I am surprised ppl are ignoring this while beating around the bush with "feel of sound" theory.
SID - Sound Improvement Disc from Germany
- Thread starter jls001
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I am surprised ppl are ignoring this while beating around the bush with "feel of sound" theory.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Whichever... anyone who chooses to test it out should not neglect the blind test. sighted testing of this sort of rubbish, sorry, sound enhancement device is worthless. You can clearly see how my personal bias might affect the results!
I'm poking fun at myself here, just as much as at any other person, equipment or idea. The point is that it doesn't matter whether the preconceptions are positive or negative --- or even unconscious: they will affect us.
Anyway, not to blind-test, even informally, seems to me to show a great lack of inquisitiveness as to the result. A recent thread featured an article with positive impressions of some sort of CD demagnetiser. I could hardly believe that the guy had not asked his family to try it out without telling him treated-or-untreated. Who wouldn't?
Hmm... dual personality.
BTW, if The people who believe this and want to support world economy, should buy these kind of items.
I am personally against it due to lack of provided data, my theory (and practical as well, being file system and data backup/restore application writer) always collide with these kind of devices. There >2Gbps matters and measured for accuracy.
Idea is good provided I can give PoC (proof of concept). I will buy that. It must be visible from all angles. If it sounds good means there must be fact to prove that.
Why I should believe at these claims which are tested by few golden ears?
No offense meant.. please pardon my ignorance, if any.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Discarding small things since it cannot pass the blind test (as it is currently followed) can be disastrous to achieving a special setup. Many small improvements in the various links in the chain can sometimes add up to something extremely easy to perceive even in a blind test.
In a Blind test, one cannot differentiate between the following.
Between different amplifiers of decent make
Between a 5000 rupee dvd player and a high end dac / transport
Between different cables
Visit a super high end setup; replace everything except the speakers with cheap gear. Pioneer dvd player, Ahuja amp which meets the power specs of the speakers and measures well, all belden cables etc
Now listen and see if you can discern differences. It will end all the discussions.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
In a Blind test, one cannot differentiate between the following.
Between different amplifiers of decent make
Between a 5000 rupee dvd player and a high end dac / transport
Between different cables
Visit a super high end setup; replace everything except the speakers with cheap gear. Pioneer dvd player, Ahuja amp which meets the power specs of the speakers and measures well, all belden cables etc
Now listen and see if you can discern differences. It will end all the discussions.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
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That's precisely my point too. Hear it and then comment. (and hear it on a decent setup which has the capability in producing the full nuances)
Good point. Tomato can not be changing its property and always tomato. That's I am telling - principle remains same of optical drive though quality issues may affect final output. But basics can't go terribly wrong. And can't be corrected by extra attachment if you have serious issues in drives itself.
What makes you think that the post referred by you is 'Gospel'? No offenses meant.
None taken Captain,
I agree that all of us want better sound and are willing to do tweaks, changes that will help us improve the setup that we have. I am all for it and I do those myself quite a bit. But I believe in finding out whether those tweaks actually work or whether we are just being delusional wanting to believe in those tweaks.
In this case case of SID, why not find out whether the optical laser does gets any errors due to light bouncing off in the housing? The only way to scientifically know that is by doing the experiment I mentioned earlier in the post. Its very simple and can give the results if the problem does exist and whether blackening or using SID does improve it. So far, there is no scientific data which proves that CD players have this problem. Otherwise we would have seen some of it in media/audio conventions like AES or IEEE etc. I am amazed that these cos make such big claims but fail to give any results and test data. There is no need for the medicine if there is no ailment.
Why just go by theories or believe in theories by some listening when we can find out that by testing as well? Unless off course, one wants to believe in those.
In this case case of SID, why not find out whether the optical laser does gets any errors due to light bouncing off in the housing? The only way to scientifically know that is by doing the experiment I mentioned earlier in the post. Its very simple and can give the results if the problem does exist and whether blackening or using SID does improve it. So far, there is no scientific data which proves that CD players have this problem. Otherwise we would have seen some of it in media/audio conventions like AES or IEEE etc. I am amazed that these cos make such big claims but fail to give any results and test data. There is no need for the medicine if there is no ailment.
Why just go by theories or believe in theories by some listening when we can find out that by testing as well? Unless off course, one wants to believe in those.
First a disclaimer: I have not heard any of the tweaks or devices that purport to improve music reproduction, as discussed in this thread. So I'm clearly blowing from the wrong orifice. But do bear with me while I blow:
<Begin rant>
I just want to say that there are many phenomena in real life that are not yet explained by science or physics or medicine or psychology or any known branch of science, but they nevertheless exists and are empirically observed and are repeatable observations. None of us seem to have heard the tweaks/devices mentioned in this thread but there are respected reviewers who have heard them in their listening rooms and they have not dismissed them as quackery. If we believe these reviewers when they say ABC speakers' soundstage extends beyond the bounds of the speakers, there is no reason to doubt the improvements the devices/tweaks wrought in their listening rooms.
So while it is always healthy to maintain one's scepticism, it is also perhaps a good idea to keep an open mind for new developments and ideas. Who knows one day some intrepid scientist or layman would come up with the explanations of the true workings of a shakti stone or rosewood cube? There are way too many things that are not explained by conventional science. To begin with, history must be our teacher. For at one time we were at the center of the universe, and all of us lived on a flat earth. Only the ability to quantify and measure and explain a physical phenomena is not a proof of its existence. At the macro level, for example, it would appear that amplifier design is all about playing around with well-understood circuit topologies and mathematically provable theories but we all know that no two implemtations of the same circuit sounds alike. Hence a designer still resorts to listening for fine tuning the response of his baby. It's probably impossible to quantify in numbers and metrics what is fine tuned by ear. But it is done. We under-estimate what a discerning instrument the human ear is.
<End of rant>
<Begin rant>
I just want to say that there are many phenomena in real life that are not yet explained by science or physics or medicine or psychology or any known branch of science, but they nevertheless exists and are empirically observed and are repeatable observations. None of us seem to have heard the tweaks/devices mentioned in this thread but there are respected reviewers who have heard them in their listening rooms and they have not dismissed them as quackery. If we believe these reviewers when they say ABC speakers' soundstage extends beyond the bounds of the speakers, there is no reason to doubt the improvements the devices/tweaks wrought in their listening rooms.
So while it is always healthy to maintain one's scepticism, it is also perhaps a good idea to keep an open mind for new developments and ideas. Who knows one day some intrepid scientist or layman would come up with the explanations of the true workings of a shakti stone or rosewood cube? There are way too many things that are not explained by conventional science. To begin with, history must be our teacher. For at one time we were at the center of the universe, and all of us lived on a flat earth. Only the ability to quantify and measure and explain a physical phenomena is not a proof of its existence. At the macro level, for example, it would appear that amplifier design is all about playing around with well-understood circuit topologies and mathematically provable theories but we all know that no two implemtations of the same circuit sounds alike. Hence a designer still resorts to listening for fine tuning the response of his baby. It's probably impossible to quantify in numbers and metrics what is fine tuned by ear. But it is done. We under-estimate what a discerning instrument the human ear is.
<End of rant>
Divergent but compelling view points. Great going guys. If no one heard this, I'm sure someone would've heard someone (genuinely) trying this. Anyone?
Where are our esteemed members (No particular order) Bhagwan, Prem, SKR, Sidvee, Jai1611, Dinyaar, Dr. Bass, Square_wave, Arj, Malvai, Rajiv, Santhosh etc who seem to have had the opportunity to savor the best of hi-end hifi. (I'm sure I missed some. Just typed the list from my recollection. Any omissions are totally unintentional)
C'mon guys, I'm sure you've heard about them if not heard them. We are waiting to hear from you all.
Where are our esteemed members (No particular order) Bhagwan, Prem, SKR, Sidvee, Jai1611, Dinyaar, Dr. Bass, Square_wave, Arj, Malvai, Rajiv, Santhosh etc who seem to have had the opportunity to savor the best of hi-end hifi. (I'm sure I missed some. Just typed the list from my recollection. Any omissions are totally unintentional)
C'mon guys, I'm sure you've heard about them if not heard them. We are waiting to hear from you all.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
An elderly gentlemen who is one of the most experienced audiophile in Bangalore with a perfectly treated room and perfect system setup uses a similar disc. We checked it couple of times in the past in his player and I can always hear a difference. Subtle but evident.
The key point is that the difference is a minor but important improvement but if you have other problems with resolution, room issues, cable issue etc...things like this will not be audible at all. So in many cases, it is better to address those than look for minor improvements like this. For example, I couldnt hear the difference when I tried it those days in my system since my system was a very low resolution and had many other problems.
You cannot see an ant when you have an elephant blocking the view
Nicely put across. The highlighted portion says it all.:clapping:
Hi Captrajesh
Most of these things work. To the best of my knowledge the SID would be reducing static build up. You could get similar results placing a piece of tourmaline on the top of the cd player. The improvements are normally of a small magnitude. They are more discernible in a system where resonances, electrical clean up and room acoustics are all taken care of. Otherwise those noises will override these marginal improvements.
IME most of these small, esoteric devices of Shun Mook, Acoustic Revive, etc work at the RF/EMI levels which are typically air borne.
Most of these things work. To the best of my knowledge the SID would be reducing static build up. You could get similar results placing a piece of tourmaline on the top of the cd player. The improvements are normally of a small magnitude. They are more discernible in a system where resonances, electrical clean up and room acoustics are all taken care of. Otherwise those noises will override these marginal improvements.
IME most of these small, esoteric devices of Shun Mook, Acoustic Revive, etc work at the RF/EMI levels which are typically air borne.
Thas's been nicely put across Prem. Reading your post along with that of Square_wave, I now understand the issue far better.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I don't question the evidence of your ears --- but did you do a without-knowing test? The full rigours of science are not required: just, informally, for fun!
@sq_wv: that's very nicely put.
I think this brings up an important dimension and ingredient to testing the efficacy of these tweaks, or for that matter any other tweak or change of component.
The chain needs to be resolving enough to highlight the tweak/change. If a tweak/change doesn't bring about discernible change in a reasonably resolving chain (presumably a positive change), then one can conclude with reasonable level of confidence that the tweak/change is of no use.
This is one instance of real-life observation, besides what has been posted by Prem and Rajiv in the past (rosewood cubes and wine glass tweaks).
Guys, please share your real-life observations.
Also, anyone with metal-working and casting skills who would like to clone the brass plate?:lol:
Gospel is required by those who want to believe in things that don't exist.What makes you think that the post referred by you is 'Gospel'? No offenses meant.
The "question" raised is a very valid one.
If no one has any answers to it ... then I get my answer, and so do the forum members.
I think if one concentrates carefully and listens to "with" and "without" instances, perhaps using the same test track that one is intimately familiar with, one should be able to make out differences, if any.
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