Speaker low frequency extension w/o sub-woofer

[newlash09]

I also have a doubt that the speaker manufacturer mentions the frequency range .But only very few.mentions about on-axis and off-axis response.
Also the lowest frequency claimed,there may be a loss based on your Main listening position.Only by measuring we can able to know what's the real values are.

1. Every room has its own unique effect on sound. So manufacturers measure their speakers in anechoic chambers. And in real world, with close placement to rear wall, the bass gets augmented to go below the qouted specs also at times.

2. Manufacturers take hundreds of off axis measurements for their speaker to tune their dispersion pattern. A big speaker will be put in a big room and is expected to fill that room. So it can't afford to be very very directive. This will be tuned for wide dispersion. And posting these off axis measurements will only further confuse the end user . So they put it across very cleverly in their positioning notes. Like place them in a equilateral triangle and toe in to fire one meter behind listening position etc...this is where one is expected to start with. And as every room is unique, start playing with the toe in, and distance till you find what suits your ears best.

Appreciate any opinions you may have .
Many reviews mention something similar to this in spkr reviews "the singer is in the room, i can almost touch the singer, and the players/instrument's are placed in space and also clearly separated.
This assumes the upstream equipment is of suitable quality to deliver this experience.

calls out some of these .

The spkrs i use Wharf 11.2,Xavian with RN803,PMA600NE and DNP800NE ,mogami and audioquest spkr cables,Amazon basic ICs cables get me to a nice center stage and some separation. 11.2 at low volume listening is very satisfactory as the bass ,mid/bass is rendered well to my ears. Its entirely possible with this config the above soundstage is not a fair expectation. A fairly good and better amp PMA1600NE is on the way.

From user experience which spkrs /brand offer this ? Maybe is that the reason that L3/5A is popular . competitors in the top range of Dynaudio,Dali ,Revel,Wharf and others seem to offer the entire soundstage experience.

Just validating my thinking....

Option 1 : If i dont chase low-freq 30-40Hz delivery.The situation iam in as per my understanding to get closer to the ideal soundstage delivery .(Assume competant upstream equipement).Branded,high end models that also may be high priced .
1. BS/Standmounter : Go for L3/5A or designs inspired by LS3/5A . ( excludes clones )
2. BS/Standmounter : Go for higher end models in a brand ( Dali Menuet , Revel ,DBR 62 ( is a gem as per audiosciencereview .com ) and other equivalents)

Option 2 : If low-freq 40 Hz and below is a must
1. BS/Standmounter : Go and add two subs to BS/standmounters
2. FS speakers : Go for a proper 3ways that dont need a sub

I've heard a few speakers where I had the singer in the room or the drummer in the room feel.

Being a huge sunny Leone fan, I will sell both my kidneys if ever there was a "touch the singer in my room" speaker in the market

On a more serious note to be honest. All those qualities that were mentioned, sound stage, imaging, separation etc must first be there in the recording itself.

Secondly, if the speakers are big relative to the room, then room treatment will definitely be required to preserve the imaging from being destroyed by strong reflections and reverberations.

So getting all the above qualities from smaller speakers in a normal size room, With out room treatment in a near field listening setup. Does not need exotic gear. It just calls for proper placement and positioning of the speakers in that room.

So if the above is your dream presentation then it should not be impossible with your present setup.

As I've said , we all like music to be served by our systems in a manner we like. Mine is mainly scale and dynamics. I like to sink in my chair and be awed by the scale and dynamics and the hard hitting intensity of the presentation, like standing first row in a live amplified concert. Hell we can't make out what the singer is screaming, but the sheer energy of the mayhem will keep us jumping. That's mine

 

[RajithKumar]

1. Every room has its own unique effect on sound. So manufacturers measure their speakers in anechoic chambers. And in real world, with close placement to rear wall, the bass gets augmented to go below the qouted specs also at times.

2. Manufacturers take hundreds of off axis measurements for their speaker to tune their dispersion pattern. A big speaker will be put in a big room and is expected to fill that room. So it can't afford to be very very directive. This will be tuned for wide dispersion. And posting these off axis measurements will only further confuse the end user . So they put it across very cleverly in their positioning notes. Like place them in a equilateral triangle and toe in to fire one meter behind listening position etc...this is where one is expected to start with. And as every room is unique, start playing with the toe in, and distance till you find what suits your ears best.

Yes True! based on room and placement, there may be gain or loss ,that's y measurements will clarify it.
However most of us will try to do, finding the best possible placements ,toe in etc,based on our listening position.

But I feel putting off-axis measurements will give some clarity.It may be their marketing strategy ,who knows.

 

[newlash09]

Yes True! based on room and placement, there may be gain or loss ,that's y measurements will clarify it.
However most of us will try to do, finding the best possible placements ,toe in etc,based on our listening position.

But I feel putting off-axis measurements will give some clarity.It may be their marketing strategy ,who knows.

Apparently speaker manufacturers take hundreds of measurements. So which one to share is the conundrum. Even if we split it into horizontal bands of 5 degrees, we are talking about 76 graphs. Which might be of academic interest to a speaker designer than a end user. So they don't bother with it. But there is a subtle maths involved in the placement guidance they always give.

With speakers firing right ahead, we get the largest sound stage, but the poorest imaging ( Though some speakers are designed to fire straight ahead, like dali and pmc. And toeing them in will make the treble too hot ). And as we start toeing-in, imaging accuracy increases at the expense of retracting sound stage width. So the manufacture strikes an ideal balance between the two, that is maintain the largest sound stage as well as image specificity. Let us look at an example:

Speakers to be placed in a equilateral triangle with the listening position, with out toe-in . The subtle hint here is that , when placed in the above configuration, the listener is listening off axis to the speakers firing right ahead by 30 degrees. So this is optimum angle to be maintained to gain max sound stage and imaging simultaneously.

Let's explore this further, in a untreated room like mine, with is a reverb hell hole. I tend to toe in the speakers to reduce the side wall reflections. So Iam not firing them straight ahead anymore. So where do I sit now. I need to draw that 30 degrees off axis line from both the speakers and try sitting where they meet. And from here I need to experiment further.

 

[nn_in]

Appreciate any opinions you may have .
Many reviews mention something similar to this in spkr reviews "the singer is in the room, i can almost touch the singer, and the players/instrument's are placed in space and also clearly separated.
This assumes the upstream equipment is of suitable quality to deliver this experience.

calls out some of these .

The spkrs i use Wharf 11.2,Xavian with RN803,PMA600NE and DNP800NE ,mogami and audioquest spkr cables,Amazon basic ICs cables get me to a nice center stage and some separation. 11.2 at low volume listening is very satisfactory as the bass ,mid/bass is rendered well to my ears. Its entirely possible with this config the above soundstage is not a fair expectation. A fairly good and better amp PMA1600NE is on the way.

From user experience which spkrs /brand offer this ? Maybe is that the reason that L3/5A is popular . competitors in the top range of Dynaudio,Dali ,Revel,Wharf and others seem to offer the entire soundstage experience.

Just validating my thinking....

Option 1 : If i dont chase low-freq 30-40Hz delivery.The situation iam in as per my understanding to get closer to the ideal soundstage delivery .(Assume competant upstream equipement).Branded,high end models that also may be high priced .
1. BS/Standmounter : Go for L3/5A or designs inspired by LS3/5A . ( excludes clones )
2. BS/Standmounter : Go for higher end models in a brand ( Dali Menuet , Revel ,DBR 62 ( is a gem as per audiosciencereview .com ) and other equivalents)

Option 2 : If low-freq 40 Hz and below is a must
1. BS/Standmounter : Go and add two subs to BS/standmounters
2. FS speakers : Go for a proper 3ways that dont need a sub

Great posts here on room -spkr interaction .Re-connected Ophidian Audio Minimos v1 ( v2 was released last week) .
Its a 4 Ohms/Bass Reflex spkrs with Seas/Dayton drivers.They throw a huge sound stage and iam able to get higher volume levels.I could relate to what newlash09 posted on dispersion on BS and FS are designed for relative to room size.Looks like i may stay in the BS/Standmounter camp for my room size as my preferred mode of listening

 

[spirovious]

8/10 inch to dig below 35-40Hz.

Some FS speakers with good 6.5 in drivers do claim 33-36hz as low response.

 

[raghupb]

Some FS speakers with good 6.5 in drivers do claim 33-36hz as low response.

Probably because of multiple bass units. A 6.5" driver will most probably be implemented as "normal" extension.
With multiple units/chambers and associated ports, speaker designers may be able to extract more LF.
How good they sound depends on the driver, cabinet, crossover etc.

I've heard @anirudhchandrashekar's PSB Synchrony One towers
They have 3x6.5" drivers with multiple ports. The spec sheet says 30Hz-23Khz
When you hear them it is definitely believable that they can go into the low 30s

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[nn_in]

Some FS speakers with good 6.5 in drivers do claim 33-36hz as low response.

Even some 4.5 inch mid/bass drivers www.ophidian.co.uk/mambo2.html 38Hz upwards. Difficult to source, though.

 

[RajithKumar]

Apparently speaker manufacturers take hundreds of measurements. So which one to share is the conundrum. Even if we split it into horizontal bands of 5 degrees, we are talking about 76 graphs. Which might be of academic interest to a speaker designer than a end user. So they don't bother with it. But there is a subtle maths involved in the placement guidance they always give.

With speakers firing right ahead, we get the largest sound stage, but the poorest imaging ( Though some speakers are designed to fire straight ahead, like dali and pmc. And toeing them in will make the treble too hot ). And as we start toeing-in, imaging accuracy increases at the expense of retracting sound stage width. So the manufacture strikes an ideal balance between the two, that is maintain the largest sound stage as well as image specificity. Let us look at an example:

Speakers to be placed in a equilateral triangle with the listening position, with out toe-in . The subtle hint here is that , when placed in the above configuration, the listener is listening off axis to the speakers firing right ahead by 30 degrees. So this is optimum angle to be maintained to gain max sound stage and imaging simultaneously.

Let's explore this further, in a untreated room like mine, with is a reverb hell hole. I tend to toe in the speakers to reduce the side wall reflections. So Iam not firing them straight ahead anymore. So where do I sit now. I need to draw that 30 degrees off axis line from both the speakers and try sitting where they meet. And from here I need to experiment further.

YMMV..For me Not required all.Measurements ,only upto +/- 30 degrees off axis horizontally may suffice .This has been given by few manufacturers I remember,but not all.
I beleive a speaker with proper off- axis response will sound good ,Also it's one of important factor to be considered during room acoustics.
Yes Dali speakers has wide dispersion .Also it has been specifically mentioned in their manual not to toe in.

 

[nn_in]

Whats the difference from a sound perspective : Comparison of Classics like LS3/5 vs High end model BS/SMs (Harbeth,Proac,Spendor,KEF LS 50 meta,Dali Menuets,Focal Aria.Wharfdale elysian Or equivalent brands) are compared other than pricing.I do recognize it comes to subjective listening preferences.

The resale value of classic L3/5 seems to be high .

Unlike in a west we don't have possibility to get spkrs home to try so reading reviews and blogs are the major guides.