Speakers today in Art Dudley’s words

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prem

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“In the years since the Klipschorn's debut, loudspeaker technology has progressed in many ways. Speakers that sound timbrally neutral and uncolored are much more common today, as are speakers with consistent and effective dispersion across their operating range. Thanks to the pioneering work of people like Jon Dahlquist, Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen, and John Fuselier, physical time alignment of drivers in a dynamic loudspeaker system is virtually a given these days, and the problem of baffle edge diffraction has been identified and smacked upside the head. The result is a great selection of loudspeakers that offer apparently flat frequency response, superb stereo imaging, and great airiness and transparency.

And what did we give up to gain such easy access to all those things? Natural-sounding dynamics. Impact. Pluck. Snap. Body—especially body. And soul.”
 
prem said:
The result is a great selection of loudspeakers that offer apparently flat frequency response, superb stereo imaging, and great airiness and transparency.
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this is not true in my opinion and experience. Most speaker manufacturers employ either standard house curves or of their own to tweak the final output of speakers. Not all studio monitors display a flat frequency response.
To state that most speakers of today are lifeless is too much of a generalization.
 
"And what did we give up to gain such easy access to all those things? Natural-sounding dynamics. Impact. Pluck. Snap. Body—especially body. And soul.”

Interesting - for the sake of discussion - is it though? In my humble/uneducated opinion, I can say that the I can qualify that something as basic (in speaker world) - like the G3s I have; can do Impact, Pluck & Snap very convincingly. Dynamics - Maybe, nothing I can fault, but I have heard better. & Many more speakers I have heard can do Impact, Pluck & Snap with great precision.

For more "airy" words like BODY & SOUL ;) how does one pin point whether their speakers have that or not?

Body- would that be an all encompassing sound, where you are surrounded by the sound? What does it mean?

Soul - Hmm. The soul of music, would that be that if the song gets you tapping?
 
I don’t understand a lot of these poetic terms like soul, airiness, etc.

I have only heard a few vintage speakers. Of those that I have heard vintage Tannoys, JBL, Altecs are fun to listen to. If you want to you can pick a lot of faults in them. But at the end of the day they are fun and involving. It’s like coming back to have the simple dal, rice and vegetable cooked by your mother.:)

When you listen to modern speakers its more akin to eating in a swank restaurant.
 
WOW.....this thread could soon turn into cables do make a difference kind of debate.

But still, please do permit me to put my thoughts here,

Those who have Tannoys and Altecs swear by them. Then again if you nudge them a bit they'd tell you the PITA associated with procuring & restoring such old speakers.

For instance Tannoy Gold Monitors, which are holy grail of vintage speakers are almost 60 years old today. They command huge prices like in lakhs.

And even if you can shell out that kinds money, you face the reality that everything ages, the cone, glue, spider and what not.

It's such a feat to even get a pair then getting the reconing kit and then find somebody who knows what to do and how to do.

In the end, for 99% of Audio aficionado this simply can't work. They may not have the time, money and energy to get and restore all those vintage speakers to their original specs.

So what options do they have.

Good modern speakers.

So what options are there for these 99% audio aficionado now ?
 
I understand the problems we face in procuring, servicing and repairing vintage speakers here in India. But what about those who do not have this issue - in a country like the US where prices are not exorbitant, procurement is not an issue and good service technicians exist? What are audiophiles there buying if they had a budget of around USD 10 -15k, which is what many of these highly rated vintage speakers cost? What is the most popular speaker out there? The answer (which can possibly be inferred from Audiogon or other popular forums) would indicate what kind of sound buyers want to hear (may not coincide with our subjective opinion), notwithstanding what Art Dudley thinks.
 
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Here is my opinion. Before I proceed I would like to note that I don't know who Art Dudley is.

Audio/Video is about a subjective experience, I say this because most have forgotten this even though it is obvious. In the modern era with technology and computers and math everything is being done in this manner as it is seen to be "perfect". While some fields benefit from this, other fields which are subjectively oriented don't benefit from this unless one applies the science to appeal to taste rather than a scientific standard, which is what is being done. I find modern speakers to lack soul in general, so I agree with that part. What is soul? I think this differs from person to person but I think it is the part of the speakers reproduction of music which emotionally connects you to the music, the subjective part. I also believe that it is the imperfections in things of subjective fields that make them appealing. This can not be achieved by looking at scopes or a mic measurement and saying its perfect because it looks perfect on a machine. Personally I don't even look at speakers anymore as I don't really have an interest in changing, and for speakers that have been designed to an objective standard I stop reading as soon as I see this. There are many who can't fathom the true obvious nature of A/V, they only perceive it in black and white, as a "right" way to do things and this is defined by science. In my opinion these people are not true hobbyists in that they don't truly appreciate the subjective experience, rather they just want to be told they have the "best" experience. That's what they care about, having the "best". Modern speakers fill this very well, especially with 3rd party reviewers in whom many people have faith and believe what they say and read the graphs they post. For many even if they don't like the speaker, it is good, it is their ears/brain/perception that is wrong.

I think most modern speakers are like eating bland maggi, it is "perfect" in the way it is supposed to be and a cookie cutter product. While some speakers modern and vintage are like travelling the countryside across the world and trying out the imperfect homebrew food at small cafes and by luck finding the one that hits home. Regardless of if you find the right one for you, your guaranteed a good dose of flavor. The maggi probably lacks emotional connect but achieves what it's supposed to, the local cafes while being imperfect give you satisfaction, soul satisfaction.
 
chander said:
Body- would that be an all encompassing sound, where you are surrounded by the sound? What does it mean?

Soul - Hmm. The soul of music, would that be that if the song gets you tapping?
Click to expand...

Body is where the fundamentals and harmonics of each tone are so well reproduced and hence the overall texture sounds very fleshed out.
Soul is where there is an involvement with the music where the emotion of the singer/instrumentalist comes across and involves you.

While there are many vintage speakers which sucked and perhaps the average vintage one was worse of from the average Modern one. some of the ones which have survived are a touch apart.


Decadent_Spectre said:
...while some speakers modern and vintage are like travelling the countryside acrossw the world and trying out the imperfect homebrew food at small cafes and by luck finding the one that hits home. Regardless of if you find the right one for you, your guaranteed a good dose of flavor. The maggi probably lacks emotional connect but achieves what it's supposed to, the local cafes while being imperfect give you satisfaction, soul satisfaction.
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Very well said !
 
prem said:
I don’t understand a lot of these poetic terms like soul, airiness, etc.

I have only heard a few vintage speakers. Of those that I have heard vintage Tannoys, JBL, Altecs are fun to listen to. If you want to you can pick a lot of faults in them. But at the end of the day they are fun and involving. It’s like coming back to have the simple dal, rice and vegetable cooked by your mother.:)

When you listen to modern speakers its more akin to eating in a swank restaurant.
Click to expand...
One non- audiophile and casual listener was asked by me 20 years ago - How to judge if my speakers are sounding good. He told me play some " Koli geeth" and if the "Koli's" start dancing and get completely lost without drinking then your speakers are excellent. No I am serious - I still remember these words after 20+ years.

Is this body and soul that's been referred to?
 
frend2001 said:
WOW.....this thread could soon turn into cables do make a difference kind of debate.

But still, please do permit me to put my thoughts here,

Those who have Tannoys and Altecs swear by them. Then again if you nudge them a bit they'd tell you the PITA associated with procuring & restoring such old speakers.

For instance Tannoy Gold Monitors, which are holy grail of vintage speakers are almost 60 years old today. They command huge prices like in lakhs.

And even if you can shell out that kinds money, you face the reality that everything ages, the cone, glue, spider and what not.

It's such a feat to even get a pair then getting the reconing kit and then find somebody who knows what to do and how to do.

In the end, for 99% of Audio aficionado this simply can't work. They may not have the time, money and energy to get and restore all those vintage speakers to their original specs.

So what options do they have.

Good modern speakers.

So what options are there for these 99% audio aficionado now ?
Click to expand...
My vintage field coil speakers are 85 years old and show no sign of decay till date.
 
My next set of "hi-fi" speakers. Because I've seen "Koli's" from Versova dance to muzak being played from this in their village. :p

P.S. For the folks not local to me/us - in Mumbai, the Koli's are the local fisherfolk and are the original inhabitants of Mumbai. They have their own villages along the coastline and there is one such large "village" in a place called Versova in Mumbai.
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keith_correa said:
My next set of "hi-fi" speakers. Because I've seen "Koli's" from Versova dance to muzak being played from this in their village. :p

P.S. For the folks not local to me/us - in Mumbai, the Koli's are the local fisherfolk and are the original inhabitants of Mumbai. They have their own villages along the coastline and there is one such large "village" in a place called Versova in Mumbai.
View attachment 78842
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Hari's favourite speakers, Ahuja 😍
 
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