Speaker Toe-In - Q acoustics Concept 500 with Marantz SA10/PM10

Miany

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Guys,

This is in reference to couple of videos that i have watched lately on the Q acoustics concept 500s along with Marantz SA10/PM10 combination.



Any idea on why the speakers have been toed-in in such a way?

Thanks,
Miany
 
Guys,

This is in reference to couple of videos that i have watched lately on the Q acoustics concept 500s along with Marantz SA10/PM10 combination.



Any idea on why the speakers have been toed-in in such a way?

Thanks,
Miany

According to QA website...they suggest an equilateral triangle. But it didn’t work for me with the Concept 40s. I probably towed them like 20-30*
 
Toe-in in this video seems like lot. Dunno what's going on there.
I think the equilateral triangle is for placement. After it is in place, one may toe-in for best image.

I have tried straight up and slight toe-in.
Straight up gives bigger sound stage.
Either way the image is dead center.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Guys,

This is in reference to couple of videos that i have watched lately on the Q acoustics concept 500s along with Marantz SA10/PM10 combination.



Any idea on why the speakers have been toed-in in such a way?

Thanks,
Miany

Extreme toe-in is recommended by several acoustic consultants and hifi reviewers. In such an arrangement, the acoustic meeting point of the speakers happens several feet in front of the listener. This has a few advantages.

1) It widens the sweet spot as on-axis image response happens at the opposite ear ie left speaker right ear and vice versa. Or it might be even off-axis. A wide sweet spot where the stereo image stays relatively constant over 3-4 feet horizontal plane might be preferable over a narrow, locked-in center image, especially if the sweet spot is catering to more than one person.

2) This kind of speaker arrangement decreases or delays early side-wall reflections ensuring that entire acoustic energy reaches the listener's ears. I have found this to be a inexpensive type of room correction with some of my speakers.

3) Last point is related to psychoacoustics and the way the brain perceives the mono signal that is heard by each ear and converts this into a mono center image. For reasons I don't understand, this apparently results in an increase in the depth of the soundstage as if the center mono image is several feet farther away from the listener in the sound stage.

Of course, all of this depends heavily on the listening room and off-axis vs on-axis response of speakers.

I have also heard that the D'Appolito driver configuration (tweeter in between two midrange drivers) in QAcoustics speakers lend itself well to this kind of extreme toe-in. I have tried it with my QAcoustics 3050i speakers and I see an improvement in the center imaging but no difference in depth or width of sound stage.

Anyway no harm in trying if this works with your listening space and equipment. Hope this helps.
 
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According to QA website...they suggest an equilateral triangle. But it didn’t work for me with the Concept 40s. I probably towed them like 20-30*

For me, i have no toe-in at all. The speakers are firing straight. In my room, this gave me the best sound-stage and imaging.
 
I think the equilateral triangle is for placement. After it is in place, one may toe-in for best image.

Cheers,
Raghu

Yes. I too think so. The rule of equilateral triangle is for speaker placement vs seating position. Toe-in.. different manufactures recommend different settings. for eg, I remember Dali recommended no toe-in when i used ikon-6. Tannoy manual recommends a toe-in of 20-30 degree. I have seen people using slight toe-"out" also with wide-banders. Q acoustics, i am having zero toe-in now.
 
Extreme toe-in is recommended by several acoustic consultants and hifi reviewers. In such an arrangement, the acoustic meeting point of the speakers happens several feet in front of the listener. This has a few advantages.

1) It widens the sweet spot as on-axis image response happens at the opposite ear ie left speaker right ear and vice versa. Or it might be even off-axis. A wide sweet spot where the stereo image stays relatively constant over 3-4 feet horizontal plane might be preferable over a narrow, locked-in center image, especially if the sweet spot is catering to more than one person.

2) This kind of speaker arrangement decreases or delays early side-wall reflections ensuring that entire acoustic energy reaches the listener's ears. I have found this to be a inexpensive type of room correction with some of my speakers.

3) Last point is related to psychoacoustics and the way the brain perceives the mono signal that is heard by each ear and converts this into a mono center image. For reasons I don't understand, this apparently results in an increase in the depth of the soundstage as if the center mono image is several feet farther away from the listener in the sound stage.

Of course, all of this depends heavily on the listening room and off-axis vs on-axis response of speakers.

I have also heard that the D'Appolito driver configuration (tweeter in between two midrange drivers) in QAcoustics speakers lend itself well to this kind of extreme toe-in. I have tried it with my QAcoustics 3050i speakers and I see an improvement in the center imaging but no difference in depth or width of sound stage.

Anyway no harm in trying if this works with your listening space and equipment. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes. These points make sense. If you look at the second video, its a product launch and the first point could be the reason where u get a wider sweet spot over a good horizontal plane since there are more than 3-4 rows of people sitting.

Too lazy to try it out myself :). My listening room is a small one and i really struggled to get a good position for my speakers. Dont want to touch them now :).
 
Guys,

Any idea on why the speakers have been toed-in in such a way?

This type of toe-in is favoured by (the late) Mr Ken Ishiwata of Marantz (the pig tailed guy in the video). He did this even at the What Hifi Show in 2006 (IIRC the year) in Mumbai.

This type of toe in meant for near-field listening. Near field listening takes away much of the room (though not all) effects.
 
Toe-in in this video seems like lot. Dunno what's going on there.
I think the equilateral triangle is for placement. After it is in place, one may toe-in for best image.

I have tried straight up and slight toe-in.
Straight up gives bigger sound stage.
Either way the image is dead center.

Cheers,
Raghu

The QA website actually shows an equilateral triangle and what seems like a 60* tow in.

However I used to sit 1ft closer to the speakers than the distance between the speakers.

speakers used to be 9ft apart and from the halfway point of the speaker place my LP was 8ft. I felt I was more “into” the soundstage at 8ft rather than 9 :D

558FE58D-9527-49A6-8035-B276ED1093C0.jpeg
 
Last edited:
The QA website actually shows an equilateral triangle and what seems like a 60* tow in.

However I used to sit 1ft closer to the speakers than the distance between the speakers.

speakers used to be 9ft apart and from the halfway point of the speaker place my LP was 8ft. I felt I was more “into” the soundstage at 8ft rather than 9 :D

View attachment 48131

Oh.. Thanks Man! I will try this out. Lets see if this make any difference. Though i have played around quite a bit with the toe-ins, never really tried 60 degrees or something closer.
 
The QA website actually shows an equilateral triangle and what seems like a 60* tow in.

However I used to sit 1ft closer to the speakers than the distance between the speakers.

speakers used to be 9ft apart and from the halfway point of the speaker place my LP was 8ft. I felt I was more “into” the soundstage at 8ft rather than 9 :D

View attachment 48131

This is what i am getting for Q Acoustics Concept 40 from their manual...

Q Concept 40.jpg

I think i will retain whatever i am happy with as of now. Dont want to take the pain of trying out different options :). Moreover, i dont have the recommended space to play around with....
 
Is it specifically mentioned by speaker vendor to do this kind of toe-in?
Kef says just keep it straight up
May be differences in implementation

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Oh.. Thanks Man! I will try this out. Lets see if this make any difference. Though i have played around quite a bit with the toe-ins, never really tried 60 degrees or something closer.

With the above mentioned placement I tried straight and 60* tow in. And I finally ended up leaving them around 30* I think
 
Is it specifically mentioned by speaker vendor to do this kind of toe-in?
Kef says just keep it straight up
May be differences in implementation

Cheers,
Raghu

they don’t mention the exact tow angle per se. but the image I shared above is from the official website and it seems like 60*

however 60* didn’t work for me
 
This is what i am getting for Q Acoustics Concept 40 from their manual...

View attachment 48132

I think i will retain whatever i am happy with as of now. Dont want to take the pain of trying out different options :). Moreover, i dont have the recommended space to play around with....

This image mentions the tow in angle too. Around 30* is what worked best for me
 
Is it specifically mentioned by speaker vendor to do this kind of toe-in?
Kef says just keep it straight up
May be differences in implementation

Cheers,
Raghu

It varies based on speaker configuration and driver characteristics. QAcoustics says toe-in. Dali and KEF specifically say don't toe-in as their speakers are designed to have a wide dispersion. Speakers with Metal-dome tweeters such as Monitor Audio, Focal should be toed-out in my opinion to cut down the shrillness :)
 
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