceramic cartridge preferably from the likes of Sonotone (if you have access to international markets) or HMV, Philips and EEI if you are looking to purchase in India, is the best option. A flip stylus with microgroove on one side and 78 on the other gives you the option of using this setup for playing very old and worn microgroove records as well. Ceramic cartridges sound bad as almost all contemporary users are not familiar with how to connect them to an amplifier. One would require a passive input impedance balancing network (with a slight loss of gain) or a dedicated phonostage (without loss of gain) for excellent sound quality. For playing 78s, a scratch filter could be useful or if you are building a DIY circuit for the purpose, using variable cartridge impedance loading can control the noise to some extent as illustrated in this circuit (the variable resistor VR between the cartridge and the circuit serves the purpose).

PS: It is a complete misconception that ceramic cartridges damage your valuable records. Yes, they will if they are used on cheap turntables with heavy-weight tonearm tracking, and with misaligned, worn or damaged stylii. The routine of appropriately setting the tonearm calibration, caring for the record and stylus, and more so, careful handling, is essentially the same for both magnetic and ceramic based rigs. A true tonearm with accurate tracking can handle ceramics easily with 4-5g VTF which is similar to some magnetics. For example the Shure M3D MM cartridge tracks with VTF between 4-6g.
Waaoo...Reubensm, there is so much more I need to know.

BTW, most of the 78 (almost 95%), are as good as new. I recall when I got those from home, I left several behind on the Record cupboards. So one thing is guaranteed here is that records are in good condition. The noise I was getting from my GP204 with 78 may have been either due to poor alignment, or the 78 was overused. Some of the records were gifted to the family straight from Germany while some were marked as "Not for Sale" and given in India. It is time I catelogue them. The history clearly is confirming original buy and owner. None purchased from sources other than the OEM either in Kolkata, Mumbai or overseas as far back as 1935-40. Perhaps, most of the records are from post WW1 to pre-WW2.
I get your indication on the dedication to mono format of play. Once I get my GC032 up and running, I will check the performance. However, the best as you say would be with a Mono Magnetic meant for 78s. well that scared me and now it seems if that is the answer, I would have to wait till I put that budget up for upgrade.
It is getting more interesting and as Benny Hill says - "Learning all the time" ;)
 
Excellent advice, Reubensm on 78 playback. I also have a collection of 78 rpm shellacs and do listen to them at times. On an HMV 104 wind up gramophone with a 5a(b?) pickup the sound is so engaging.
As regards the cartridges. I have a few pure mono (two pin) ceramic cartridges, by EEI, Perpetuum Ebner and others. These are with sapphire stylus and track at 4-5 g. Playback on a Dual 1019(fitting ceramic cart is a bit time consuming) is superb. On the Garrard 1025 and RC 120 ii, the play back is again very good, through a ceramic compatible amp. This is true mono playback as vertical modulation is not picked up. Remember that a vast majority of modern ceramic, moving magnet/iron and moving coil cartridges are paralleled (summed) for mono by jumpers. Sound here is slightly different.
Now as regards a MC vis a vis MM vis a vis Ceramic, the costs, including a step up transformer for MC must be factored in.
Whatever be your final set up, do take us along the journey, as we gain a lot of knowledge and avoid expensive mistakes.
 
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