Should I go balanced or not?

[indialogue]

Hi guys, as I posted in the following threads - New miniature DACs and Another sub-200 DAC, I've just ordered a Geek Pulse DAC that is being crowdfunded on Indiegogo.

As a part of their campaign, I have an option to upgrade to the Geek Pulse X, which is a fully balanced version of the DAC having the following features

"instead of a standard 1/4 stereo headphone jack, youll find a 4-pin balanced output. On the back panel, youll find two XLR outputs, one AES digital input, one RCA digital input, one TOSLINK input, and one USB input."

"In order to accomplish a true balanced design, we have to nearly double the internal components, including the DAC IC and the analog signal amplifiers. This means that Geek Pulse X uses a dual mono (sometimes called mono-mono") design. There are other internal component upgrades as well. Geek Pulse X will employ Nichicon Muse capacitors in the decoupling stage, and the analog stage will feature a dual mono, high-bias class A module with high-precision, non inductive Caddock resistors"

Now, I do not have any balanced input amplifiers or headphones right now (though my Sennheiser HD650 can be used with a balanced output - just need to invest in a cable), but I'm wondering if I should invest in the upgrade for USD140. Given the improvements in the DAC through mono-mono upgrades, this should technically provide better performance than the standard version right? What do you all suggest? The only additional cost implications are XLR-to-RCA cables for my current system and planning for a fully balanced system in the future - which I'm currently contemplating by going in for a fully active speaker system

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I would have said don't bother --- until I got to the final words!

I'm currently contemplating by going in for a fully active speaker system

Which will, very likely, have balanced inputs.

However, the advantage of balanced technology is that it can carry a signal for much longer distances in a noisy environment. For short interconnects, I don't think this is an issue or an advantage.

"In order to accomplish a true balanced design, we have to nearly double the internal components, including the DAC IC and the analog signal amplifiers. This means that Geek Pulse X uses a dual mono (sometimes called mono-mono") design. ... "

So there is a lot more than balanced/unbalanced involved. If I were you, I think I'd go for the X, balanced, model. Whether it's logical or not. It's one of those buying-psychology things: I'd always be wondering what I was missing if I went for the other model!

 

[indialogue]

So there is a lot more than balanced/unbalanced involved. If I were you, I think I'd go for the X, balanced, model. Whether it's logical or not. It's one of those buying-psychology things: I'd always be wondering what I was missing if I went for the other model!

Yeah, thats exactly why Im going through this hesitation :lol:

 

[jls001]

If you have a clear upgrade path to balanced, then balanced DAC makes sense. My assumption here is that dual mono design and construction will be superior sonically to single ended.

 

[kanwar]

Go for Balanced if you want to upgrade in future. Balanced lines can be converted into unbalanced anytime, same is not true for unbalanced.

 

[indialogue]

If you have a clear upgrade path to balanced, then balanced DAC makes sense. My assumption here is that dual mono design and construction will be superior sonically to single ended.

I actually do not have a clear upgrade path - one fork in the road leads to active speakers like Genelec. Your assumption is what is making me think as well - the mono-mono design proposed in this DAC will mean 2x ESS9018 chips, more beefier Class A amplification and the likes. So even if I dont have balanced components now, I'm assuming there will still be a perceptible difference in quality

Go for Balanced if you want to upgrade in future. Balanced lines can be converted into unbalanced anytime, same is not true for unbalanced.

Yes, thats what I thought. Other than USD140 upgrade cost, my only other expense will be a USD6 XLR-to-RCA cable from monoprice!

 

[Santy]

In the balanced out version, are there RCA outs as well?
I don't think there is any space on that tiny box to accommodate both.
I recommend balanced version but make sure you get XLR to RCA interconnects also if system upgrade is going to take more time.

Edit: just saw you are already clear on it. Pls ignore my post.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

My Echo Audiofire2 is tiny (Hmmm, small), but with balanced in and out. Can be TRS instead of XLR. My balanced cables are TRS/TRS. TRS doesn't take up any more room than XLR, except on the inside for the length of the plug.

Must look at the Geek site again...

EDIT... oh yeh, it has got XLRs.

My only problem with this box would be that I don't have balanced headphones, and I think that it is pretty-much limited to high-end 'phones.

Does balanced for headphones mean the same? That would mean having six pins: I think it just means separate left and right, ie not a shared ground. ???

 

[indialogue]

My only problem with this box would be that I don't have balanced headphones, and I think that it is pretty-much limited to high-end 'phones.

Does balanced for headphones mean the same? That would mean having six pins: I think it just means separate left and right, ie not a shared ground. ???

Thad, most high-end phones have replaceable cables, so you can get balanced connection-based cables (for e.g. for the Sennheiser HD650) if they come with just a normal 1/4" inch plug. The XLR connection for headphones seems to be moving towards the 4-pin (mini-XLR I think its called) standard where the pins are +R/-R and +L/-L with no separate ground

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Oh, thanks. I noticed that you said before that all you needed for your 'phones was a cable. If I ever make my desired move into Audeze land, I think that the same would apply. But, for now, I'm not that much high-end

To be honest, I've never given the balanced headphone thing much thought, but, as I am getting more and more serious about 'phones listening, I should. Thanks for the nudge

Just looked: the LCD-X comes with choice of cables. Won't be affording such a thing for a while, so I guess reviews will come with comments on any difference experienced.

 

[indialogue]

To be honest, I've never given the balanced headphone thing much thought, but, as I am getting more and more serious about 'phones listening, I should.

same here Thad. But I'm going to be sticking with the 650s for a long time because I think I can extract much much more for them than I have so far. So a cable is a much cheaper upgrade for now than a LCD-X or a HE-6 :lol:

 

[asliarun]

I had a similar conversation with Kingwa about this - regarding Audio-GD products, many of which are balanced, and the entry level ones are unbalanced.

My question:
"I have one more question, if you don't mind:
I noticed that you have entry level unbalanced DACs such as the NFB15.32, and the Compass which also accepts analog inputs.

Then, you have the NFB3 and NFB2.32 which have better power supplies and discrete components - but they are pure DACs and don't have a volume control.

However, after that, there is no unbalanced better quality DAC that can also act as a preamp (has volume control).
That is, there is no model like a better version of Compass or a better version of NFB15.32.

Do you have such a model of better quality DAC-preamp with discrete components and better power supply?

I ask because I really like your ACSS volume control technology, and I was planning to next upgrade to a better (unbalanced) DAC-preamp that has a volume control and has a good power supply and discrete components.

I use this for my entry level system (not headphone system) that I want to upgrade over time. But I don't think I will ever upgrade to a balanced system - unbalanced is enough for me.

Thanks once again,
Arun"

Kingwa's response:
"Dear Arun,
The high grade model all are balance design.
But if the balance design change to unbalance, the price different is small , maybe only have 15% different, so we only offer the balanced version.
All our balance DAC while use unbalance output, the DA chips can all working for the output.
Kingwa"

By the way, the unbalanced entry level DACs of Audio-GD also use dual chips.

 

[indialogue]

I had a similar conversation with Kingwa about this - regarding Audio-GD products, many of which are balanced, and the entry level ones are unbalanced.

My question:
"I have one more question, if you don't mind:
I noticed that you have entry level unbalanced DACs such as the NFB15.32, and the Compass which also accepts analog inputs.

Then, you have the NFB3 and NFB2.32 which have better power supplies and discrete components - but they are pure DACs and don't have a volume control.

However, after that, there is no unbalanced better quality DAC that can also act as a preamp (has volume control).
That is, there is no model like a better version of Compass or a better version of NFB15.32.

Do you have such a model of better quality DAC-preamp with discrete components and better power supply?

I ask because I really like your ACSS volume control technology, and I was planning to next upgrade to a better (unbalanced) DAC-preamp that has a volume control and has a good power supply and discrete components.

I use this for my entry level system (not headphone system) that I want to upgrade over time. But I don't think I will ever upgrade to a balanced system - unbalanced is enough for me.

Thanks once again,
Arun"

Kingwa's response:
"Dear Arun,
The high grade model all are balance design.
But if the balance design change to unbalance, the price different is small , maybe only have 15% different, so we only offer the balanced version.
All our balance DAC while use unbalance output, the DA chips can all working for the output.
Kingwa"

By the way, the unbalanced entry level DACs of Audio-GD also use dual chips.

Very useful Arun, thanks for sharing. Audio-GD is definitely VFM, no doubt it. If I could have made sense of their website, I'd definitely have considered their products! What Kingwa says about just 15-20% premium really makes me wonder whether paying a premium of nearly 50% for balanced (in the Geek Pulse case), will be worth it. Thats why I've asked them to provide some test measurements for the balanced DAC (they already have some impressive numbers up for the unbalanced version) so that a comparison can be made on the benefits. However I know that measurements arent everything as well

BTW which Audio-GD DAC do you use? Is it a balanced version and if yes, what are your impressions on SQ?

 

[asliarun]

Very useful Arun, thanks for sharing. Audio-GD is definitely VFM, no doubt it. If I could have made sense of their website, I'd definitely have considered their products! What Kingwa says about just 15-20% premium really makes me wonder whether paying a premium of nearly 50% for balanced (in the Geek Pulse case), will be worth it. Thats why I've asked them to provide some test measurements for the balanced DAC (they already have some impressive numbers up for the unbalanced version) so that a comparison can be made on the benefits. However I know that measurements arent everything as well

BTW which Audio-GD DAC do you use? Is it a balanced version and if yes, what are your impressions on SQ?

It is there in my signature. I have the NFB15.32 - which is an entry level unbalanced DAC with an analog volume control.

I am feeding my Squeezebox Classic optical output to the DAC and then feeding the DAC output to my Parasound power amp.

I am using this DAC as a DAC and a preamp - and have in fact got rid of my Emotiva USP1 preamp as a result.

I do not know how to listen to music critically or describe it as such, but I can say that I really like the sound I am hearing now. I was not that happy with my previous combo. I was previously getting a fair amount of detail but the music was fatiguing to my ears. However I now get the same (in fact better) level of detail, but the music is a lot more soothing and easy to listen to. I think I can say the songs I am familiar with sound "balanced" and correct.

I still think I might be able to get 5-10% more detail if I further upgrade, but as far as the quality of the sound is concerned, I am very happy and content with what I have right now.

On the other point, I think (not sure) that maybe Kingwa is feeling only a 15% price difference because his unbalanced products are built not very different from the balanced ones.

I would still say that if you are getting dual mono type design for this extra price, it is worth it. The DAC you have chosen seem to have very good specs and is certainly worth what you are paying for.

My thoughts about audio keeps changing but I used to feel that amps and speakers are the most important, but I now feel that DAC and preamp is the most important. It already works with a really feeble signal and any errors or alterations get magnified a thousand fold down the chain.

However, please take my words with a pinch of salt. I am very much a beginner in this myself

 

[indialogue]

It is there in my signature. I have the NFB15.32 - which is an entry level unbalanced DAC with an analog volume control.

I am feeding my Squeezebox Classic optical output to the DAC and then feeding the DAC output to my Parasound power amp.

I am using this DAC as a DAC and a preamp - and have in fact got rid of my Emotiva USP1 preamp as a result.

I do not know how to listen to music critically or describe it as such, but I can say that I really like the sound I am hearing now. I was not that happy with my previous combo. I was previously getting a fair amount of detail but the music was fatiguing to my ears. However I now get the same (in fact better) level of detail, but the music is a lot more soothing and easy to listen to. I think I can say the songs I am familiar with sound "balanced" and correct.

I still think I might be able to get 5-10% more detail if I further upgrade, but as far as the quality of the sound is concerned, I am very happy and content with what I have right now.

On the other point, I think (not sure) that maybe Kingwa is feeling only a 15% price difference because his unbalanced products are built not very different from the balanced ones.

I would still say that if you are getting dual mono type design for this extra price, it is worth it. The DAC you have chosen seem to have very good specs and is certainly worth what you are paying for.

My thoughts about audio keeps changing but I used to feel that amps and speakers are the most important, but I now feel that DAC and preamp is the most important. It already works with a really feeble signal and any errors or alterations get magnified a thousand fold down the chain.

However, please take my words with a pinch of salt. I am very much a beginner in this myself

Very useful views, thanks a lot for sharing. Am much more of a beginner I'm sure so its always great to hear about other setups and views