Please Help!!! --> Norge 1000 Concerto Gold + Sony Speakers

[rishiguru]

My Norge 1000 Gold + Sony SS-GN88D + Sony SS-RS77D (Satellites)





Total Price Paid: (10,000 + 1,500 + 300) = Rs. 11,800.
I later bought the sats for 100/- each from the same person. All these speakers came with Sony Mini-Hifi System MHC-GN77D. Now he just want to get rid of the speakers.

 

[jaudere]

Ah,
They are bookshelves. I thought that they are floor standers.
Seems that the tweeter is coaxialy mounted over woofer and the upper and lower ones are mids. Have they given any specifications of crossover?
By the way, since you have gone the stereo way, can you tell us how you are going to use those satellites?

Good looking set up. Have you given a thought to positioning of the speakers in the room?

 

[abhi_jollyguy]

I think indirectly this means that sony speakers have sensitivity higher than norge millenium speakers.

Someone please teach me what is meant by imaging/ sound stage/layering etc. Despite reading so many things about music i am yet to understand imaging,sound stage,layering.
All i can describe is 1)bass heavy speaker vs treble heavy speaker vs all rounder speaker
2)the sound is pleasing to my senses or no.

Hi Jaudere,

Imaging is the ability to reproduce sound so accurately that listeners can imagine the sound sources (such as musicians) sharply, clearly, accurately and their correct placement in a recording.

Soundstage is the area between two speakers that appears to the listener to be occupied by sonic images. Like a real stage, a soundstage should have width, height and depth.

Layering is not any term to describe/define any sound IMHO

 

[jaudere]

Hi Jaudere,

Imaging is the ability to reproduce sound so accurately that listeners can imagine the sound sources (such as musicians) sharply, clearly, accurately and their correct placement in a recording.

Soundstage is the area between two speakers that appears to the listener to be occupied by sonic images. Like a real stage, a soundstage should have width, height and depth.

Layering is not any term to describe/define any sound IMHO

Hi,
Thanks Abhi. One thing I need to clarify is that I have put myquaetion in wrong way. I should have asked "how can speaker decide imaging/soundstage. Abhi, your answers are very apt when we consider the question that I had asked.

Theoretically I know what you are saying.I have read about it. I feel that these qualities are more related to other things rather than speaker/amplifier.

e.g. Sometimes we hear an instrument , say group violin, in background. It doesn't mean that the violinist is sitting in the back row of orchestra. It simply means that the gain on the channel that is recording the violin is kept lower as compared to other mics.

So it is the person handling mixer who creates an apparent impression of "depth", that some instrument is in bckground and voice or other instrument in foreground by adjusting teh gains of various mics. It has nothing to do with actual spacing of players/singers on stage.
Similarly if a person moves on stage from right to left and we get similar feeling on stereo because it is recorded with multiple mics and as the singer moves, signal strength picked up by the mics varies to give that feel. You can never get that feeling if the singer is singing with a single mic in hand and moving across the stage.

In short, Imaging is more related to the recording method rather than speaker/amp quality.


About sound stage, doesn't it depend more on room acoustics and positioning of speakers rather than it being a particular quality of speakers/amps.


What I don't undestand is how people get widening of soundstage/better imaging just by changing an am or a speaker without changing room acoustics/speaker placement or recording quality. I could never do it despite trying hard. All I could say was whether the system is sounding better/ worse or clearer or muddy.

 

[rishiguru]

Guys need help again. Since My Norge 1000 + Sony speakers are connected to my PC, I want to upgrade my sound source i.e get as sound card.

Currently, I have am having a super shoestring budget of 1K. hyeah: I know you guys must be laughing but please help me out.

My motherboard is : XFX nForce 630i GeForce 7100. This board has a Realtek ALC888 onboard audio DAC.

---------------------------------------------

Now I got an offer to buy a second hand (8 months old) Creative Sound Blaster 5.1 VX at Rs. 400/--

Below is the pic:




Kindly tell me that 2 channel audio is supported in the card or not & will it be an upgrade from the on-board audio?

Creative audio drivers generally have lots of problem. I use windows 7 64 bit. I went to their website found Win 7 64 bit driver and already downloaded it.

My last question is: Will buying this card have any dent on sound quality improvement? Will I go for it?

---------------------------------------

Here the details from Realtek website :

REALTEK ALC888
7.1+2 Channel High Definition Audio Codec

General Description
The ALC888 series are high-performance 7.1+2 Channel High Definition Audio Codecs providing ten DAC channels that simultaneously support 7.1 sound playback, plus 2 channels of independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel stereo outputs. The series integrates two stereo ADCs that can support a stereo microphone, and feature Acoustic Echo Cancellation (AEC), Beam Forming (BF), and Noise Suppression (NS) technology.

All analog IO are input and output capable, and headphone amplifiers are also integrated at each analog output. All analog IOs can be re-tasked according to users definitions, or automatically switched depending on the connected device type.

Support for 16/20/24-bit S/PDIF input and output offers easy connection of PCs to high-quality consumer electronic products such as digital decoders and speakers. The series incorporates Realtek proprietary converter technology to achieve 97dB dynamic range playback quality and 90dB dynamic range recording quality, and is designed for Windows Vista premium desktop and laptop systems.

The ALC888 series supports host/soft audio from the Intel ICH series chipset, and also from any other HDA compatible audio controller. With EAX/Direct Sound 3D/I3DL2/A3D compatibility, and excellent software utilities like Karaoke mode, environment emulation, software equalizer, HRTF 3D positional audio, and optional Dolby Digital Live, DTS CONNECT, and Dolby Home Theater programs, the ALC888 series provides an excellent home entertainment package and game experience for PC users.

Features
Hardware Features
High-performance DACs with 97dB SNR (A-Weighting), ADCs with 90dB SNR (A- Weighting)
Meets performance requirements for Microsoft WLP 3.0 Premium desktop and mobile PCs
Ten DAC channels support 16/20/24-bit PCM format for 7.1 sound playback, plus 2 channels of independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel output
Two stereo ADCs support 16/20/24-bit PCM format, one for stereo microphone, one for legacy mixer recording
All DACs supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate
All ADCs support 44.1k/48k/96k sample rate
16/20/24-bit S/PDIF-OUT supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate
16/20/24-bit S/PDIF-IN supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate
Up to four channels of microphone array input are supported for AEC/BF application
High-quality analog differential CD input
Supports external PCBEEP input and built-in digital BEEP generator
Software selectable 2.5V/3.75V VREFOUT
Two jack detection pins each designed to detect up to 4 jacks
Supports legacy analog mixer architecture
Wide range (80dB ~ +42dB) volume control with 1.5dB resolution of analog to analog mixer gain
Software selectable boost gain (+10/+20/+30dB) for analog microphone input
All analog jacks are stereo input and output re-tasking for analog plug & play
Built-in headphone amplifiers for each re-tasking jack
Two GPIOs (General Purpose Input and Output) for customized applications
Supports anti-pop mode when analog power AVDD is on and digital power is off
Supports digital microphone interface for improved voice quality 48-pin LQFP Green package
Software Features
Meets Microsoft WHQL/WLP 3.0 audio requirements
WaveRT-based audio function driver for Windows Vista
EAX 1.0 & 2.0 compatible
Direct Sound 3D compatible
A3D compatible
I3DL2 compatible
HRTF 3D Positional Audio
Emulation of 26 sound environments to enhance gaming experience
10-Band Software Equalizer
Voice Cancellation and Key Shifting in Karaoke mode
Realtek Media Player
Enhanced Configuration Panel to improve user experience
Microphone Acoustic Echo Cancellation (AEC), Noise Suppression (NS), and Beam Forming (BF) technology for voice application
ALC888DD-GR features Dolby Digital Live and DTS CONNECT software (Optional)
ALC888H-GR features Dolby Home Theater(software feature)
Applications
Desktop multimedia PCs
Laptop PCs)
Information appliances (IA) e.g., set-top box)

------------------------------------------------------


Thanks in advance!!!

 

[jaudere]

1)yes , it will support 2 channel audio. It can downmix as well. It depends on what speaker config you choose in audio setting.

2)SQ: cant really comment. All i can say is that i have used it some 5 years back and i was happy. But that time i was absolutely newbie. It was for rs 1.4k brand new that time.
At present ,if fact since yesterday i am using their USB 5.1 Xfi card. It is better than on board audio of my netbook which has IDT HD Audio drivers.

If possible wait for few months, increase your budget and go for Asus xonar card which has rave reviews. This audio card that you are planning may not give notable/audible improvement especially because your speakers are bit weak in your equipment chain.

 

[rishiguru]

1)yes , it will support 2 channel audio. It can downmix as well. It depends on what speaker config you choose in audio setting.

2)SQ: cant really comment. All i can say is that i have used it some 5 years back and i was happy. But that time i was absolutely newbie. It was for rs 1.4k brand new that time.
At present ,if fact since yesterday i am using their USB 5.1 Xfi card. It is better than on board audio of my netbook which has IDT HD Audio drivers.

If possible wait for few months, increase your budget and go for Asus xonar card which has rave reviews. This audio card that you are planning may not give notable/audible improvement especially because your speakers are bit weak in your equipment chain.

ok, understood. Thanks again.

Do you think Rs 400/- for the 8 month old card is a good deal?

--------------------------------------------

I have decided to wait and buy a good sound card like Asus Xonar DX.

 

[jaudere]

For Rs 400, I would say buy it. Just ensure that it is fully functional and has original software CD With it. 8 months is not a long period but are you sure it is 8 month old? Is the seller having the receipt or any other proof?
Can you get a brand new card of same make & model in your budget? May be some search on ebay will give you an idea about the cost of new one.
My USB Sound card is a 6 month old used card but it was kept in excellent condition.

 

[benravin]

Hi Rishi,

I bought Sony mini hifi system MHC VX501 10 years back and it stopped working now, Sony service people are saying it cost 7K to get it repaired and they are not confident it will work for long. So I have decided to buy Norge audio amplifier and use the Sony speakers.

These are the ratings of sony speakers

SS-VX333 for MHC-VX501
Speaker system 3-way, 3-unit,
bass-reflex type
Speaker units
Sub Woofer: 13 cm, cone type
Woofer: 13 cm, cone type
Tweeter: 5 cm, cone type
Nominal impedance 6 ohms

Power consumption
MHC-VX501: 190 watts

I have gone for an audition of Norge 2060 and liked it, I didn't purchased yet because I want to hear Norge 1000 gold also. I'm looking for good audio quality, which can clearly render the minute details of all musical notes without any distortion.

Please help me to select either Norge 2060/1000. Other than the power ratings do you find any other improvements in quality for Norge 1000 ? Any idea which Chip is used on 2060/1000 ? Did you checked the noise on audio amplifier without giving any audio input and keeping the volume to max ... Please help me in buying Norge amplifier for the above mentioned Sony speakers.

 

[rishiguru]

For Rs 400, I would say buy it. Just ensure that it is fully functional and has original software CD With it. 8 months is not a long period but are you sure it is 8 month old? Is the seller having the receipt or any other proof?
Can you get a brand new card of same make & model in your budget? May be some search on ebay will give you an idea about the cost of new one.
My USB Sound card is a 6 month old used card but it was kept in excellent condition.

Well the deal is still open. The Creative 5.1 Vx is available in PC shopes at Rs.900/-. The guy who want to sell has the card 8 months old, will provide bill and install Cd.

But at Rs.400 is it worth buying? My motherboard's Realtek ALC888 supports 7.1 channel with SNR of 97 db. I know 100db & above and it is audiophile grade.

The Creative card support only 5.1. But that is not the issue, the issue is I cannot get any details of the card in the net. Details like SNR, etc. And in many forums they say buying this card is a waste of money. There may be a little improvement in sound quality but is it percieble in human ear?

Waiting for your response

 

[rishiguru]

Hi Rishi,

I bought Sony mini hifi system MHC VX501 10 years back and it stopped working now, Sony service people are saying it cost 7K to get it repaired and they are not confident it will work for long. So I have decided to buy Norge audio amplifier and use the Sony speakers.

These are the ratings of sony speakers

SS-VX333 for MHC-VX501
Speaker system 3-way, 3-unit,
bass-reflex type
Speaker units
Sub Woofer: 13 cm, cone type
Woofer: 13 cm, cone type
Tweeter: 5 cm, cone type
Nominal impedance 6 ohms

Power consumption
MHC-VX501: 190 watts

I have gone for an audition of Norge 2060 and liked it, I didn't purchased yet because I want to hear Norge 1000 gold also. I'm looking for good audio quality, which can clearly render the minute details of all musical notes without any distortion.

Please help me to select either Norge 2060/1000. Other than the power ratings do you find any other improvements in quality for Norge 1000 ? Any idea which Chip is used on 2060/1000 ? Did you checked the noise on audio amplifier without giving any audio input and keeping the volume to max ... Please help me in buying Norge amplifier for the above mentioned Sony speakers.

benravin, there are two ways to look at your problem.

First: You want to use the Sony SS-VX333 that came with MHC-VX501. Now for this set of speakers I will recommend the Norge 2060. Actually, the 2060 have more power than this speakers can evey handle.

My pair of Sony SS-GN88D speakers came with one of their top models and are nearly 9 kgs each. The weight denote the size of the speaker magnet and also the thicknness of the mdf board. Now your speakers weigh 4.3 kilos each which is half of mine.

My Sony speakers are rated at 150 watts per speaker, so I am expecting yours to be 75 watts per speaker.

Also, my Norge 1000 has more power than my Sony SS-GN88D speakers can ever handle. So, if you want my advice,

Norge 2060 + Sony SS-VX333 will be the best option.

Second: Budget is not an issue & you want audiophile sound quality.

Options:
1) Norge 2060 + Norge Millennium Speakers
2) Norge 1000 Gold + Norge TWR 125 Mk III

I have not heard the Norge 2060, but generally i have seen in many forums people say Norge 1000 & 2060 have same sound signature. Technically both the amps are designed in the same way.

Performance wise never expect your Sony speakers to deliver what Norge Millennium Speakers can.

Now, the choice is up to you. If you have the cash, go for the second option or else first option. But for sure 2060 + your sony speakers will be an upgrade from your sony deck.

Note: If I was you i would have never repaired the deck & better get a Norge 2060. For your info, I know the power amps & pre amps used in the 1000. I am going to write a review on 1000 from the technical side very soon. Just not getting the time now.

 

[jayantadak]

@jaudere,

Hey jaudere, I was in touch with you last month over an AVR issue, if you remember.

I take the liberty of a asking something related to sound-output (bit off topic though). Can you explain me a simple thing, In a room of 11 x 13 when I listen to the FM broadcast through my audio system (Tower speakers /Denon AVR) I have to raise the volume considerably high, but the same broadcast can be heard very easily by just a raising a bit of volume on a 2-in-1 (radio-tape) unit.
Does it mean that the tiny speakers which the 2-in-1 or a Philips transistor has a better sound-out put.

I think the same thing applies to satellite speakers and the towers, I feel the satellite speakers tend to emit bright and powerful sound throw even on lower volumes as compared to towers (just pardon the bass part). Is it related to the impedance/ohms. Can you enlighten me technically as to why and how ?

Regards.
JAYANT

 

[jaudere]

hi,was your problem with your AVR Solved?

About your latest query, is the listening distance from speakers the same when you are comparing 2 in 1 vs your audio system?
If it is same, then it boils down to 2 things.
1)the reception quality of the receiver in the 2in 1 may be better . So it puts out signal with better strength.

2)the speakers in the two in one must be highly sensitive. Many times the speakers are of sensitivity of 95db/w/m as compared to 90 or less of that of many hifi speakers. In addition, 2in1 usually has single full range driver without any cross over. Crossovers in the multidriver speakers do eat up some watts. However the quality of sound is a compromise.

How do you find sound quality difference between the two?

Some experiment:
If your 2in1 has aux out, connect it to aux in of your AVR. If the loudness of your home theatre for radio improves then the 2in1 has better receiver. If it does not increase, then it your 2in1 is loud because of highly sensitive speakers. However keep in mind that this is a crude experiment. I hardly have knowledge of the preamp section of both these systems. Preamp plays important role here.

 

[benravin]

Hi Rishi,

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. What is the price of 2060, my dealer agreed for 9K. Is it a better deal or can i get less than that.

 

[The Wall]

Hi Rishi,

I bought Sony mini hifi system MHC VX501 10 years back and it stopped working now, Sony service people are saying it cost 7K to get it repaired and they are not confident it will work for long. So I have decided to buy Norge audio amplifier and use the Sony speakers.

These are the ratings of sony speakers

SS-VX333 for MHC-VX501
Speaker system 3-way, 3-unit,
bass-reflex type
Speaker units
Sub Woofer: 13 cm, cone type
Woofer: 13 cm, cone type
Tweeter: 5 cm, cone type
Nominal impedance 6 ohms

Power consumption
MHC-VX501: 190 watts

I have gone for an audition of Norge 2060 and liked it, I didn't purchased yet because I want to hear Norge 1000 gold also. I'm looking for good audio quality, which can clearly render the minute details of all musical notes without any distortion.

Please help me to select either Norge 2060/1000. Other than the power ratings do you find any other improvements in quality for Norge 1000 ? Any idea which Chip is used on 2060/1000 ? Did you checked the noise on audio amplifier without giving any audio input and keeping the volume to max ... Please help me in buying Norge amplifier for the above mentioned Sony speakers.

Hi Brother ,

Read you post.

It would be my advice to NOT pair the norge amps. (be it the 2060 or the 1000) with the Sony speakers.

I till recently, had the Norge amp and the millenium speaker combo.
If you wish to invest in the amp , might as well invest in a pair of speaker which matches with the product.
Otherwise it would be like driving a brand new car with adulterated petrol !

If you ask me , being an earstwhile Norge user , nothing pairs better with them then their own brand of speakers. Either of the Millenium MK II or the Tower ones ( but I believe Mr. Bajaj is not very prolific in manufacturing the towers off late.)
I have tried the Norge 1000 gold with a pair of Warfdale 9.1 , a pair of Polk Audio RTi A , however despite these costing almost twice than the milleniums , the humble millenium came out clear winner.

Basically Norge has a very relaxed and warm sound signature, and the millenium speakers bring out the warmth in the setup like no other.

Please do a bit of research before you take the final plunge (considering you think this to be a long term investment).Also the best way to BUY is from the man himself , Mr. Shyam Bajaj , the owner. Extremely helpful and a through gentleman. Will give you all the advice and support you require about Norges.

 

[rishiguru]

Yesterday, I discovered an amazing fact regarding my Norge 1000 GOLD amplifier.

Generally in a music system when someone inserts the headphone jack in the phone socket, the system goes mute & sound is only available to the headphones.

But for my Norge 1000, inserting the headphones causes sound output from both the speakers & the headphone at the same time. Amazing isin't it!!!

One have to manually unplug the bannana connectors at the back of the amp in order to stop thte speakers from producing sound.

 

[jayantadak]

@ jaudere,

Thanks for the reply jaudere. I think the speakers in the 2-in-1 are more sensitive, and so do the other boom boxes which give a powerful sound from a compact all rolled-in-one device.

The AVR issue is in status-quo situation. At the moment I am putting up with it. But definitely I am going for an upgrade. As I have told you, I am using a Denon 1604, and would be going for 1611 or the 1612, or rather go for a different flavour Yamaha 467 or the 471. I heard the Yammys are good for movies.

Do drop in when you visit Mumbai. Welcome.

Regards.

-- JAYANT. 9833056695.

 

[rishiguru]

Hii Rishiguru, first of all congratulations for ur new stereo set-up and I am glad that u like it

Can u tell me the sound quality and signature difference between Norge 1000 Concerto Gold + Sony Speakers and Logitech Z2300?

Sorry abhi, just missed your post. There is a huge difference in sound signature between the two. Obviously, Norge 1000 Gold + Sony SS-GN88D speakers are more optimized for music, having punchy lows, warm mids & sharp highs without ever being shrilly or boomy type. Just the right balance.

Where as the Z-2300 is more optimized for movies & games but are ok for music.

A fresh set of Z-2300 would have cost you Rs. 6,800/- where as the above pair will cost you Rs.20,000.

So it is a very simple policy, you pay more you get more. I believe both are kings at their respective price range.

No winners & no losers.

 

[Acoustica]

Hi Rishiguru
I should thank you for all that you've posted. I am in a very similar situation like you were 2 yrs back. I have the Sony speakers,the same ones you have. But the problems is that my kids have destroyed the tweeters with a sharp pencil. I plan to use these speakers for a while before I upgrade.Can you tell me the specifications of the tweeter which I plan to replace..
Many thanks in advance.

 

[Acoustica]

Hi Rishiguru
I should thank you for all that you've posted. I am in a very similar situation like you were 2 yrs back. I have the Sony speakers,the same ones you have. But the problems is that my kids have destroyed the tweeters with a sharp pencil. I plan to use these speakers for a while before I upgrade.Can you tell me the specifications of the tweeter which I plan to replace..
Many thanks in advance.