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Query - 2 amps one source

Wharfedale EVO4.1 Bookshelf Speakers

sonosphere

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Hi to all audio gurus,
Request your comments/inputs to following situation:

Background: I have Onkyo 5105 AVR, and I like the surround effect provided to stereo music by NEO DSP processing. However I wish the front channel outputs could be as good in SQ as a dedicated stereo amp. I am using an LG DVD player coax digital out as source (analog outputs are available for stereo amp)

Query:
In case I want to connect the Analog Stereo outs from the DVD player to the AVR and a stereo amp simultaneously (both having independent speakers), using a Y-splitter cable... would this be harmful for any of the equipments in this setup?

Note: I intend to mute the AVR front speakers (thru reduced level caliberation) in above setup to avoid its tonal clash with stereo amp's L+R speakers

Thanks in advance,
 

venkatcr

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What do you want to use the stereo amp for?

1. If it is for stereo music, then there is no sense in giving a connection to the AVR. Just connect the Audio Out from the DVD to the stereo amp and use that set up for listening to audio CDs.

2. If you want to use the stereo amp for amplifying the front channels during a movie, the signal must be routed through the AVR. In other words, the DVD must be connected to the AVR, and two pre-outs must be connected from the AVR to the stereo amplifier. The amp must in turn be connected to the speakers. The DVD to AVR can be a digital connection so that the DVD decodes the signal for amplification.

Actually in the second set up, you can connect the DVD Player to the stereo amp directly through an RCA pair also. When you are playing a CD, just keep the AVR off.

Though there is no harm in what you are suggesting since you have two set of speakers, BUT I see no value. It will be more of a nuisance as you have to adjust the AVR's front L&R outputs constantly. If some body else is going to use the system, they will not know what to do and may end up having the front channels being echoed by two sets of amplification and two sets of speakers. You could potentially also have what is termed as lip-sync problem. If there is timing difference between the amps, you dialogues and sound may not match the action on the screen.

If you see any value in your your method, a safe method is a switch which will allow you to route the DVD signal to the amp of your choice. These are available for about 500 or so. This will be completely safe and isolate your equipment completely.

Cheers
 
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sandeepmohan

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The Y Splitter cable will work but a cleaner approach to doing this is to simply take the line out or tape loop out from your receiver and connect this to your dedicated stereo amplifier. The line outs are normally a pass through that does not run through any of the sound equalization circuitry of the Av Receiver so you will get a flat output.
 

sonosphere

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What do you want to use the stereo amp for?

1. If it is for stereo music, then there is no sense in giving a connection to the AVR. Just connect the Audio Out from the DVD to the stereo amp and use that set up for listening to audio CDs.

2. If you want to use the stereo amp for amplifying the front channels during a movie, the signal must be routed through the AVR. In other words, the DVD must be connected to the AVR, and two pre-outs must be connected from the AVR to the stereo amplifier. The amp must in turn be connected to the speakers. The DVD to AVR can be a digital connection so that the DVD decodes the signal for amplification.

Actually in the second set up, you can connect the DVD Player to the stereo amp directly through an RCA pair also. When you are playing a CD, just keep the AVR off.

Though there is no harm in what you are suggesting since you have two set of speakers, BUT I see no value. It will be more of a nuisance as you have to adjust the AVR's front L&R outputs constantly. If some body else is going to use the system, they will not know what to do and may end up having the front channels being echoed by two sets of amplification and two sets of speakers. You could potentially also have what is termed as lip-sync problem. If there is timing difference between the amps, you dialogues and sound may not match the action on the screen.

If you see any value in your your method, a safe method is a switch which will allow you to route the DVD signal to the amp of your choice. These are available for about 500 or so. This will be completely safe and isolate your equipment completely.

Cheers

Dear Venkatcr,
my pointwise clarification...
1. In this instance, I am not looking for stereo music.
I suppose I didn't make my purpose clear enough in original post... I actually want surround sound thru NEO DSP processing but with stronger SQ in fronts which sadly the entry level AVR's dont deliver. Hence I intended to use a stereo amp for better SQ at fronts (psychedelic tracks of Pink Floyd sound out of this world using this effect... I feel practically immersed in music from all sides).

2. Yes, I was looking for better SQ in Front speakers while watching movies also.

I got the main answer I was looking for, when you say "Though there is no harm in what you are suggesting since you have two set of speakers,"

Another Query:
Your suggested "pre-out" method won't work with my Onkyo 5105 since there are no pre-outs. There are tape-outs available though... can they serve the same purpose as pre-outs while the source is coming thru...
A. AVR's coax digital in?
B. AVR's DVD Analog in (Front L/R)?

Thanks again
 

venkatcr

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Another Query:
Your suggested "pre-out" method won't work with my Onkyo 5105 since there are no pre-outs. There are tape-outs available though... can they serve the same purpose as pre-outs while the source is coming thru...
A. AVR's coax digital in?
B. AVR's DVD Analog in (Front L/R)?

I am not sure. You have to try it out and see. Logically a tape-out usually works for stereo signal. If you are lucky, the AVR may route all Front L&R signals to the Tape Out. Please check the voltage out specifications in your AVR and pre voltage in specs in your stereo amp. If they don't match you will either get very low sound, or you could overload the input of the amp to distortion levels.

Cheers
 

reju

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Why don't you make the following connections:

DVD Co-axial>AVR>Speakers1
DVD Analogue L + R >AMP>Speakers2

This should give you what you are looking for.

Edit: Only if you have 5.1 Analogue output in DVD, then above connection will work 100%
 
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reju

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There are tape-outs available though... can they serve the same purpose as pre-outs while the source is coming thru...
A. AVR's coax digital in?
B. AVR's DVD Analog in (Front L/R)?

No. Pre-outputs are supported only for analogue (L+R) input to Tape & VCR/DVR, respectively.
 
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sonosphere

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Dear Reju,
I have tried what you suggested. The end result was little unexpected. The output from stereo amp* was some fraction of seconds delayed compared to AVR's output.

The drum beats sounded similar to person talking with stutter. You-You know-know what-what I-I mean-mean ?-?:eek:hyeah:
I think the Onkyo decoded digital signal to analog faster than the LG DVD player's own Digi>analog converter that was eventually fed to stereo amp. Audio gurus out there... is my theory correct?

*Haven't bought stereo amp yet, but my LG TV has stereo amp built-in... so used that as a test-example.

Regards,
 

sandeepmohan

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The Tape Out; as the feature suggests will not carry out any DSP based signal so this will not work for you. It will be a plain stereo signal that bypasses all equalization circuitry.

It is safe to use a Tape Loop connection directly into your stereo AMP without any issues.

A complete 5.1/7.1 Pre Out is where the AVR's volume control will come into play but this is something you do not have. This is provided so the AVR can be used as just a Pre Amp. Mentioning this only for information purpose.

I don't think there is a solution available for your problem as you want the effects from the AVRs DSP to be available.
 
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reju

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Dear Reju,
I have tried what you suggested. The end result was little unexpected. The output from stereo amp* was some fraction of seconds delayed compared to AVR's output.

The drum beats sounded similar to person talking with stutter. You-You know-know what-what I-I mean-mean ?-?:eek:hyeah:
I think the Onkyo decoded digital signal to analog faster than the LG DVD player's own Digi>analog converter that was eventually fed to stereo amp. Audio gurus out there... is my theory correct?

*Haven't bought stereo amp yet, but my LG TV has stereo amp built-in... so used that as a test-example.

Regards,

Have you selected the "5.1 channel" in audio output mode of your DVD player setting? I assume you have 5.1 analogue output.

If you only have stereo output then some delay is understood, as it is not being processed as surround sound.
 

venkatcr

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I have tried what you suggested. The end result was little unexpected. The output from stereo amp* was some fraction of seconds delayed compared to AVR's output.

This is called a Lip Sync problem and I had already mentioned this in my post above (#2). In some AVRs you can adjust the Lip Sync, but I am not sure you can do this in your AVR.

Cheers
 

sonosphere

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This is called a Lip Sync problem and I had already mentioned this in my post above (#2). In some AVRs you can adjust the Lip Sync, but I am not sure you can do this in your AVR.

Cheers
Dear Venkatcr,
Can you tell me, under which category of functions in an AVR, this Lip-Sync can be adjusted. I will look under that category in my Onkyo 5105 Manual, if such feature exists.

Thanks in advance..:)
 

venkatcr

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It usually is in the Advanced Menu or Advanced Setup section. I did look up a downloadable version of the 5100 and I did not see any reference to the Lip-Sync. You may have to find some other way of resolving this issue.

Cheers
 

sandeepmohan

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The TX-SR304E has this feature somewhere deep inside the menu structure so I am quite sure that the higher model should have this as well
 

marsilians

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Dear Venkatcr,
Can you tell me, under which category of functions in an AVR, this Lip-Sync can be adjusted. I will look under that category in my Onkyo 5105 Manual, if such feature exists.

Thanks in advance..:)

First of all I am assuming you are not trying to hear from your TV stereo speakes as well as the Onkyo...Use one preferably the Onkyo.

You may not be able to fix this 100% but may get very very close. With that said, can you do some such as the following using your remote :

  1. Click Menu
  2. Do you see an option called "source" or "source setup" or "audio setup"?
  3. Once you select above, do you see anything such as "A/V Sync or such"


Otherwise, you may have to set this in each of your inidividual sources - DVDP, STB etc.
 

sonosphere

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First of all I am assuming you are not trying to hear from your TV stereo speakes as well as the Onkyo...Use one preferably the Onkyo.

You may not be able to fix this 100% but may get very very close. With that said, can you do some such as the following using your remote :

  1. Click Menu
  2. Do you see an option called "source" or "source setup" or "audio setup"?
  3. Once you select above, do you see anything such as "A/V Sync or such"


Otherwise, you may have to set this in each of your inidividual sources - DVDP, STB etc.

I found it:yahoo:

It was in the audio setup. Thanks Venkatcr and Marsilian... you guys saved me the trouble of going thru the whole manual. Onkyo 5105 can delay the outputs in steps of 20 milliseconds upwards. Will revert by tomorrow on how this is working out.

Thanks again...
 

sonosphere

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Have you selected the "5.1 channel" in audio output mode of your DVD player setting? I assume you have 5.1 analogue output.

If you only have stereo output then some delay is understood, as it is not being processed as surround sound.

Hi Reju,
Sorry for late reply.
Yes, I have selected the 5.1 Channel in output mode. And yes the player has 5.1 analog outs. I am using those anolog front L/R channels to feed the stereo amp. Still the lip-synch-stutter is there.

Anyway now that I have found the function to delay AVR output (it does in 20 millisecond steps) will try this tonight and see if it helps to unify with delayed output of stereo amp.

Regards,
 

marsilians

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I found it:yahoo:

It was in the audio setup. Thanks Venkatcr and Marsilian... you guys saved me the trouble of going thru the whole manual. Onkyo 5105 can delay the outputs in steps of 20 milliseconds upwards. Will revert by tomorrow on how this is working out.

Thanks again...

Good stuff. I assume its at 0 values across the board. Start with one channel and go up by 20 ms to see how it sounds and then adjust the remaining. Its OK for all values to not match
 

sonosphere

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Hi guys,
I am back. Before I update you, presenting my objective and corresponding setup below:
OBJECTIVE: To enjoy ambient/psychedelic stereo music (read ENIGMA, Pink Floyd) thru NEO Surround DSP effect in surround speakers whereas the fronts are substituted by independent Left/Right speakers from a stereo amp to give better SQ.
SETUP:
1. DVD player's coax digital out go to AVR inputs
2. DVD player's Analog stereo out go to stereo amp inputs

UPDATE:
Finally got to try the A/V sync function to tackle that stuttering sound problem. This is what I discovered...

1. It was not that the Stereo amp was sounding delayed (compared to AVR). It was the other way round!!! :eek: Now It can't get any worse than this, because there is certainly no stereo amp in world that would delay the amplified output to match the lip-synch to a DVD player.:mad:

2. It's not so bad actually, because this delay happened only when I switched to NEO surround DSP effect. In stereo mode the AVR/Stereo Amp output appeared to be matching satisfactorily. (now I nailed the reason for delay... its the DSP processing time required by AVR :cool:)


Conclusion: To get somthing closer to my objective, I'll keep the above setup same and run AVR in stereo mode, divert its fronts output to surround speakers, while the stereo amp will drive it's independent Left/Right speakers.:thumbsup:

Hmmm... now that would give me almost the same end result as if I am wearing my headphones... so why the hell I am going around doing this monkey business to get pseudo-surround sound. :confused:

Well If I would have been a purely rational guy I woudn't have gone out and spent 50k on a "budget?? system" that a would give me inferior SQ than a 5K headphone :eek:hyeah:. God help budding audiophiles and their poor family members.
Amen!
 
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